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I find the mental exercise is important. It forces us to justify our choices. Night Lords has very inteligent and contrasting views, which is why he is a favorite opponent of mine.

That surprise assault can be invaluable in bolstering your lines, aswell as stealing the momentum against an assault oriented army (its saved my neck consistantly against orks). With their surprise assault they don't need a transport because (if you've done it correctly) they come directly from reserves into an assault you need. Their CSM stat-line will let them win combats against nearly any GEQ, making them great sweeper units while your MEQs deal with important targets (ie using them to clean up Gaunts when there are Stealers around for your Marines to deal with).

They have something else Marines don't have: a 5+ invul. They can tie up squads that rely on power weapons, which is important because power weapons are the counter to MEQs. They can buy time for your MEQs to get clear, especially coupled with the surprise assault.

They are not 'just Marines, but worse.' They have similar stat-lines, but different deployment, abilities and roles.

Something to add is that Lesser Daemons allow Chaos Space Marines to engage and destroy armies composed of multiple small units, such as Space Marines and Imperial Guard in objective-based scenarios where the Chaos Space Marines would otherwise be at a disadvantage for the number of Troops that they can field.

DarkHound wrote:I find the mental exercise is important. It forces us to justify our choices. Night Lords has very inteligent and contrasting views, which is why he is a favorite opponent of mine.

That surprise assault can be invaluable in bolstering your lines, aswell as stealing the momentum against an assault oriented army (its saved my neck consistantly against orks). With their surprise assault they don't need a transport because (if you've done it correctly) they come directly from reserves into an assault you need. Their CSM stat-line will let them win combats against nearly any GEQ, making them great sweeper units while your MEQs deal with important targets (ie using them to clean up Gaunts when there are Stealers around for your Marines to deal with).

They have something else Marines don't have: a 5+ invul. They can tie up squads that rely on power weapons, which is important because power weapons are the counter to MEQs. They can buy time for your MEQs to get clear, especially coupled with the surprise assault.

They are not 'just Marines, but worse.' They have similar stat-lines, but different deployment, abilities and roles.

This is all great, and I would completely agree, except the points cost for them do not allow them to do this.

You say you can tie up things that counter MEQs and let the MEQs escape, but do you realize with the same amount of points you could have bought other MEQs anyways? 13 points instead of 15. Youre still sacrificing atleast 65 points (5 daemons) for it, and really, how often would that situation come up?

A 5+ invul save really isnt anything to write home about. It means 1/3 guys is saved. Not only with power weapons, but with lasguns and bolterfire as well.

Daemons actually get 1 less attack each when you consider bolt pistols, and they cant get any power weapons of any kind. With that said, Im really starting to think CSM would do better against terminators anyways (Id like to see the numbers so might as well post them):

Assuming Charge:
---

10 Daemons (130 points): 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wound, 1.25 terminators dead.
5 Terminators: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.675 dead.

More likely, fearless leads to another 0.67 dead daemons.

2.346 dead.

---

6 marines, IoCG (140 points): 6 pistols, 3 hit, 1.5 wound, 0.25 dead terminators | 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 0.625 dead terminators
5 Terminators: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 dead CSM.
Fist: 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 0.84 dead terminators after 5+

----

Summary:

CSM: 2.5 Dead CSM, 1.72 dead terminators
Daemons: 0.2346 dead, 1.25 dead terminators.

----

This is supposed to be the Daemons specialty, yet they really dont do much better if at all. They have a few more bodies, but dont kill as many terminators.

Now considering their marginally better survival rate (if they even have that, as CSM would have less attacks coming back and a constant fist to take 1 out), daemons also have these negative aspects:

-50% chance of coming in early, leaving your daemons only 18" up the board
-No transports, meaning low mobility, especially if the above happens
-No shooting whatsoever.
-Highly susceptible to bolter and lasgun fire

This was also assuming you take a CSM squad at a less than optimal loadout. The marine squad would also give you an extra rhino, 2 meltas, and 4 extra bodies.

I was thinking more along the lines of Burna Boyz, or Banshees. As for how often those situations would come up, I play against 'Stealer Shock with startling frequency. If you put the Lessers directly infront of the 'stealers, you waste their movement phase and their running trying to get around you (or not). They only really get the consolidation roll to get to you, so you get an extra turn to rapid fire into them as you flee. Now, couldn't you do this with a Rhino? Yes, but. Yes, but the Rhino is always on the field. He knows its there, and he can tamper with it. With the Lessers, by Deepstriking you take the choice out of his hands. It is the same idea against less unreasonably lethal opponents (the Burna Boyz and Banshees), but you can do some damage to them, maybe even lock them down for a turn instead of melting instantly.

