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First off I am a big proponent of the CSM codex; once I started playing around with it I actually enjoy it somewhat more than playing normal marines. I actually sub alot of my Chaos forces w/ "traitor" marine models.

Regardless, there is one part of the chaos codex that really is the least picked option in the book.

Fast Attack selection.

You have 3; that's it comparably to other codexes their Fast Attack is lacking.

Let's look at the these and see what and how others use them.

Chaos Space Marine Bikers ; coming in at a whopping 33 points per model, they are ultimately very pricey. Almost to the point of Cost Inefficient. . However , they do have something above the average biker which is 2 base attacks w/ CC weapon and Pistol. Otherwise their unit options are exactly the same as a CSM squad. 2 Specials squad size of 10, able to get an aspiring champion, and Icons.

Raptors ; your basic Jump Infantry, less pricey but ultimately no special rules at all other than the abiltiy to get Icons, Special Weapons, Aspiring. However their point cost is Less at only 20 points per model and a Maximum squad size of 20.

Chaos Spawn, a 40 point model which does not take up a Force Slot, Maximum squad size of 3, Random d6 attack, No save, No special attacks IE no powerweapon, slow and purposeful, and a Mindless ability that can leave them doing nothing.. they do have the new rules allowing them to automatically have fleet and a assault of 12 as they are beasts. S5 T5 model w/ 3 wounds for 40 points.

Ok - dont have my codex here, but:
*I thought Bikers could get 2 specials in a squad of only 3.

* I thought they got rid of the mindless rule (although I thought they now needed to always advance to the nearest enemy unit).

I am very willing to admit im wrong of course!

Also - is this a statement or a question? Are you are looking for agreement? Dont mean to be a jerk, its just a little confusing. I expect you are looking for 'whats the best choice' or 'when do you use them?'

Spawn - I avoid choosing, but always have a few, cos I give GOC to my Aspiring Sorcerers - good fun!

Bikers I use as a 'distraction' - they turbo boost to be sitting in the enemies face - deal with them now or bear the brunt of their special weapons!

Raptors... Im still trying to use them effectively - they do serve a purpose as support for a winged deamon prince.

Yeah, bikes take 2 special weapons in a squad of 3 men. But those 3 cost 100 points. I'm looking maybe integrating a bare 5 man for 165 points. The more I look at it, the better it looks. My list is mutating to include more long-range firepower, and those 5 with MoS would be a great cleaning crew for infantry that fall out of their transports. They shoot them as they drive into combat, then swing with 3 attacks each, getting 5 S4 hits before the enemy gets to swing.

2 squads of bikes, squad of three with 2 meltas and MON (for survivability) popping open transports, plus close by a bare squad of 5 with MOS (for the aforementinoed mop up).

Could be very nice.

You could take a couple AC/LasPreds with that to pop transports for the MoS Bikers while the Nurgle ones hunt the heavier tanks. That really isn't too expensive for a 1500 list, leaving plenty for a solid troop base and a cheap HQ. I'd have to do the math, but I'm not sure I'd take MoN over two extra bodies. Then again T6 does make you nearly immune to small arms fire.

The reason Toughness six really is so great on them is because ultimately anything that can wound Toughness six and not afford a save is going to instakill regardless.

It also helps versus Plasmaguns / Cannons/ STR7 etc..

It makes them almost completely immune to small arms fire and in combat even the most Stalwart troops will need sixes to wound them.


Nurgle is an expensive choice, but I feel ultimately overall it is the best choice for bikers.


7 Man Squad of Bikers w/ Mark of Nurgle w/ Aspiring w/ powerfist, meltabombs ; 2 Meltas

299 points.


Blast this puppy forward away from a Monstrous etc... have it backed up by incoming Daemons / Obliterators / Terminators.

Well, I'd avoid the FA choices in the Chaos codex unless you have a plan how to use them in concert with other units.
Synergy is key.

The biggest Advantage I see in the Fast Attack options is Nurgle Bikers/ Nurgle Jump Pack or Tzeetch Jump Pack.


The squad size of a Raptors squad really is what makes the unit shine because over all point for point ; the buy in cost for Marks is cheap.

At 20 points per model w/ LD 10 and the ability to take MELTAguns( something normal marines assault squads do not have access to). I feel they are worth their weight.

Bikers are actually fairly viable but you have to build your entire army around them.

I was running a big nurgle bike squad with 2 tzeentch lords for awhile. Consider that this squad throws out 2D6 S4 AP3 shots that hit on a 2+, plus the rapid fire bolters in the squad, plus the mleta or plasma guns in the squad, then in chrages in and gets 2d6 + 12 power weapon attacks, plus a powerfist and the basic biker attacks. Then you summon in daemons, oblits and termies. Turbo boosting makes this squad basically invulnerable.

