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I really think that Fabius can enhance bikers. For instance, people say he can enhance Aspiring Champions, but the same argument they use against Chaos Space Marine Bikers can be used against him being able to enhance Aspiring Champions.


It's a weird argument I have no problem with it personally I think that would give them some of a boost really.


Agree on the Tzeetch I am leaning more and more toward that Toughness 5 is fine against light fire ,3+ should save but mass powerweapons etc.. could be a problem.

I don't know I am still on the fence about that either Tzeetch, Nurgle.


I really think that Raptors are a great bargain with the ability to take Meltaguns and large squads to take wounds on the way there.


It all depends the strongest I feel is Bikers over Raptors.

Hollismason wrote:I really think that Fabius can enhance bikers. For instance, people say he can enhance Aspiring Champions, but the same argument they use against Chaos Space Marine Bikers can be used against him being able to enhance Aspiring Champions.

By the RAW neither should be used until we get an update from GW (yea right), so I don't think the one should be used as justification for the other. I'm hopeful that the legion codex will provide updated rules for special chars and maybe we'll get an answer then. I don't know what GW is so busy doing that they can't give us a 5sec answer about what they intended the rule to mean. There are so many of those kinds of rules that need a sentence max response from GW to avoid hours and hours of argument but they remain silent.

Sanctjud wrote:@Halsfield:
1)Bland......did you see what they had in 3.5 dex.
Loss of hit and run/visage.

They are now spikey assault marines...that are more expensive....so yea. Bland.

Bland - What happened to the codex from 3.0+3.5---->4th happened to almost every unit in the codex(ie became more bland). So I fail to see how raptors are unique in this(oblits, csms, elites, everything lost some great rules due to legion rules being dropped). They still have a better model(which should be noted is very different than a loyalist or csm marine), access to meltas, clawed feet(showing their mutation),interesting fluff, and if they are bland then the whole army is bland and stating raptors are bland becomes redundant. Considering you didn't call bikers, regular csms, or rhinos bland for this reason makes me feel like you are grasping for a reason to justify your personal whim. It is FINE if you just don't like them, but if you're going to call one of the more unique models in the csm line bland you need to back it up with something substantial.

Spikey - Have you actually seen the newest raptors? There are no spikes on them, they have studded armor, not spiked. The only way they are spiky is if you add spikes from another kit. As I said before they are a completely new model, whereas if you cut the spikes/horns off a regular csm he would be very close to a loyalist marine.

More expensive - Only thing you said that is actually true, by a couple points per model, and I fail to see how point cost fits into an explanation of why you think something is bland. The choice to take icons, making them a great deal more expensive, is one of the reasons they are more unique, so this reason should actually be a reason they are less like assault marines, and less bland.

Sanctjud wrote:
2) I did not mean 'rhino's as fast attack'.

You need to be more clear about what you mean then, listing a rhino squad under a heading called "FA Options" as a replacement for a raptor squad gives a different impression than what you say you meant.

Sanctjud wrote:
Why are you bringing roads into the discussion?

Roads were brought into the discussion because they grant a greater movement rate which is the only reason I could see for you to label rhinos as fast attack.

Sanctjud wrote:
If the mentality is "fast things die first" then why even bother with the discussion if you are generalizing that everything dies.

Since you didnt take the time to quote what you were responding to I'm not sure if this is supposed to be in response to my comment about the tank moving up the road and getting blown up or the comment about bikers being suicide units. So I'll answer them both. My point about the tank wasnt that it died because it moved fast, but because it moved fast while going up a road without any cover to get an extra bit of movement, again this relates to you listing rhinos under "FA options". If responding about bikes I think it is pretty clear why people consider them a suicide unit. Most of the time they are being used to quickly take out specific units, and directly after are left out in the open with no support because of their speed. I use raptors all the time so I would be quite the hypocrite if I was against fast attack units.

Sanctjud wrote:
3) I never said they are 'better' in combat.
Only that they will engage in combat 'SOONER'. Which can be a big deal or not so much of a big deal. It's the way that makes them different from rhino squads.

You said "raptors are far more combat oriented" , and the point of my response was that I didn't see why you said that when raptors had the exact same loadout as regular csms except for the loss of a bolter and the gain of a jumppack. They should definitely get into combat more quickly, but greater speed doesnt make them more combat oriented. With basic csm squads you should be trying to get them into combat where our ultra grit earns its pay and having them in a rhino is a great way to make it happen without them being picked off.
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I'm not going to bother responding to the chaos spawn portion, I'm not wasting my time responding to/correcting your points about what I said on the subject of a unit that no one uses except for Gift of Chaos, and many don't even use GoC.

