Thoughts on "Super Units"

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**QuietOrkmi**

So after playing against my local meta I noticed a trend of "Super Units" or units that are not scared of 30 boyz led by a nob with a powerklaw getting the assault...

This could just be a squad of assault terminators led by Dante or Marneus Calgar with three squads of honor guard to protect him, an entire seer council with Eldrad or nob bikers With a Biker Boss... Ghazghkull leading 8 Meganobz and protected by Grotsnik...

Well you get the idea...

What are your guys' ideas on "Super Units"... is the only way to counter them is to have one of your own and hope yours deals more damage to the other army?

**Volkov**

Well as guard I realize super units are the new trend. So I take lots or ordinance to compensate

**DarkHound**

No, usually the super-units have one huge prevailing weakness. Seer councils go down to mass fire, Nobs hate S8+ pie or Dreadnoughts. Marneus Calgar's Hero Swarm is a weakness just because of how many points it takes up.

**starbomber109**

The way you counter them is you try not to get charged by them, and shoot them with the right gun. If you must get charged by them, make sure they charge in such a way that you will be able to counter-charge them with something rock solid yourself.

**Gavo**

I play guard, so...BATTLECANNON!

That usually does the job. Just high strength blast weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or a lot of shots.

**GeneralRetreat**

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

Seriously though, super-units are just a part of a balanced force most of the time. If someone goes overboard and spends 1000+ points on it, it shows in the thinness of supporting units. For those that choose to leave super-units behind, they end up with a robust force that is numerous and hard to deal with, but can crumple easily if attacked with the right super-unit.

Balance is everything, and everything has a weakness. There are times when a 600 point investment in a Terminator Chaplain, five TH/SS Terminators, and a Land Raider is a really good idea, and sometimes when it's not. Army composition tends to be a paper-rock-scissors affair. If my regular guys have the tools to engage and destroy your super units, it was unwise of you to take it. If your super unit is something that I am completely unable to deal with because it requires special equipment or mobility that I don't have, it was a great investment.

I would just say take what you like. Both sides of the super-unit argument have validity, and both see varying results on the tables.

**SagesStone**

Generally a super unit will cost a lot of points. Unless you're playing more than 2000 it should generally open up a weakness in the army. Just find and explit the weakness as normal.

It shouldn't have to come down to super unit vs super unit. As most will obviously fall to the weight of dice. Either Mass fire or mass assault will deal with them.

EDIT: Had to rewrite post after it disapeared because of the double post >_>

**Pika_power**

Great article covering it here:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/following-your-heart-using-emotions-to_21.html

**Rivkeh**

DarkHound wrote:No, usually the super-units have one huge prevailing weakness.

I would change that to "most super-units have roughly the same prevailing weakness". packing a decent amount of S8, and to a lesser extent plasma, will keep you ready to deal with basically any super unit, and those weapons are probably pretty darn applicable against other armies. Also bear in mind most of the super units can only attack one thing at a time, must get close to do so, and are vulnerable afterwards, all of which are limitations you can exploit as your opponent tries to win their points back before the 5th turn is up.

**Kilkrazy**

The super unit, or "Deathstar" as it is often called, is a high risk strategy.

If the enemy counters it effectively, it turns into a useless expensive points sink. For example, a pimped Land Raider loaded with a special character and a Termie assault squad could easily exceed 500 points, and might fall in one turn to a couple of 80 point Piranhas.

This can lead to the fallacy of organising the rest of the army for the task of protecting the Death Star rather than getting on with winning the game.

If the enemy cannot counter the Death Star, however, it can roam the board destroying left and right.

As noted above, one of the limitations of a super unit is the number of enemy units it can engage effectively during a game. With perhaps only five turns available, your Death Star can suffer against an army with a lot of small, cheap units because it can only crush one per turn.

**Culler**

Kilkrazy wrote:As noted above, one of the limitations of a super unit is the number of enemy units it can engage effectively during a game. With perhaps only five turns available, your Death Star can suffer against an army with a lot of small, cheap units because it can only crush one per turn.

Depends on the maneuverability of said Death Star. Swarmlord + tyrant guard only move 6 and assault 6, but I almost always end up multicharging things with my nob bikers with their 24" turbo boost then 12" move and 6" assault. I've assaulted as many as 4 units at once with them in a tournament setting (2 leman russes in a unit, a leman russ demolisher as a different unit, and an infantry squad.)

