Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That is correct ,but they have the ability to turboboost so 3+ cover. Hopefully by turn two you will have gotten into CC.


T6 is fantastic. Also, they only have 1 wound anyway so it doesnt really matter.


The more I look at it the more I like the following.

6 man biker Squad w/ Mark of Nurgle w/ 2 Meltaguns w/ Aspiring

283

Chaos Lord w/
Mark of Nurgle, Combimelta , Daemon Weapon , Bike, Personal Icon
170 points


Greater Daemon 100

Turbo boost is a 3+ cover, not 3+ invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

konst80hummel wrote:On the subject of T6 Nurgle Bikers with T6 Biker Lord...
They' re still considered to be T4 for purposes of ID aren't they?
Say if a S9 Earthshaker shot lands bang on them... It still wounds on a 2+ ignoring armor saves, the same applies to battle cannons. So a ordnance heavy army (IG) wouldn't really be forced to change his firing plan...

Except your 2 meltaguns and S8 power fist would be there to get rid of that ordnance on turn 2, rather than turn 3 - 4.

Yeah its why I think the Greater Daemon/ Daemon Compliment the squad the ability to move 24 and then into your opponents deployment is incredible and I think a nice synergy with the unit.

I am hoping they release new bikes at some point so I might actually consider using them. I think it is the wheels that I have the biggest problem with but the thickness and look of the bike itself just looks cartoony to me.

The t6 and 3+ cover save is amazing but the price is very prohibitive, especially when a lot of people consider them a suicide squad, but I guess that depends on how you use them. Raptors give me more units, all the same upgrade options, and the models look great. I like to have a nice big squad of them to prowl around with my lord looking for dugg-in heavy weapon squads or other key units while my plague marines/nurgle-marked csms roll up the center shrugging off fire and my havocs punish them from long range.

I would like to see some new units for fast attack in our next codex , maybe landspeeders(Probably get screams from loyalist players), return of furies,upgraded chaos spawn that can be customized(maybe some kind of chaos-warped weapons/armor/speed/wings/etc upgrades), fast attack swarms of some kind(tzeentch bird flocks perhaps?), or maybe even some kind of brand new unit like night lords even further warped by chaos to have wings that are like a mix of a fury that can carry special weapons , cause fear, and see at night. Another idea would be a return of a fast attack special character (only not silly like doomrider)Well, I can dream anyway...

They just need to reduce the cost of bikes.

I occasionally run a squad of 12 Slaanesh Raptors with an attached flying Lash Sorcerer, which can conceivably pull off a first turn assault at I5.

It hardly ever works, though. The best use for Raptors is to eliminate enemy close combat units as a defensive stop-gap measure, like someone mentioned earlier.

@alanedomain:
If you go first, it's impossible.
If the opponent goes first and moves 0.000001" towards you then yes.

You are 'more than' 24" away from each other.
____________________-
As for FA choices.

Raptors are 'ok' a bit expensive compared to loyalists, bland.
I prefer 10 man CSM rhinos, but Raptors are more combat oriented. They will most likely engage in combat before the rhino squads.

Bikers: yes, expensive.
They are 'combat' oriented though they get 2 hand weapon bonus.
But in general, bikers do not operate at the same speed as the rest of the list. THis is both good and bad.

Spawn: yes they are here. yes they look really bad.
There are (as a unit) decent against one thing:
Attacking vehicles, now you don't always get to choose your targets, but attacking vehicles is prob. the best thing they can do, and at str 5 with a 'decent' effective range, it's not so bad.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:
As for FA choices.

Raptors are 'ok' a bit expensive compared to loyalists, bland.
I prefer 10 man CSM rhinos, but Raptors are more combat oriented. They will most likely engage in combat before the rhino squads.