@Halsfield:

Bland as in loss of character, yes, the whole codex is bland......does that really make a bland unit...not?

I say it's bland because of the rules that pretty much defined them.

Obltis still have their choice of weapons.
They lost Autocannons and hvy bolters but gained plasma cannon and Multi-melta as an example of something that's really not so bland.

PS, I never said they were unique in their blandness.
Actually you agree with me.
I say they are bland.
You say everything is bland......agreement?

I never intended the points cost issue to be a reason for blandness, just look at them, they are assault marines..... but 'spiky' with respect to the image the word brings (aka chaos) and not literally spikey.

The icon system is bland. Some bonus but not the full mark bonus.
It's just a different point of view, I'm not sure how to explain it, but it seems the icon system is just a 'thrown in last minute' deal. It's kinda boring when all the character and 'uniqueness' is wiped out and 'everybody' gets to hold stick that makes them tougher......... only to not be tougher when the dude with the stick is down.
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I agree I should have been clear about he rhino.

Let me rephrase:
Instead of raptors, I'd prefer a TROOP choice CSM squad in a rhino. The cost is comparable, they operate a bit differently, but the CSM troops engage the enemy fast in terms of shooting, while raptors engage in melee prob. faster than the Rhino squad.

So if you like a squad that has a bit more initial reach I'd rather spend points on CSM squads.
CSM are fast enough to keep up with most of the fast attack choices, but in most cases synergy of both would be better.

Say Rhino squads in a rhino wall with raptors following behind in counter charge role.......or something like that.
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RE: roads: Again, I did not mean to label rhino's as fast attack, but you seem really..........."once bitten never lets go"......on it.
Rhino's move 12"...that's not fast enough. They are not fast attack, but they are quick enough to deliver.
In general, the raptors can move 12 " and run as well, but in my exp. I see my raptors and the gaming group's raptors take shelter behind the rhino's.
Spawn move at max 12, so they are operating at or below the speed of the rhino.

The effective engagement (shooting allowed and setting up for charges) range on bikes is 12", same as rhinos range.
Now bikers can turbo, but this is only good if there is sufficient LoS blocking terrain, otherwise, they will usually range ahead of the army, unsupported and prob. lower numbers. Which means: they are kill as priority number one, with not too much hassle as most small arms have nothing to shoot at the beginning anyway, or they shoot enough to force some unwated wound allocation rolls and pray to the dice gods to favor them...etc.

Roads would only benefit my stance on picking rhino's as a suppliment to the FA choices.
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I use raptors as well.
RHino's moving up can pop smoke, so having no cover in the open isn't a huge problem when spearheading.

It's only after that's the problem, but at that point the rhino prob. has done it's job, or done enough and isn't a huge problem if it dies.
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Back to raptors, let me rephrase again (no love for posting before a long trip home I guess).
Raptors are loaded out for combat.
CSM are loaded out for combat and short/mid range firefights.

YES, they both have the same offensive power, but what I had meant was that it's far more desirable for the raptors to be in combat to maximize what they are purchased for.

CSM are supposed to be flexible.
Raptors are flexible as well in terms of shooting with special weapons, but will you be mainly shooting with them or going into combat with them?

Anyway, the normal raptor squad I use at 2000 pts. is:
10 raptors, 2 melta, IoCG, and pair of LCs on champ.
Now I prefer a power fist, but I choose the LC's for fluff reasons/breaking up the cookie cutter look of all my other fist champs.

They follow up behind the rhino'es and do just that, counter charge.
If I feel more offensive, they run up a flank with 2 daemonprinces acting as target saturation.

My 7 Cents.

I think ending up with two tiers of god worship was a bad idea.

Especially when, in one tier, they forget who they're worshiping as soon as someone drops the Icon.

They're not very committed. You'd think they wouldn't let them take all of the terminator armor.

Nurglitch wrote:Fabius Bile: This is disputed, but since Bikers fall under the Chaos Space Marine entry in the Forces of Chaos section of the Codex, I argue that Bikers can be Enhanced for 3pts each for Fearless and +1/+2 Strength.

This is one of the squads I wouldn't use him on (if I even could, blah blah blah). They are generally so small, losing 1 a turn is going to hurt you more than the strength bonus is going to help. Not really relevant, just thought I'd point it out.

Here's to praying for quick releases of dark eldar, nid, necron, etc codexes so we can get our legion codex and put the legion back in chaos marine legion. I'd like to see night lord raptors return as the terror of the skies and all the other things that made chaos interesting compared to vanilla marines.