I suppose the only thing I've not addressed is the 50% chance of coming down early. Now, I don't know about you, or what your gaming group expects, but my group sees dice control as a skill. If we recorded my reserve rolls, and declared what turn I was trying to make them come in, they'd be very accurate.

On a side note, I was wondering how they'd fair against Terminators, but as I don't play anyone who uses them, haven't seen it done. Good to know.

Every unit has a specific situation where they may be good. In the case of banshees, daemons are just slightly less worse than CSM. My argument is why block off the stealers at all? Why engage them in CC? Just shoot them with bolters. Those 130 points could buy you nearly 9 marines, 18 shots. Stack that with the full squad that the daemons would be coming in on, and that should be 8 or 9 dead stealers. You just neutralized the threat without losing or sacrificing a guy.

As for the dice rolling, im not sure what you mean. People shouldnt be trying to make the die land perfectly on a side, as that is cheating.

To me, CSM are just too good to be replaced by something so limited. They are, imo, the most point efficient troops in the game right behind the new SWs. When youre only saving 2 points and losing so many things, theyre just not worth it in my opinion.

Side 1: Summoned lesser daemons are dumb because they're too expensive and don't have armor or guns.

See Night Lords's post.

Side 2: Summoned lesser daemons are neat because they might arrive exactly when and where they're needed (in support of the more expensive guys with guns).

The use of summoned daemons requires that the CSM forces have advanced far enough forward that icons are in good positions starting on turn two. I think its possible to build armies that are capable of doing that, although there are plenty of army builds which wouldn't be designed for that type of movement. Either way, I'm sure that argument has been done to death concerning the 3.5 daemon bomb. In any event, the tactical gamble is that the daemon delivery units will survive enemy fire (while doing some damage to the enemy) to get the daemons into a position to be useful when they arrive.

Verdict:

Dice controlling is a skill you'll pick up, either intentionally or unconciously. It is easier to see its effects the less dice are rolled. When you roll a 6 on a single die, your brain understands that was a good thing, and will try to replicate the swing of your arm that did that. The more often you roll few dice, the better those rolls become. My IG friend plays a half horde army, so he rarely rolls single dies, and his morale checks are painfully hit or miss. I'm glad my Tau friend has poor dice rolling or his Fish would be indestructable.

Why not simply get more Marines? Without the physical blockage, the 'Stealers are going to get into combat. You'll be losing guys one way or another. Now, I use Cult Troops, so I can't afford to sacrifice them.

I suppose it's like John said, our skill sets and metagames are different.

Night Lords:

What you seem to be saying is that we should take Chaos Terminators in preference to either Chaos Space Marines or Summoned Lesser Daemons.

What are the numbers with Space Marine Terminators and Assault Terminators?

I'm seeing:

10 Lesser Daemons @ I4: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.
1 Terminator Sergeant @ I4: 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0 unsaved wounds
3 Terminators @ I1: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.

Terminators win 2:1, Daemons take another wound. Now there's 7 Daemons to 4 Terminators (39pts to 40pts). Daemons won't run, ever.

5 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Aspiring Champion w/Power Fist, (140 points). Shooting: 6 Bolt Pistols, 4 hit, 2 wound, 0 unsaved wounds. Close combat: 5 Chaos Space Marines @ I4 15 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1 unsaved wound. 1 Terminator Sergeant @ I4, 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 unsaved wound.
1 Aspiring Champion @ I1: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.
3 Terminators @ I1: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 unsaved wounds.

Terminators win 4:2. The Chaos Space Marines may run on a Morale check of 9 or more. Fortunately Terminators can't Sweeping Advance, so they'd be safe. Of course, now you have a squad of one Chaos Space Marine and an Aspiring Champion vs three Terminators.

A note on the arithmetic: I've round up all partial results to full integers because there are no partial results in 40k. So the Terminator Sergeant hits with 50% of his attacks, and wounds with 50% of his hits, no armour saving throws allowed against the Chaos Space Marine, and it rounds up to an unsaved wound. Conversely, the Terminator Sergeant against the Lesser Daemons would wound on 50% but it would save 33% (so 33% of 50% > 1% and 49% rounds down).