1)Why are raptors bland? If you find raptors bland then bikers and rhinos and csms are just as bland, the only real difference are some spikey bits, if that. Their jumppacks , sleeker bird-like helmets, and clawed feet make them very distinct from their loyalist brethren and make them a nice unique unit imo. Compared to our rhino/land raider/bikes which are simply loyalist models with spikey bits the raptor is actually something completely unique in all parts to the chaos forces and I'd like to see more units like it that are actually unique instead of simply loyalist copies with a sprue of spikes to make them "chaos-y".

2)I'm not quite sure I would call rhinos fast attack. They can move an extra 6" if they moved the entire turn on a road, but that seems like a great way to get blown to hell by a heavy weapon squad watching for people doing just that. Otherwise they move just as quickly as infantry.

3)Raptors are not any better than csms at close combat without upgrades. The only benefit is their jumppack. You can upgrade them with better close combat weapons, but at base they are identical in close combat.

Sanctjud wrote:

Bikers: yes, expensive.
They are 'combat' oriented though they get 2 hand weapon bonus.
But in general, bikers do not operate at the same speed as the rest of the list. THis is both good and bad.

Agreed, many people consider them a suicide unit, and for this reason I prefer not to put my lord/sorc with them whereas raptors make a better retinue for a flying HQ.

Sanctjud wrote:
Spawn: yes they are here. yes they look really bad.
There are (as a unit) decent against one thing:
Attacking vehicles, now you don't always get to choose your targets, but attacking vehicles is prob. the best thing they can do, and at str 5 with a 'decent' effective range, it's not so bad.

I think as someone else said, the only reason to have chaos spawn models is if you use gift of chaos. There are very few legitimate reasons to take a spawn for anything else. For a "unit" of chaos spawn you could get a much more effective unit of chosen/csms/havocs/whatever to dish out anti-vehicle fire. The only things the spawn has going for it are: Low point cost,random amount of attacks(double edged sword), decent amount of wounds for cost, slightly better strength than csm, 12" assault, and fearless. The problem is that mindless means they will more than likely get picked off by long range artillery long before they ever get in range to do anything, their low ws means once they get there they are going to have a hard time wounding, and slow and purposeful means it will take them forever to get there(even though they can assault 12" once they get in range).

@Halsfield:
1)Bland......did you see what they had in 3.5 dex.
Loss of hit and run/visage.

They are now spikey assault marines...that are more expensive....so yea. Bland.

2) I did not mean 'rhino's as fast attack'.
They fill 'sort-of' the same role.
They are more shooty, while raptors engage in combat at bit sooner is what I had mean, though they both move at 12" effectively.

Why are you bringing roads into the discussion? Anyway, you don't 'HAVE' to use the increased speed if it's unwise.
Hell, you don't just have one rhino you have at least 3.
To plan on one dying, one immobilized, and one hitting the enemy.

If the mentality is "fast things die first" then why even bother with the discussion if you are generalizing that everything dies.

3) I never said they are 'better' in combat.
Only that they will engage in combat 'SOONER'. Which can be a big deal or not so much of a big deal. It's the way that makes them different from rhino squads.
___________________

Yes, Gift is a reason spawn can be good....but also bad.
Remember you don't HAVE to put the spawn on the tabe. It's bad for kill points, and sometimes bad for objectives/in general, as they most likely contribute negatively to combat results when they be taking wounds with no armor.

Yes, they are overpriced, no doubt.
But people still use them, and they can perform in a fight and do pretty well.
Application, Forethought, low expectations, target saturation and some average rolling can suprise you...but oh well.

"low point cost" that is completely wrong. They are far too expensive.
Mindless's problem is not that they get get 'picked off' it's that they can't engage in choice targets (slow moving armor) and more likely attack fast moving vehicles that need 6's to hit.

Hell THAT IS A PRO, if the enemy is using long range ordinance/anti-tank guns to shoot them.
You will most likely see them die to random small arms/combats when they approach.

Low WS doesn't matter in terms of offense unless they hit WS 7 enemies... so that is inaccurate.
With str 5 they wound better than regular MEQs.