I do like deathstar units because they force your enemy to spend their time dealing with it which leaves the rest of my army more free to go about their job. My favorite deathstar is 30 slugga boyz with mad dok grotsnik and depending on points, cybork body. They're basically on auto-pilot but they're very killy, comparatively cheap (380 I think w/o the cybork), and ridiculously tough (give them cover and they shrug off shooting better than power armor.) They wave their arms in the air and charge at the enemy going "I'm big and scary!" and put my opponent on a more awkward footing and if they die, it's no big deal. Their weakness is grotsnik dying (he goes in the back vs. assault armies) and being forced to move towards the closest thing (it's possible to delay them a round with a sacrificial fast skimmer going behind them), but that's why you take lootas.

Deathstars often die though. My Ork deathstar units rarely survive the game, or if they do they're typically very depleted. It's their job to make my enemy deal with them so the rest of my army can be better.

**QuietOrkmi**

From what my friend wrote...
"Ghazghkull, Grotsnik, 8 Meganobz with Cybork bodies in a Battlewagon...

12" move + 2" disembark + 6" run + ~3-4" assault means I can spread out the unit and hit anything within a 23" radius of the Battlewagon's start position...

The trick is to start spreading them out till they reach their 2" coherency maximum... then take advantage of the 2" measurement from the back of the base to find out who can join in fights...

S8 still hurts them but for every S8 attack that fails to wound, a unit suffers 4 S9 attacks...

I have seen this 745 point unit wipe over 1500 points of regular troops just by avoiding their elite killers... failing to avoid the elite killers I just throw Ghazghkull with his 2++ save and T5 to tie those poor gitz up....

But yes it does have a weakness... killing the front armor of 14 on the first turn before it assaults you the next turn... But by wasting all that fire, you are ignoring the rest of my army which is summed up as more battlewagons filled with boyz..."

**wuestenfux**

I like a full Seer Council mounted in a Serpent.
Its the best anvil unit in the game.
If you add Eldrad and Yriel it becomes a hammer unit.

**Skarboy**

Like someone else said, Deathstar units are risk/reward. Each unit has some form of kryptonite and most of them are solved, simply, by throwing enough regular shots into them that they simply have to roll too many dice to survive. Massed fire from most grunts, elites, and heavy support are more than enough to whittle down a deathstar unit so that it's not as effective as it seems on paper.

**KingCracker**

I think the majority of "deathstar" units become prey to mass amounts of bullets. If you can stay away from them and pour shots into the unit, they are going to take moderate to heavy casualties every turn. Normally those units dont have alot of bodies in it. They are expensive and normally around 10 minis or so. So a couple units shooting the piss out of them will have them running.

And I agree with that article on playing against someones emotions. Ive said thats a smart way to play for years. Say in 2 turns you mow half or more of the super unit down. The owner of that unit is now shaken, simply because its turn 2, they havnt done spit, short of exercise, and are half dead now. That will shake anyone. They now know, that if you crump that unit, the rest of their army will probably become lunch by dinner time

This is also when a good roll with a large Flash gitz mob comes in handy. a bunch of AP1 or 2 shots into a super unit will make them fall like flies(or maybe Im just trying to convince myself that Gitz really are as awesome as I think they are lol)

**Grey Templar**

and lets not forget that not all "Deathstars" are created equal

The Ork deathstar mentioned earlier with Cybork bodies would be around the same cost as 10 TH/SS termies and a Chaplain.

if the termies charged the unit they would probably wound a dozen or so orks, but the orks would get their 5+ invuln and then would win a fight of atrittion by virtue of more bodies.

now if the space marine player shot them up with lots of bolter fire or a vindicator round

it would be different

The value of Psycological warfare can't be understated. if you play an army with some interesting special rules it can make your opponent go nuts.

Armies that can excell at special rule psyco warfare in order of (IMOHO) effectivness.

Eldar, Grey Knights, DE, Nob biker spam orks lists, Ninja T'au(if played right) and Drop Pod space marines

**Corvus**

Does a Monolith count as a death star? From what I've heard the things are nigh-unkillable by anything short of a lascannon. What is its "weakness?"

**Grey Templar**

Railguns, Lasertank destroyers, anything that is Str10.

But the real weakness is Phase out. ignore the Mono and kill everything else

**DarkHound**

I suppose a Monolith is the orginal Deathstar. Yes, its weakness is the strain it puts on the rest of the army. Like I said before, they all have a weakness.

