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Vindicators are very Iron Warriors, I feel. Although, has anyone else noticed that they're perfect for Havoc Launchers? It gives them some reach.

I have noticed that. It also makes it much harder to disable, because as soon as you lose your cannon start backing up while firing the Havoc Launcher.

After seeing three suads of oblits taken out in a turn by fairly average rolls, I've become less and less impressed by obliterators.

I do think that they have greater potential than Defilers. Their ability to choose from such a powerful assortmen of weaponry makes them extremely versatile. However, I've never seen a battle where they lived up to what I think their full potential is. I know it seems like a pretty stupid thing to complain about, but just from what I've seen from chaos players, I think that they're too hard to use well enough that they can't be countered without a huge amount of loss or effort.

Defilers however present the difficulty of extreme range, and lots of firepower. They're too big a threat to not require neutralization as soon as possible (same as oblits) but they can be castled around in deployment, meaning that 1st turn assault by drop podding MM dreads or the like would be almost impossible.

i prefer defiler , i've had oblit killed way to easily with heavy weapons. But then again it's probably the same if the only thing fearful you have it the defiler.

what i really like about defiler is , to me, they're tougher than most chaos vehicule.

you're immune to shaken and stuned so your opponent will lose shots there. If your immmobilised you still have the battle cannon , if your weapon destroyed you can go at them in CC. So unless you kill it outright you have to shoot twice as much to neutralise the threat

It really should be 6 Oblits or 3 Defilers since that's even points. Of course 9 Oblits are scarier, they cost 225 pts MORE! lol

I personally run 3 Defilers with 3 Dreads all with DCCWs along with my 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers. While you're wasting lascannon shots at them the Rhinos are rolling up to kill you!

What she said, and to add a couple more:

Defilers won't get bitched up by Power Weapons. The Obliterator's Power Fists are nice, but at I1 they're out-competed by Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons at I3, and always allow enemy Power Fists a swing.

Defilers won't get bitched up by No Retreat! wounds, as Walkers do not suffer from No Retreat!

Really if you're getting your oblits stuck into close combat then they aren't really serving their purpose. They should be raining plasma death on anything before it gets into assault range.

And apparently 2 wound terminators are bad in combat. Ill have to write that one down next to where it says flash gits are good.

Regwon wrote:And apparently 2 wound terminators are bad in combat. Ill have to write that one down next to where it says flash gits are good.

The reason they're bad in combat is because of the massive amount of points they're worth. It's not that they're bad per say, but as others have said if you're letting them get into CC then you've done something wrong and you're wasting the points you've spent on them. They also don't get bonuses for charging.

They're shooting platforms, using them for another purpose would be

They also don't get bonuses for charging.

Old rules, now they do.

The funny thing is they dropped in T and S and gained/lost weapon options and went UP in price, and still people think they're the best Heavy to take! lol

in a tactical sense, 9 oblits totally. In a psychological sense, 3 defilers. They just look scary! They were one of the reasons I started building chaos lol. They are a lotta fun, even if they die quickly.

Well, you better compare (point-wise) 6 Obliterators with 3 Defilers.
Obliterators are better vs MEQ, while Defilers can be deadly vs hordes.

I would find 3 defilers to be more scarier than 6 (or even 9) obliteraters.

I would need very specialised weaponry to hope to take down Defilers (anti-vehichle stuff) obliterators are basically tough termies that shoot. So weight of fire can drag them down.

(Also, I have versed defilers a lot in the past, but not really obliterators.)

wuestenfux wrote:Well, you better compare (point-wise) 6 Obliterators with 3 Defilers.
Obliterators are better vs MEQ, while Defilers can be deadly vs hordes.

The Obliterators would counter with these four words: "Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers"

My Obliterators are the bane of guardsmen at our flgs. Deepstrike them and watch any IG player squirm as his tanks get melta-gunned and his troops heavy flamered. Ah, the joyous screams of suffering are sweet music to the Dark Gods!!

They are only TL Flamers. Defilers get the TL Heavy Flamers.

Really I feel the balance here is 2 Defilers and a unit of Obliterators. The Obliterators should be positioned for center control/response so at E.range= L-Cannon, M.range=P-Cannon, shorter ranges plasma guns or melta guns (i.e. to crinkle drop pods, dread naughts, etc. Conversely, a rear deepstrike with such weapons could devastate tank companies or transports and expose troopers to the fury of chaos battle cannons.

If nothing else, the 2 Defilers are space marine killers and the obliterators are terminator killers. If it were me, I'd probably try and box my Defilers at an effective range to keep 6" melta attempts at bay.