Slow and purposeful is wishy washy, it doesn't mean auto-forever.
A note, it's funny it takes 5 dice to see how far they can charge from the start of a turn.
2 dice for movement, 1 for run, 2 dice for charging.

Just to be clear, I agree that they suck. But I'm just trying to keep an open mind.

My 7 Cents.

3 Spawn are actually priced on par for what they give you: 9 T5 wounds. You get 8 Marines for the same cost. Marines die 11% of the time to other Marine's bolters, while Spawn take a wound 21% without cover, but 1% less of the time than Marines while in cover. In 5th, cover is easy to grab even for Mindless Spawn. So they have an extra wound and slightly better protection from small arms, and vaslty superior protection from high powered, blast weapons. While CSM can lose many models to a large blast, Spawn can only take a maximum of 3 wounds, killing 1 model in a blast. The next blast after that can only inflict 2 wounds, not killing another model.

They lose out because they don't have bolters and can't be controlled, but they also have a lower buy in than CSM. While CSM need to be geared and tailored properly, Spawn just need a trio and enemies to follow. For a properly geared 10 CSM squad, you can get 6 Spawn. As far as speed is concerned, Spawn move about 6-8" a turn, 12" if you are lucky, but then vault another 6-8" (maximum another 12") on the charge with average rolling.

Once you make it to the Assault, if all 3 Spawn are intact you get an average of ~14 (each Spawn rolls individually, +1 for charge) S5 causing 1.5 dead MEQs, compared to the 2 dead MEQs 24 swings from 8 Marines brings in. Now that is harder to call because 3 Spawn have a such a swing in the amount of attacks they make, but CSM are going to beat them out reliably.

So, CSM perform better offensively, but Spawn beat them out defensively by an equally large margin. Spawn are cheaper, but can't be controlled, while CSM are more expensive and more reliable. Now you ask yourself, what can you do with durable units that can't be controlled? Exactly what they are intended for in the fluff: meat shields! Spawn offer great target saturation for a low buy in, and anything they manage to kill is a bonus. Because of their low buy in and no synergetic needs, they don't need a list designed around them, which cuts down their relative cost even more.

The problem with spawn is that no saving throw = dead in CC, and CC is the only way they have of affecting the battlefield.

S&P means that they always fight last. If all three spawn are intact and you charge them into 120 points of slugga boys... the boys go first, hit you 40 times, do an average of 6.67 wounds, and two spawn die before they even get to go, then the remaining spawn does 2-3 wounds, and then dies to no-retreat wounds.

Charge them into 120 points of chaos marines... the Chaos marines go first, hit 12 times, do 4 wounds, the remaining spawn kill one marine, another spawn dies to no retreat, and congratulations, you've managed to tie up the squad for a turn. Not a bad result, by any means, but also not exactly an efficient use of 120 points.

Of course, these scenarios are assuming that the squad made it into combat entirely intact. All your opponent has to do is kill one of them and then they pretty much always die instantly almost no matter who they assault.

Spawn are completely worthless.

Well, I gave it my best shot. I wanted to see if I could make Spawn make sense, but like I've said before, they are for Gift of Chaos in non-KP missions.

Something I wanted to say about the Chaos Fast Attack is that they are high mobility assault unit in an army filled with blunt, raw powered close combat units. While your Terminators or Berserkers are demolishing the enemy's close combat units, Bikes and Raptors have the mobility to hit other targets that can't defend themselves.

Bikers have higher toughness and are able to fire bolters while charging into combat, but are in smaller squads. In my opinion, this makes them a better cleaning crew, finishing off damaged squads. Raptors on the other hand are less durable, but are able to jump over terrain entirely. They are able to get at units that can't defend themselves without letting the prey get LoS of them.

Holy Crap I came up with a use for spawn.

They are extrawounds at t5 for cheap for IC with Steeds.

