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I believe the primary benefit of LDs is their ability to increase density at the point of action. Rather than over/undercommitting, you have the ability to place them where you choose when they arrive.

Really, it's not horrible.

They have different uses and are completely different entries.

I don't know why we are continuing to parallel them.

CSM are good, but most will load them up on rhinos with special weapons, then an icon, maybe a champ.

All that costs points. Do you use 10 naked CSM? Does anyone?

So 10 CSM, 2 meltas, IoCG, and rhino are 215 points. They are great, they can do much.
Whoop di do.

10 Lesser daemons...are 13. That's it.
That's what JohnHwangDD and some others have been pointing at.

Lesser daemons are cheaper, not alot?, not when we are comparing them naked, but rarely CSM will be going around naked and without upgrades.

Lesser daemons will likely have twice as many bodies as the CSM who are tooled out.
They do different jobs so there's no use comparing them other than seeing what you can get with points.

275 points can get you 10 Raptors with 2 meltas, IoCG, champ with dual claws.
275 also gets you 20 lesser daemons and enough points to get 3 personal icons.

Etc.

You can see that lesser daemons gets you bodies (density as the previous poster writes) and to some that's where the money is.

I've had good results with 20 man squads...able to side swipe horde armies at an alarming speed, stuff like ork hordes and tyranid hordes are batted away.
20 Man is really not that expensive at high points and takes an effort by the opponent and resources to remove them.

20 Lesser daemons charging MEQ or TEQ's will score some kills and tarpit them.

They are a functional unit that depends more on application and usage rather than theoryhammering it. I used to hate lesser daemons, took the line that CSM are better for only 2 points more.

Then I gave them a try and the world turned upside down.

IMO (that means my opinion and I have to spell it out for the following statement) I feel anyone who says that Lesser Daemons are inferior and don't warrent usage has not used them. If you don't use them, you can't have a balanced arguement for or against them.

If you do use them and still keep the line, you are not using them either effectively or put much thought into playing to their strengths instead of shining a spot light only on their shortcomings....even creating a shortcoming out of nothing (comparing them to CSM).

/Shrug.

Possessed, Dreads, Lesser daemons, and yes even Spawn are functional units. It's that everything else looks shiny and bright that makes them look less appealing or look like crap.
But on-paper is different than on the table.

they can be useful for distraction
I don't know too much because I won't use them (I use Iron Warriors CSM)

Now we ARE going around in a circle. I made that same arguement on the last page (or was it the page before that?).

Sanctjud wrote:They have different uses and are completely different entries.

I don't know why we are continuing to parallel them.

CSM are good, but most will load them up on rhinos with special weapons, then an icon, maybe a champ.

All that costs points. Do you use 10 naked CSM? Does anyone?

So 10 CSM, 2 meltas, IoCG, and rhino are 215 points. They are great, they can do much.
Whoop di do.

10 Lesser daemons...are 13. That's it.
That's what JohnHwangDD and some others have been pointing at.

Lesser daemons are cheaper, not alot?, not when we are comparing them naked, but rarely CSM will be going around naked and without upgrades.

Lesser daemons will likely have twice as many bodies as the CSM who are tooled out.
They do different jobs so there's no use comparing them other than seeing what you can get with points.

275 points can get you 10 Raptors with 2 meltas, IoCG, champ with dual claws.
275 also gets you 20 lesser daemons and enough points to get 3 personal icons.

Etc.

You can see that lesser daemons gets you bodies (density as the previous poster writes) and to some that's where the money is.

I've had good results with 20 man squads...able to side swipe horde armies at an alarming speed, stuff like ork hordes and tyranid hordes are batted away.
20 Man is really not that expensive at high points and takes an effort by the opponent and resources to remove them.

20 Lesser daemons charging MEQ or TEQ's will score some kills and tarpit them.

They are a functional unit that depends more on application and usage rather than theoryhammering it. I used to hate lesser daemons, took the line that CSM are better for only 2 points more.

Then I gave them a try and the world turned upside down.

IMO (that means my opinion and I have to spell it out for the following statement) I feel anyone who says that Lesser Daemons are inferior and don't warrent usage has not used them. If you don't use them, you can't have a balanced arguement for or against them.