**QuietOrkmi**

Grey Templar wrote:But the real weakness is Phase out. ignore the ______ and kill everything else

That seems to be the tactics to use against Necrons...

**Gornall**

Grey Templar wrote:and lets not forget that not all "Deathstars" are created equal

The Ork deathstar mentioned earlier with Cybork bodies would be around the same cost as 10 TH/SS termies and a Chaplain.

if the termies charged the unit they would probably wound a dozen or so orks, but the orks would get their 5+ invuln and then would win a fight of atrittion by virtue of more bodies.

10 TH/SS Termies and Chappy with the charge would implode that Ork Deathstar. S8 FTW.

**Nightwatch**

DarkHound wrote:No, usually the super-units have one huge prevailing weakness. Seer councils go down to mass fire, Nobs hate S8+ pie or Dreadnoughts. Marneus Calgar's Hero Swarm is a weakness just because of how many points it takes up.

PIE?
I think I'm missing something here...

**QuietOrkmi**

Except that every guy you did not kill I get 3 S8 attacks back...

S8 = initiative 1... means you are looking at 24 S8 attacks back at your face.... if 12 hit and 10 wounds...

That is without counting Ghazghkull and Grotsnik... so add another 5 wounds (9 attacks that hit on 3+, 6 hits that wound on 2+...)

I am also within a Battlewagon and can assault you without getting out...

**Grey Templar**

Nightwatch wrote:
DarkHound wrote:No, usually the super-units have one huge prevailing weakness. Seer councils go down to mass fire, Nobs hate S8+ pie or Dreadnoughts. Marneus Calgar's Hero Swarm is a weakness just because of how many points it takes up.

PIE?
I think I'm missing something here...

PIE refers to large Blast templates.

**Gornall**

QuietOrkmi wrote:Except that every guy you did not kill I get 3 S8 attacks back...

S8 = initiative 1... means you are looking at 24 S8 attacks back at your face.... if 12 hit and 10 wounds...

That is without counting Ghazghkull and Grotsnik... so add another 5 wounds (9 attacks that hit on 3+, 6 hits that wound on 2+...)

I am also within a Battlewagon and can assault you without getting out...

Not to play the whole "My dad >> your dad game too much"

10 TH/SS with Chappy on the Charge: 30 S8 Attacks that hit on 4's and reroll misses = 22.5 hits. Wound on 2's means 18.75 wounds. That's 12.75 failed invulnerables, meaning your Meganobs are squished. Your attacks back equal 15 wounds or 5 dead SS Termies. So you're losing combat by a lot and next turn the TH/SS Termies should finish off your ICs. I will give you the BW though, as 10 Termies can't fit in a LR. It basically comes down to who gets the charge.

**Grey Templar**

You haven't taken into account the Nobs(unless they have Claws) will go first and will kill a few termies

**Gornall**

Grey Templar wrote:You haven't taken into account the Nobs(unless they have Claws) will go first and will kill a few termies

I thought they were all Meganobs.

**Black Blow Fly**

Not all armies can field deathstars, such Necrons. A true deathstar can absorb lots of punishment and still win a game, it's not about getting back the points you invested in your über unit. I play a deathstar in my Khorne daemon army and I have had games where they never even assaulted one enemy unit but still helped me to win the game. While a large squad of nob bikers lead by a mounted warboss is expensive pointswise it's not the case that every deathstar has to cost a lot of points. Deathstars can remove your opponent's focus on your troops and protect them so as a result you might be able to get away with fielding less troops which means you have more points to spend on your deathstar(s).

G

**Da Boss**

Gornall wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:You haven't taken into account the Nobs(unless they have Claws) will go first and will kill a few termies

I thought they were all Meganobs.

Meganobs aren't a great deathstar because they're slow, don't have a bosspole, and can't really diversify properly to abuse wound allocation.

**Guitardian**

just stay away from it. 'Deathstar' marine com squads and such are so dam pointsy that if they aren't hacking stuff apart every turn, they'll lose to a troop advantage.

There's also the counter punch aproach I've used now and then... You take a superbadass I take one too, and just waste the game over who is the bigger bitch in the sandlot while the rest of the guys do their thing. A Wraithlord is great for this, or a Nurgle Demon, or a Marine termie squad... but they all just tarpit the other ones and leave the game up to the non-super squads on the table.