I could wax on and on from here, but really, sticking to just the topic this is what I think most people would never want to have to deal with when it comes to what's the scariest.

BUT since some people brought it up, I personally think the scariest spooky shooter team (i.e. say your prayers) is 3 SM Vindicators teamed up with 9 Attack Bikes with TL-MM courtesy of Vulkan. that is a....lot of punishment. I've only brought it down on my foes in Apocalypse matches

The Dragon wrote:Really I feel the balance here is 2 Defilers and a unit of Obliterators. The Obliterators should be positioned for center control/response so at E.range= L-Cannon, M.range=P-Cannon, shorter ranges plasma guns or melta guns (i.e. to crinkle drop pods, dread naughts, etc. Conversely, a rear deepstrike with such weapons could devastate tank companies or transports and expose troopers to the fury of chaos battle cannons.

If nothing else, the 2 Defilers are space marine killers and the obliterators are terminator killers. If it were me, I'd probably try and box my Defilers at an effective range to keep 6" melta attempts at bay.

I could wax on and on from here, but really, sticking to just the topic this is what I think most people would never want to have to deal with when it comes to what's the scariest.

BUT since some people brought it up, I personally think the scariest spooky shooter team (i.e. say your prayers) is 3 SM Vindicators teamed up with 9 Attack Bikes with TL-MM courtesy of Vulkan. that is a....lot of punishment. I've only brought it down on my foes in Apocalypse matches

I think combination of Lash and Vindicators is amazing, and something Chaos players could exploit more. That is, if people didn't have a coniption fit anytime you say the word 'Lash.'

Is the armour of an obliterater 3+ or 2+?

I vote oblits, simply for the variety of roles they can play. Abit expensive, sure, but worth it in the end I would think. and they are 2+, atleast thats what I remember them being.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is the armour of an obliterater 3+ or 2+?

We cannot tell (intellectual property of GW), but their armor is similar to that of Termies.

DJ66 wrote:
I think combination of Lash and Vindicators is amazing, and something Chaos players could exploit more. That is, if people didn't have a coniption fit anytime you say the word 'Lash.'

I've seen a friend of mine do something like this with demonic possession on his vindicators. When it works for him (usually his 1st turn) it's absolutely beautiful-- dragging men and HQs out into open hell and whatnot.

HOWEVER... when he doesn't get first turn, it gets a lot of WD results if not +5 or 6 on chart due to D-pods w/ MG or MM or just good ole' fashioned LCs from across the board.

The reason I still support defiler use is because worse case scenario, you can keep it in reserve... and just wait to come out and still hit everything on table. With its range-nothing is out, and it's a tall enough model, most things won't get cover saves if they're in 1/2 table range. Combine with Obliterator fire support (theoretically in cover for the better save), sniping the anti-vehicle opposition and I feel you have the best fire support mix.

Conversely, if the table is hopping with cover saves you might as well go for the 9 obliterators and the plasma cannon storm. I'm told it's like a spending a day as dark eldar- with plasma blasts all over the place. Of course, Defilers DO have Heavy Flamers which get around that pesky cover problem so once again...eh.

Anyways, if you're allowed to switch up the army (different clubs, different rules, tournaments, etc.) try and scope a feel for the terrain and make an educated guess on the degree of cover there and what will serve your force best.

I'm really surprised only 2 people so far have mentioned havocs.

9 oblits = ridiculous amount of points, for the same price I can have 3 squads of 8 havocs armed with autocannons and still have points left over.

Ideally, I would prefer a mix of oblits for DS+versatility, a squad of havocs with autocannons, and either more oblits, a defiler(If I have other armor like dreads), or another squad of havocs. Most people know by now that a lot of chaos players take oblits, and know strategies to take them out, so if you take all oblits you're likely to run up against players expecting that and having the perfect counter to them. Overspecializing is baaaaad. A mix of units that can fill in for, and have different weaknesses lets you have offensive choices for every need and defenses against every weapon. I also think the sheer defensive properties of land raiders makes them a great choice.

wuestenfux wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is the armour of an obliterater 3+ or 2+?

We cannot tell (intellectual property of GW), but their armor is similar to that of Termies.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not but GW can't copyright numbers, besides they publish the stats for each unit on their online store.

edit: to contribute. Oblits, they have the weapon options for every situation, even if your opponent has prepared his army for them they're still a huge threat because nothing is safe from them.

evilsponge wrote:

edit: to contribute. Oblits, they have the weapon options for every situation, even if your opponent has prepared his army for them they're still a huge threat because nothing is safe from them.