Beyond that fast attack is not great. Although Large squads of khorne raptors hit really hard and are fairly useful. Plus the raptor lord might be the coolest looking mini in 40k.

Bikes at 33 points each suck horribly. I can buy a much better unit for that many points. x2 marines in rhinos is almost as fast and have a lot more attacks, wounds, and scoring.

Raptors are good for catching up to those vehicles and melta gunning them away (24" range, 18" for 2D6). I run a winged sorcerer with them to squash units with warptime & force weapon at I6, and get nearly 40 attacks on the charge (MoK). They do their job well.

Spawn are garbage. The worst unit Ive ever seen.

I agree the army has to not be built around it but needs to use these units well and for specific purposes.


Other than Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines can get the most Jump Pack troops available.

I think that is an advantage.

I just find Bikers incredibly point cost and sink for very few models. Their great when they work not so great when they die on the first turn and your down 20 percent of your army.

Hollismason wrote:
At 20 points per model w/ LD 10 and the ability to take MELTAguns( something normal marines do not have access to).

Marine can in fact take meltaguns.

Space Marine Assault troops sorry. They only have access to flamers and plasma pistols.

Does Raptor Horde work? They seem like they would be great for a huge multi-charge. But at 400+ pts, would it ever be worth it?

Let's do some math hammer.
60 attacks on the charge, is 30 hits, is 15 wounds, is 13 dead orks.

Assuming an equal points value of orks. is 60 orks.
60 Slugga/choppa boyz is 180 attacks, 90 hits, 45 wounds, 15 dead raptors.

60 Shoota boyz is 120 attacks, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 10 dead raptors.

So no, they wouldn't be worth it, maybe as a bully unit to charge 30 orks/60 shoota boyz, or 50 guardsmen, or 30 spineguants, but not as a multi-charge unit.

Lets be clear here: Raptor horde is a waste, but for antihorde theyre fantastic.

Youre going to be standing and shooting orks/nids, and a few will get to you. Having an 18 inch charge range is fantastic to prevent furious charge and beasts from getting the jump on you.

Even in their profile Raptors are there to finish up a mess.

I like bikers personally; its like a plague marine (yes, it costs a little more) that moves 12 inches and can take a second mark if it wants! Khorne bikers are my fav, having a mobile assault squad thats hard to kill is always a nice thing to have. But other than that, I'll agree; our FA options are the suck

I use a squad of raptors to clear out armor and take on back row support units quickly with mark of khorne, meltas, and putting a flying sorc/lord with them to beef up the amount of cc attacks and leadership. The biggest problem is they draw a lot of fire if you're not careful and they can be expensive units to lose. I still like them better than bikes , partially for gameplay value, but more because of the fact that I hate the way GW bikes look.

Chaos spawn will hopefully be upgraded to be worth their points someday. They need more wounds, a static number of attacks (maybe with options to upgrade more), removal of the mindless rule (or major benefits to make up for it). It makes zero sense to have a fast attack unit with the slow and purposeful rule. Since they don't take up a slot in any force org positions I don't know why they decided to put them under fast attack, it would make more sense for them to be under elites or heavy support, fast attack is just insulting as they are the most plodding dead weight units in the codex.

I'd like to see a return of Night Lords' raptors, allowing us to infiltrate our raptors and launch lightning attacks at the rear/sides while our main force pummels from the front, but we'll have to wait a while for the legion codex to see what it holds.

I think Raptors are great, especially with Icons. I do not know if Nurgle is the best choice (Nurgle Bikers, great) but Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are great for Raptors. Tzeentch Raptors are a great Retinue for an HQ.

Canonness Rory wrote:Let's do some math hammer.
60 attacks on the charge, is 30 hits, is 15 wounds, is 13 dead orks.

Assuming an equal points value of orks. is 60 orks.
60 Slugga/choppa boyz is 180 attacks, 90 hits, 45 wounds, 15 dead raptors.

60 Shoota boyz is 120 attacks, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 10 dead raptors.

So no, they wouldn't be worth it, maybe as a bully unit to charge 30 orks/60 shoota boyz, or 50 guardsmen, or 30 spineguants, but not as a multi-charge unit.

Your leaving out some important aspects;

1. Raptors get Marks
2. Raptors get flamers
3. They can get the charge on large mobs and even if charged strike before them.


You need to add in another 10 attacks or so from Bolt Pistols shooting / meltaguns shooting.

Then calculate how many orks would attack back.


I really feel the 15 to 16 model squad of raptors is best; it has the wounds to soak up shooting attacks and still make it to close combat. With cover saves etc.. you should make it to your target.

15 Raptors w/ 2 meltaguns and mark of khorne is 350 points or 23 points a model.


That's not bad for a base attack of 2; 4 attacks on the charge.