DH:

Rolling should be 100% random. Unless you are looking down at the dice and trying to drop it properly (which is cheating), or are using weighted dice (also cheating), it should be random.

The genestealers are going to kill you anyways... The daemons come in at the beginning of your turn. If you had marines there instead, youd have 16 bolters and a few meltas, and could easily take them down without losing a man. If the genestealers assault, then that means there are no daemons in the way (or else you could just have marines shooting them).

Nurglitch:

I took regular terminators because thats just what came to my head as a standard power weapon wielding unit.

However, the fractions are there to show how likely they are to occur overall. The law of averages say that everything balances out in the end, so you cant simply dismiss the 25% the bolt pistols will kill them.

Either way - again, the daemons dont really do anything outstanding in the only situation they do "better" in (not necessarily even). See above for a list of things they cant do well, which is pretty much everything else.

Night Lords:

I'd have to say, I'm finding your list of things they don't do well less convincing than DarkHound's list of things they do well. I use a couple of units myself and your opinions just don't accord with my experience, while his do. As he says: they have different roles, and the Lesser Daemons fulfill theirs quite well. From my perspective it's expected that you wouldn't find them useful since you seem to think they're supposed to perform the same role as Chaos Space Marines. Use the right tool for the job, and you won't wonder why you need a wrench when your hammer does a better job at hammering stuff.

...you dont find lack of shooting, lack of a transport, random turn entry, being killed by basic gunfire, and the fact that even in your own example, under non ideal conditions for CSM, the kill ratio is even, convincing...

Haha. (sorry, but that's really all i can say).

I like lesser demons in larger games... A tactic I employ often in larger games (4k+ points) usually involves me turbo boosting a 4 man biker squad toward my foes entrenched units (scouts, guardians, IG, etc.). They have a banner, of course Next turn, if I'm lucky, I teleport in a 20 man squad of demons 6" away, charge, and wipe out them. I then go around picking on whatever I can before they get wiped out, or I use them to tie big dumb things up in combat for a few turns (I tied my friends wraithlord up, even managing 2 wounds, by multicharging 2 groups of guardians and a wraithlord ). In smaller games I agree, theres no topping CSM's for troops. But in larger games I think the demons have their place.

Night Lords wrote:...you dont find lack of shooting, lack of a transport, random turn entry, being killed by basic gunfire, and the fact that even in your own example, under non ideal conditions for CSM, the kill ratio is even, convincing...

Haha. (sorry, but that's really all i can say).

Lack of shooting: they assault the turn they Deepstrike, why shoot?
Lack of transport: they Deepstrike, then assault. That is the metaphorical vehicle with which they are transported.
Random turn entry: fair point, but this is easy to cope with.
Being killed by basic gunfire: Maybe after the combat is over, and if they've won, they'll have done their job. They aren't getting shot beforehand since they assault off the Deepstrike.
Under non-idea conditions, the kill ratio is even: good, because I payed less for them.

EDIT: My friend, I do think we are going around in circles at this point.

DarkHound wrote:

Night Lords wrote:...you dont find lack of shooting, lack of a transport, random turn entry, being killed by basic gunfire, and the fact that even in your own example, under non ideal conditions for CSM, the kill ratio is even, convincing...

Haha. (sorry, but that's really all i can say).

Lack of shooting: they assault the turn they Deepstrike, why shoot?
Lack of transport: they Deepstrike, then assault. That is the metaphorical vehicle with which they are transported.
Random turn entry: fair point, but this is easy to cope with.
Being killed by basic gunfire: Maybe after the combat is over, and if they've won, they'll have done their job. They aren't getting shot beforehand since they assault off the Deepstrike.
Under non-idea conditions, the kill ratio is even: good, because I payed less for them.

EDIT: My friend, I do think we are going around in circles at this point.

Aye, for 13 point, 3 attack MEQ's its not bad. They'd still facepwn things like kroot, and any SM squad thats not kitted for close combat will probably lose.

Actually, not so much. That 3+ will see that Tac squad through. No, you want to engage low save GEQs if you are trying to win the combat.

DarkHound wrote:Actually, not so much. That 3+ will see that Tac squad through. No, you want to engage low save GEQs if you are trying to win the combat.

I've had moderate success with mine, but then again (as I said before) I never run em below 4k point games, and I ALWAYS run em in squads of 20. They're awesome for tieing up squads that I do NOT want shooting at me (dev squads, etc.) I had a particularly effective game this weekend, as I highlighted above.