Just having the proper weapon to hurt a certain unit type effectively doesnt mean you are doing so efficiently or putting enough of that type of weapon on the unit to make them hurt. For example, a squad of 3 oblits can swap to have 3 TL-flamers, but you could also have gotten a squad of chosen/havocs with 5 flamers and some extra marines to pad the unit(or even a rhino with combi-flamer to have double the amount of flamer templates). You can get more volume of shots with chosen/havocs with almost every weapon the oblit can wield(and almost 3x the shots with autocannons), and usually with a nice sized squad backing them up to take wounds or give even more shots from their bolters if you get in range(although you probably wouldnt be trying to get in range, it isnt out of the realm of possibility).

I think the best way to take oblits is instead of 6 or 9 to take 1 squad of 3 oblits for versatility to help cover any holes in your arsenal (ie your opponent took massed infantry or massed armor and you have a mix of Anti-infantry and Anti-vehicle, your oblits can swap to the proper weapon type and help cover the gaps in your weapons). Then take a squad of 8 or so havocs with autocannons, which are pretty much excellent against anything(strong armor, light infantry, heavy infantry, whatever) and as said above has almost 3x the amount of shots from their autocannons alone. So oblits mixed with havocs and other heavy support/elites can give you versatility as well as volume of powerful shots without leaving a huge chunk of your army's points in 9 slow infantry units.

I think it should be obvious how dangerous it is to take 9 identical high point cost units that your enemy is expecting. You're putting the point cost of 3 nicely kitted land raiders or 30 fully equipped marines in the package of 9 slow vulnerable infantry. No one is saying oblits are bad, but I am saying taking 9 of them is bad, inefficient, and asking your opponent to exploit their weaknesses for a massive point gain.

I fear the 9 oblits more.
Defilers are alot easier to pop with AT weapons, Oblits can claim cover saves easier.
They have a smaller footprint so can actually hide.

In addition, muliple plasma cannon blast resolution is just so much more crazy than the battle cannon.

Lol, plague bearers don't get FNP from plasam cannons, but the DO get FNP from taking a battle cannon shot to the face.

My 7 Cents.

When I am playing with my horde orks, the 3 defilers are more of a problem.
I use snikrot and crew to tie up or kill 'oblits and I usually get cover from the plasma cannon shots. The defilers will get closer so there is less of a chance of me getting cover from the battlecannon. Sure my nob might tear them up with a PK given enough rounds, but not before the battlecannon and defiler rips up a 30 strong ork mob.

When I am playing with my marine biker army, the oblits are more of a challange for me. Defilers are easy to take down when you have 8 melta guns on bikes, where the oblits still get their cover save.

Actually I would agree with the notion that a mix would be more terrifying.

Even then, 2 squads of oblits and a Vindi/defiler or 2 Vindi/defier with one squad of oblits.

I personally use 6 oblits and a defiler.
I mainly use the defiler for fun, though the oblits always make it into all my lists.

My 7 Cents.

I think a horde shooty army (cue IG) would be very effective against obliterators. Sheer weight of fire will kill them off, and they can't possibly flame the WHOLE army...can they?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I think a horde shooty army (cue IG) would be very effective against obliterators. Sheer weight of fire will kill them off, and they can't possibly flame the WHOLE army...can they?

No they can't, especially considering guardsmen can get 100 shots at 24", while flamers get 0 shots at 24"

It should also be noted that oblits are weak to lash, being infantry.

@Canonness Rory:
Well...that's a given.

But I find oblits only really have one great shot during the entire game and WILL get the drop before lash affects them.

A) deepstrike, they will most certainly get at least one turn to shoot with icons around.
B) use LoS blocking stuff... (rhino, LR, Terrain), then move and shoot.

Generally the lash is sort of blunted in what they can do. Moving them behind a forest is not that bad as they can move and fun, unlike Havocs with hvy weapons.

Getting them forward for a charge is meh really, esp. if they maximize their plasma cannon range at 36".

Basically: being careful with them only makes them better.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:I fear the 9 oblits more.
Defilers are alot easier to pop with AT weapons, Oblits can claim cover saves easier.
They have a smaller footprint so can actually hide.

In addition, muliple plasma cannon blast resolution is just so much more crazy than the battle cannon.

Lol, plague bearers don't get FNP from plasam cannons, but the DO get FNP from taking a battle cannon shot to the face.

My 7 Cents.

Plague Bearers may get Feel No Pain from a Battlecannon, but they don't get it from Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and they can't hurt AV12.