The unit I really like the most that stands out is the Toughness six biker backed up w/ a lord on a bike w/ mon and daemon weapon. Expensive ? Yes ; damn hard to get rid of INCREDIBLY.

i don't use fast attack anyway, it doesn't fit the theme i'm aiming for.

Hollismason wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Let's do some math hammer.
60 attacks on the charge, is 30 hits, is 15 wounds, is 13 dead orks.

Assuming an equal points value of orks. is 60 orks.
60 Slugga/choppa boyz is 180 attacks, 90 hits, 45 wounds, 15 dead raptors.

60 Shoota boyz is 120 attacks, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 10 dead raptors.

So no, they wouldn't be worth it, maybe as a bully unit to charge 30 orks/60 shoota boyz, or 50 guardsmen, or 30 spineguants, but not as a multi-charge unit.

Your leaving out some important aspects;

1. Raptors get Marks
2. Raptors get flamers
3. They can get the charge on large mobs and even if charged strike before them.


You need to add in another 10 attacks or so from Bolt Pistols shooting / meltaguns shooting.

Then calculate how many orks would attack back.


I really feel the 15 to 16 model squad of raptors is best; it has the wounds to soak up shooting attacks and still make it to close combat. With cover saves etc.. you should make it to your target.

15 Raptors w/ 2 meltaguns and mark of khorne is 350 points or 23 points a model.


That's not bad for a base attack of 2; 4 attacks on the charge.


The unit I really like the most that stands out is the Toughness six biker backed up w/ a lord on a bike w/ mon and daemon weapon. Expensive ? Yes ; damn hard to get rid of INCREDIBLY.

The math was also off because you did not subtract the dead orks from the equation, and you allowed the orks to wound on 4s, which if they're charged is wounding on 5s.

Take nurgle bikers everyone hate T6, thats right I'm looking at you Guard.

I like this unit;

4 Bikers w/ Mark of Nurgle
2 Meltas
Aspiring w/ Powerfist

242 points

I would add this

Chaos Lord w/ Bike
MoN
Combimelta
Daemon Weapon

165

It's expensive at 407 points but it creates a great retinue for a Chaos Lord on a bike and added protection. I mean you could drop it down further to the minimum of 3 I guess , but that 4 is a good sweet spot and that really is a nasty nasty unit w/ the Lord w/ Daemon Weapon it will chew thru well anything.

The more I look at it ;



10 bikers w/ Mark of Nurgle , Aspiring and 2 Meltagun is 415
HQ

Lord w/ Bike ; MoN ; Daemon Weapon , Combimelta 170

HQ

Greater Daemon 100

20 Man Daemon Squad 260 points


Getting to see your opponents face ; priceless.

Something worth noting is that Spawn aren't really a Fast Attack choice. I think they just put it there to save paper. Regardless, the point of it is for Gift of Chaos, in which case they are actually worth something. Not only are they free, they kill a member of the enemy squad that you select and then are instantly in combat. Marines have a tough time dragging down that T5 flailing fool without their Powerfisted Champ.

I really like Bikers in this config;

4x bikers, 1x champ
-Mark of Khorne
-2x Meltaguns
-1x power fist
-Meltabombs
Total: 260 points

Yes, it is expensive. But for a squad that can run around blowing up armor while being very difficult to take down unless heavy weapons are used, its worth it IMO. This is a dedicated armor killer or deep-zone troop strike unit. This is perfect for killing guardians, guard units, crisis suits, and all that fun stuff. But like I said, its expensive, so only really useful in casual games. (these are also very good at soaking up enemy fire lol)

Spawn really are the worst unit in the entire game.

Their Slow and relentless but they are Beasts so they auto get fleet and a 12 inch charge.

That doesnt even make any sense.

Hollismason wrote:Spawn really are the worst unit in the entire game.

Their Slow and relentless but they are Beasts so they auto get fleet and a 12 inch charge.

That doesnt even make any sense.

Possessed are worse I reckon; least if you run a chaos spawn you know what your getting into lol

DarkHound wrote:Marines have a tough time dragging down that T5 flailing fool without their Powerfisted Champ.

I used spawn with some GoC sorcs and while getting rid of that Sarge or even expensive HQ unit is very nice, if the T5, 3 wound Chaos Spawn doesn't last too long since it has no save at all. Again, since GoC's main purpose is to just make that nasty enemy model disappear completely, so it's not a huge issue. but I thought I'd throw it out there.

On the subject of T6 Nurgle Bikers with T6 Biker Lord...
They' re still considered to be T4 for purposes of ID aren't they?
Say if a S9 Earthshaker shot lands bang on them... It still wounds on a 2+ ignoring armor saves, the same applies to battle cannons. So a ordnance heavy army (IG) wouldn't really be forced to change his firing plan...