If you do use them and still keep the line, you are not using them either effectively or put much thought into playing to their strengths instead of shining a spot light only on their shortcomings....even creating a shortcoming out of nothing (comparing them to CSM).

/Shrug.

Possessed, Dreads, Lesser daemons, and yes even Spawn are functional units. It's that everything else looks shiny and bright that makes them look less appealing or look like crap.
But on-paper is different than on the table.

exactly my point Sanc. They aren't MEANT to be a "zomg I pwned you" unit, and I never run em in squads of less than 20 and in larger games.

And not to mention they can CAPTURE POINTS AS WELL! So that means on the last turn, when your down on your luck, if they haven't already came in, they can pop out on top of an objective and swamp it. Or run a few 5 man squads in lower point games and sit them on points. Yeah, its a 65 point capture squad, but if your lacking troops its way cheaper than CSM's (75 points for 5 w/o upgrades.

Also, what people fail to forget, is that if you rush a rhino or LR up the middle, or TURBOBOOST SOME BIKES up the side with marks, place the units far enough away to not get assaulted (I normally charge things like devs) its quite effective to bring demons in on the back lines of your foe.

Sanctjud:

"CSM are good, but most will load them up on rhinos with special weapons, then an icon, maybe a champ.

All that costs points. Do you use 10 naked CSM? Does anyone? "

Does anyone use Daemons? No. So just because thats not their optimal loadout, yet its still better than lesser daemons, we have to throw it away?

The rest of your argument hinges on this moot point...and the fact you said spawn are functional units...

Zid:

Incase they drop in last turn...? Am I the only one who can realistically imagine how this will turn out? Here are the odds they will turn up on last turn: 0.8%

Sit them on points...without guns a 5+ save?

Bikes.....?

----

Now no offense to anyone, but it appears from certain suggestions here (possessed, bikes, spawn...) that you guys arnt talking about a competitive list. It puts into perspective how people can possibly cling to these daemons when 99.9% of the time CSM of equal points do it better or just as good that rare time.

Night Lords wrote:Now no offense to anyone, but it appears from certain suggestions here (possessed, bikes, spawn...) that you guys arnt talking about a competitive list. It puts into perspective how people can possibly cling to these daemons when 99.9% of the time CSM of equal points do it better.

Methinks you exaggerate a tad...

And what do you mean by "competitive"? If you talk about tournament standard Dual Lash, Termicide, Mech PMs & 3x3 Oblit, then basic 15-pt CSM don't belong there, either. Or are players allowed to vary from the template and still be competitive? And quite frankly, with every model in the tournament standard list running roughly 30 pts per wound, a few 13-pt wounds wouldn't be a bad idea...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Now no offense to anyone, but it appears from certain suggestions here (possessed, bikes, spawn...) that you guys arnt talking about a competitive list. It puts into perspective how people can possibly cling to these daemons when 99.9% of the time CSM of equal points do it better.

Methinks you exaggerate a tad...

And what do you mean by "competitive"? If you talk about tournament standard Dual Lash, Termicide, Mech PMs & 3x3 Oblit, then basic 15-pt CSM don't belong there, either. Or are players allowed to vary from the template and still be competitive? And quite frankly, with every model in the tournament standard list running roughly 30 pts per wound, a few 13-pt wounds wouldn't be a bad idea...

Its not an exaggeration (I edited in "or equal"). In their own examples they cant even come up with a situation where the daemons do better. I honestly cant think of one situation, as that 0.1% was reserved for banshees, but if a 10 man squad gets wiped out, a 10 man daemon squad will too after fearless tests. So either way, you lose with them, except the marines can actually shoot banshees.

Funny, I dont run Dual Lash, PMs, or Oblits (and 3x3 oblits isnt the best loadout either, but thats a different argument). The difference with my list is, I actually have math and realistic theory behind my list, and its proven itself many times already.

Sanctjud wrote:Possessed, Dreads, Lesser daemons, and yes even Spawn are functional units. It's that everything else looks shiny and bright that makes them look less appealing or look like crap.

Yes, each of those units have their strengths, but they all share the same weakness - they cost points! And that means when I take them I can't spend those points on everything else that looks shiny and bright! So in conclusion, Possessed, Dreads, Lesser Daemons, and Spawn are only poor when you compare them to everything else and therefore I take them all the time when I can't take anything else. Yay!