We're not really running in circles, its pretty clear against 95% of the units out there, CSM are better. Its the 5 remaining percent that consists of units theres no real difference against, such as terminators, that there is an issue over.

This is very odd, as Nurglitch did the numbers himself, came out with even stats for similar points, yet magically daemons are better and viable...? I mean, even ignoring the other 95% of the situations where CSM dominate daemons, even your own examples show daemons have no advantage.

If Im going to make a unit a suicide unit (otherwise all the lack of shooting, transports, etc. come into play), why would I do so for a unit that has no advantage over the most point efficient & versatile troop choice in the game?

Night Lords wrote:We're not really running in circles, its pretty clear against 95% of the units out there, CSM are better. Its the 5 remaining percent that consists of units theres no real difference against, such as terminators, that there is an issue over.

This is very odd, as Nurglitch did the numbers himself, came out with even stats for similar points, yet magically daemons are better and viable...? I mean, even ignoring the other 95% of the situations where CSM dominate daemons, even your own examples show daemons have no advantage.

If Im going to make a unit a suicide unit (otherwise all the lack of shooting, transports, etc. come into play), why would I do so for a unit that has no advantage over the most point efficient & versatile troop choice in the game?

Thing is the unit doesn't HAVE to win the combat in larger games, just tie up the stuff you really don't want to face down for a couple of turns. Yes, in smaller games theres no reason to take them, they just don't do enough. But the fact they can come in off a marker in a rhino, or a PM squad, or khorne in rhino, or some bikers after turboing... theres a lot of tactical advantages to using them as a sac squad in big games is my point. Even if they don't wipe a unit, 20 demons will take a couple turns for most anything to kill off.

Let's consider what would happen with differing point costs. This is all comparing a summoned lesser daemon versus a 15 point CSM without upgrades.

At 7.5 points each, summoned lesser daemons versus chaos marines would be based on which side got the charge, but since they're completely safe until they arrive, daemons would mostly get the charge. If the daemons charge, they get six attacks, three hits, 1.5 wound, 0.5 dead per marine; marine counterattack is 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.5 wound, 1/3 dead per marine.

At 10 points each, it's still pretty much down to which side charges. 15 daemons versus 10 marines. If the daemons charge, 15 daemons gets 45 attacks, 22.5 hits, 11.25 wounds, 3.75 dead. Marine counter attack is 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 dead.

At 11 points each, let's consider 15 daemons versus 11 marines. The marine counter attack is 22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 3.667 dead.

At 12 points each, let's consider 15 daemons versus 12 marines. The marine counter attack is 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 dead.

So if we just look at the straight points for getting the assault, daemons don't win. But, let's instead consider summoned daemons versus CSM with a one rhino handicap.

At 13 points each, 14 daemons (182 points) versus 10 CSM (185 counting the rhino). The daemons get 42 attacks, 41 hits, 20.5 wounds, 6.83 kills. The CSM counterattack is 20 attacks, 10 wounds, 6.67 kills. So the daemons win combat slightly on average.

So, there you go. Summoned lesser daemons are overcosted by two points because they balanced their effectiveness on the assumption that the other side had to buy a rhino.

solkan wrote:Let's consider what would happen with differing point costs. This is all comparing a summoned lesser daemon versus a 15 point CSM without upgrades.

At 7.5 points each, summoned lesser daemons versus chaos marines would be based on which side got the charge, but since they're completely safe until they arrive, daemons would mostly get the charge. If the daemons charge, they get six attacks, three hits, 1.5 wound, 0.5 dead per marine; marine counterattack is 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.5 wound, 1/3 dead per marine.

At 10 points each, it's still pretty much down to which side charges. 15 daemons versus 10 marines. If the daemons charge, 15 daemons gets 45 attacks, 22.5 hits, 11.25 wounds, 3.75 dead. Marine counter attack is 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 dead.

At 11 points each, let's consider 15 daemons versus 11 marines. The marine counter attack is 22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 3.667 dead.

At 12 points each, let's consider 15 daemons versus 12 marines. The marine counter attack is 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 dead.

So if we just look at the straight points for getting the assault, daemons don't win. But, let's instead consider summoned daemons versus CSM with a one rhino handicap.