Chaos Lord w/
Daemonic Steed Slaanesh
Powersword or Daemon Weapon
Meltabomb

2 Chaos Spawn


Hurray my General now has toughness 5 as you go against the overall toughness of the unit and 6 ablative wounds.

With Toughness 5 you can put reliably STR 9 or more.

Also for 80 points he basically gets 2d6 STR5 attacks in addition to his attacks.

So yes, there you go couple him with 2 Chaos Spawn.

Toughness 5, he has fleet as he is calvary, when charging he charges 12 inches can fleet so at minimum he will move 2 inches and charge 12. so minimum 14 inches Maximum he can do is 12 + 12 or a 24 inch charge range.


Hilarity.

Huh. The only other unit in the codex that has fleet and 12" charge. The only problem is that he gets Slow and Purposeful and has to move with that squad towards the nearest enemy. So it isn't that the Spawn are bodyguarding him, he is bodyguarding the Spawn.

I also don't see why you'd ever give a powerfist to a lord with the mark of slaanesh.

It's the only use I could think of. Yeah, I guess Daemon Weapon or Power weapon is better. This is better I guess.

Chaos Sorcerer
Mark of Slaanesh
Chaos Change
Daemon Steed

2 Chaos Spawn.


This is really the only use I could think of ; their going to be getting into combat anyway, so why not.

@Hollismoason:

It's called Gift of Chaos.

Sooooooooo. the lord is reduced to following what the spawn follows.

So... if a 50 point vyper diverts them 180 degrees from where they want to go...
Or an empty drop pod ....great.

It only takes 4 str 8 shots before you 'have' to allocate an instant gib onto him.

/golfclap.

My 7 Cents.

children of filth wrote:i don't use fast attack anyway, it doesn't fit the theme i'm aiming for.

Thank you for that.

Back on topic. I've never been a fan of bikes in 40k. I think they are too expensive for whatever it is you are kitting them out to do.
Other things can do anything you want the bikers to do but for cheaper/better.

Raptors are pretty good for shock units that can hit tanks and infantry hard and fast so your opponent is forced to dedicate a significant amount of firepower to eliminate them.

I'm not even going to talk about Spawn.

It's the only use I could honestly see in actually purchasing chaos spawn. Im not saying its a even decent unit its HORRIBLE.

But it can be used to deliver a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer in to H t H.

Hollismason wrote:It's the only use I could honestly see in actually purchasing chaos spawn. Im not saying its a even decent unit its HORRIBLE.

But it can be used to deliver a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer in to H t H with units that you didn't even want him to assault.

I made it a bit more accurate.

Fine I give up on trying to convert you to my cause of a 30 model Chaos Spawn army :(

Hollismason wrote:Fine I give up on trying to convert you to my cause of a 30 model Chaos Spawn army :(

Damn, you were this close!

I've played a 2000 list with 46 spawn.
With a lash sor.
And 10 CSM as 2 troops.

It's fun one or two times, but it's such an annoying army. For your opponent AND YOU.

3 Dice for 13 something squads to move.
5 dice for 8 ish that survive.

/shrug, it's a meh performance, I make and use cover alot, but it's not a big deal.
When in combat it's fail very badly, or average performance, and that's just vs. TAU>>>>

Funny stuff losing to Firewarriors in combat constantly, never has 4+ armor been so much more juicier.

@Hollismason:
Coverting is a high chair goal.
I feel it's more 'workable' if you get others to see some side of your point of view.
Widening the scope is the goal really.

Spawn are a 'fun' unit and are generally crap, we get it. I actually feel most people that hate it the most are ones who have never tried it or given it a try.

I don't like them, but it's interesting to pull them out once in a while, cause, dispite how they look on paper, they have their uses and applications.

My 7 Cents.

I think Hollis was using this tool called "sarcasm."

A few things:

Slow and Purposeful only makes you strike at I1 if you are assaulting. Otherwise, if the Spawn are assaulted, or are already in close combat, then you fight at their I3.

Bikers aren't slowed down by difficult terrain, although they still have to take dangerous terrain tests. This makes them pretty reliable at assaulting troops in cover, such as when they bail out of a destroyed vehicle.

They are Relentless, so they can hose a squad with Twin-Linked Bolter fire before charging, and with Plasma Fire, as well as Bolt Pistols, Flamers, and Melta Guns.

Also, an Icon of Tzeentch gives T4(5) Bikes resistance to the kind of weapons that will kill T4(6) Bikers and ignore their Sv3+.

It might be something to list their synergies:

Speed and Icons: They can put Icons not only where you want them, but when you want them, being able to move around the board. So they mesh well with Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons. They go poorly with Greater Daemons, because that's a waste of an Aspiring Champion.

Speed and Marks: Icons confer Marks of Chaos, and the ability to use such force multipliers on such fast and shooty units is, I think, the reason why they're so expensive. Because they can assault like Chaos Space Marines, except at 18" rather than 12", and shoot, and not be stopped short by a bad difficult terrain roll.

Characters: There's lots of Characters that mesh really well with a Biker and some goons so absorb some wounds. Khorne Biker Lords with Bloodfeeders, for example, have that back-up in case they flub it, and Nurgle Sorcerers have the speed to bring Nurgle's Rot and/or Wind of Chaos to bare.

Fabius Bile: This is disputed, but since Bikers fall under the Chaos Space Marine entry in the Forces of Chaos section of the Codex, I argue that Bikers can be Enhanced for 3pts each for Fearless and +1/+2 Strength.

Consider the basic Chaos Space Marine as the basic case. Now add Bike movement, the 12" move, the Turbo-boost, Relentless, the Toughness bonus, smaller minimum squad size, no minimum squad size on special weapons, and really that's about it beyond upgrades and synergies. But supposing the cost of each factor rises with the cost of each other factor it interacts with, then Bike Movement, the 12" move, and the Turbo-boost come to 9pts, 3pts each. Twin-linkage on the Bolters, the Toughness bonus, Relentless and the minimum squad size on special weapons are 8pts, 2pts each, and and smaller minimum squad size is 1pt, then a Bike comes to 33pts.

I was under the impression that the entire Chaos Codex was the red-headed step-child of the Chaos Codex.

I sense you don't like Codex: Chaos Space Marines...

I LOLed at the thread title cuz it's so true. We had the brief reprise at the end of 4th when people took Raptors and Lash Princes together for "First turn charges" (don't you know you'll always roll short by 1-2"?). Spawn spam at low point levels can be pretty nasty actually. They're hardly worth it taking fewer than 6 I'd say, but even then, a lot of things are a lot more worth those points.

I really stupidly let my DPs get stuck in with spawn the first round of Ard Boyz. They eventually walked out with 2 less wounds and I was irritated. They're not bad for that.

Nurglitch wrote:

Also, an Icon of Tzeentch gives T4(5) Bikes resistance to the kind of weapons that will kill T4(6) Bikers and ignore their Sv3+.

So they get a 5+ invul save, which you 're absolutely right does protect them from things that a 4(6) toughness does not, but there are reasons to take either. You have to think about what your biker squad is going to be doing/facing and figure out which one is going to protect you more. A 5+ invul save isnt going to save your bacon if you have to make a lot of them, and if you are really going up against a lot of things that are going to ignore your regular save there are probably better things to spend your points on(or at least skip the tzeentch icon because it's a waste in that instance).

I LOLed at the title cos its a 'Gorch Brothers Quote from Buffy'. I feel dirty knowing that.

Spawn are a Gift - keeping in mind Kill Points (which are only an issue in some games), I love sniping key models with GOC and then locking them in combat. They are simply excellent when you play IG a lot.

I tend to keep Bikes and Raptor squads small, and pared down to the minimum size required for their special weapons.