At 13 points each, 14 daemons (182 points) versus 10 CSM (185 counting the rhino). The daemons get 42 attacks, 41 hits, 20.5 wounds, 6.83 kills. The CSM counterattack is 20 attacks, 10 wounds, 6.67 kills. So the daemons win combat slightly on average.

So, there you go. Summoned lesser daemons are overcosted by two points because they balanced their effectiveness on the assumption that the other side had to buy a rhino.

I have no doubts about this, but the turn or two they buy from those guys shooting you could be vital depending.

I'm just saying tactical advantages of demons make em worthwhile if played correctly.

I maybe should have written seem overcosted instead of overcosted, but after running through those numbers, I'm convinced that GW did a similar calculation to come up with that point ratio.

I am inclined to agree, especially after how hard demons were nerfed in the codex. However, the greater demon is pretty undercosted, so i guess its a fine balance (130 pts for the GD if you make the champ without a power wep)

they are awesome , ds AND can charge in the turn they arrive for only 13 pts...like it!

Yeah, the Rhino's priced in there, to cover for the DS ability.

Not to mention the lack of casualties that the Daemons incur on their way to combat.

Nurglitch wrote:Not to mention the lack of casualties that the Daemons incur on their way to combat.

Except you forgot to mention how much more everyone else is likely to sustain casualties because of it. With CSM, you could get an extra rhino that negates a lot of your opponents shooting, is difficult to take down, and helps yourself move up the board anyways. You could also use it as cover (even for other rhinos). All for 35 points.

Just another reason daemons are worthless.

Night Lords:

Maybe I did forget to mention that. Alternatively, maybe I don't believe the Chaos Space Marines moving up the board will be handicapped by one less Rhino, and find that having 15 Lesser Daemons Deep Strike and charge works better than having 10 Chaos Space Marines move up the field in a Rhino.

I think what you're missing is the top-down view. So far you've given us the bottom-up view by which units are compared atomically. Other posters have taken the tack of addressing the top-down view wherein Lesser Daemons aren't wandering around on their own, and actually act as part of an army.

The top down view? Please, explain these mysterious points that counter the fact that 95% of the time CSMs do it better, and the other 5% their really is no advantage either way. Even in your own math the daemons didnt perform, or maybe my monitor is showing something different?

Night Lords wrote:The top down view? Please, explain these mysterious points that counter the fact that 95% of the time CSMs do it better, and the other 5% their really is no advantage either way. Even in your own math the daemons didnt perform, or maybe my monitor is showing something different?

hes not mathhammering, hes talking tactically. rarely will your demons be stuck away from the front lines, and rarely (meaning I've never had it happen) will they get shot up. They're a strategic asset, like LR's. yeah a LR is expensive, and CSM ones aren't nearly as good as marine ones. yeah, multi-meltas and things own em. But that doesn't stop us using em does it?

Zid wrote:

Night Lords wrote:The top down view? Please, explain these mysterious points that counter the fact that 95% of the time CSMs do it better, and the other 5% their really is no advantage either way. Even in your own math the daemons didnt perform, or maybe my monitor is showing something different?

hes not mathhammering, hes talking tactically. rarely will your demons be stuck away from the front lines, and rarely (meaning I've never had it happen) will they get shot up. They're a strategic asset, like LR's. yeah a LR is expensive, and CSM ones aren't nearly as good as marine ones. yeah, multi-meltas and things own em. But that doesn't stop us using em does it?

Except theres no tactics to it. They bring nothing to the table that CSM cant do better (I hardly consider only losing 2/3 guys but still losing a good thing). Youre paying for a weak nonthreatening "surprise" suicide attack. If the daemons could come in anywhere on the board, that would be different, as you could tie devastators up with a cheap 5 daemon unit. But this isnt the case. Where ever 1 CSM squad can go, another one can too.

Then, against orks and tyranids horde armies, you have less guns to shoot with, while offering absolutely nothing special on their own. Instead of daemons you could have a 10 man CSM squad with 24" bolters taking down orks (and again, a rhino). With daemons, theyll come in on your side of the board (you should be sitting back), sit there for a turn or two, and will charge with less attacks than a CSM squad would have.


Daemons will not "rarely" be stuck far away. If your goal is to get into CC, its going to take 2-3 turns to get there (depending on how smart your opponent is). Lesser daemons have a 50% of coming in after turn 1. Youll only be halfway up the board at that point in 2/3 game deployments. In dawn of war youll still be too far away to assault in most circumstances.