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If they were trying to reach him, probably hellions, which aren't winged. Scourges would be hiding in cover sniping at him with shardcarbines. Hellions would be tearing him apart at range while leaping forwards to engage him in CC.

I heard that marines can decide to exit any combat they wish, even if they win. You have to take armour saves of course, but that's not the point.

They are always going to outmelee you and they have poisons all over the place. You have to shoot the T3 crap out of them with anything you can and assault with dreds. Can't shoot at assault, can't glance the AV13 etc.
You could, perhaps, stick some TL AC dreads close to your troops, run away if you're assaulted and charge with dread.

I don't play marines, these are just a few thoughts

Marines can choose to fail any morale test they are required to take and make a fall back move.

if the enemy makes a sweeping advance they, instead of being caught, count as being fearless and take armor saves in acordance.

they can do this against shooting wounds too and escape from getting assaulted.

I feel you pain. just saw the one local DE player mop three games in a row without breaking a sweat. one game was done by turn three. I have never played against them but it does seem like taking a mech heavy force and then reserving everything might work. its what i would try. I play nids right now though,,, the marines are packed away. dont know what i will do with my nids.

Some advice not given yet:
1. Deploy on the back edge to deny his ~27 charge range. In a typical 'pitched battle' set up, you're going to have to hug your back edge to deny his first turn charge.
2. Use some Infiltrators. Yeah, they're a suicide unit, but might just provide a feint to sucker some heat off of you.
*deep breathe* (I don't believe I'm going to write this):
3. Combat Squads. Full ten man crews will take wyches two rounds to eat, letting the girls, or other DE lose on their turn. 5 man crews will fold in one h2h round, releasing the DE on *your* turn, so you can shoot them up.

I really don't like this last piece, but it's how I'd go, if having to face DE with SM. I'm carrying this over from being a tau player too, thus always outmatched in h2h, and always hoping my FWs or XV8s break away or die from h2h so I can shoot up the enemy on my turn.

A couple of the last posts have advised using Combat Tactics. Don't. Even if you deploy far more forward, and engage the DE further into the field, don't 'break'. As they'll be able to Run and Fleet and re-assault you anyway. Being able to shoot them on the run is great, but the AV 11 vehicle can just calmly pursue them to the Table Edge.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

sennacherib wrote:I play nids right now though,,, the marines are packed away. dont know what i will do with my nids.

1. Less MCs their high T is greatly nulled with everything being poison in DE.
2.Lash whips in big units so you can have everything in base to base. Fast-fast-fast cocaine snorting wyches and high Inits mean nothing when wrapped in a Lash Whip.

3. My bugs are shelved for now, but if I knew there was a lot of DE in my future, it'd be two large crews of Warriors - LS&BS, Deathspitters. T-Primed. GeneStealers & gaunts. There'd be some other Hiveminds in there too.

When you say winged do you mean these?



or these?

*deep breathe* (I don't believe I'm going to write this):
3. Combat Squads. Full ten man crews will take wyches two rounds to eat, letting the girls, or other DE lose on their turn. 5 man crews will fold in one h2h round, releasing the DE on *your* turn, so you can shoot them up.

Leaving the 5 remaining marines to shoot at 10 FNP'd Wyches? Small units is a real issue when playing DE because you end up giving away a LOT of pain tokens...and thats not going to make anything easier.

What would an all reserves outflanking/mycetic assault tyranid do against DE, btw?

That's what I use and I am thinking about dropping "pods" close to transports, tentacles in, and devilgaunt whatever troops it pops out, for starters.

The problem with outflanking is you don't know for sure where your army is coming in at. If you have multiple units doing it, then there is a good chance that they will be split up, which agianst DE is a death sentence for half of them (speed to bring whole army to one side). Dropping in against an army with that much speed is also an issue. If you bring something they don't want to deal with, they move away, if you bring something they can deal with... you units get to sit for a turn and take it. Coming in from your own edge is also dangerous, since half of your army will come in on turn 2, the DE player will be most of the way to your zone, ready for a turn 3 assault with the other half of your army trickling in.

Honestly the best way to combat DE is is to castle up as best you can, with layers of units to absorb assaults and avoid multi-charges. If you spread out, the opponent will just go for local superiority instead of trying to engage your whole army.

I play dark eldar and I noticed a weakness to walkers in cc haywire grenades arent as great as you think when you only get a max of 15 attacks and needing 6's to hit.

Eura wrote:I play dark eldar and I noticed a weakness to walkers in cc haywire grenades arent as great as you think when you only get a max of 15 attacks and needing 6's to hit.

You have about a 54% chance of inflicting at least one meaningful hit (meaning a hit (on 6), that glances (on 2+) or pens (on a 6), and inflicts a stun or better (4+ on a glance, 2+ on a pen)). After that, on the next round you'll be hitting on 4+. The dreadnought has a 20% chance of inflicting a single wound, if you've brought shardnets (and if you plan on tackling a dreadnought with wyches, why wouldn't you?). Wyches win, if not very fast. Really, a good part of the power of wyches lies in effectively castrating nasty units, particularly ones comprised of a single enemy (like most MCs, or most walkers). If you're facing off against three armoured sentinels, yeah, you're probably going to lose, but the enemy's also wasted a massive number of points on something not all that usefull (after all, you can just shoot them apart beforehand).

Eura wrote:I play dark eldar and I noticed a weakness to walkers in cc haywire grenades arent as great as you think when you only get a max of 15 attacks and needing 6's to hit.

To add to the defense of haywires, when most armies units that get stuck in CC with a walker the unit are screwed, even if the sarge has an idiot fist (like 10 chance to kill the walker if charged by it) SMs have krak nades, which are nearly useless against AV12 dreds, and completely useless against the AV 13 monsters.

The haywire has a great chance of hurting a walker in CC, much better than krak. Krak needs a 6 and a 6 to do anything at all. Haywires need a 6 then a 2+ to do anything. Haywires don't care if the walker is AV 13, the down side is they don't care if it is AV 10 either.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Eura wrote:I play dark eldar and I noticed a weakness to walkers in cc haywire grenades arent as great as you think when you only get a max of 15 attacks and needing 6's to hit.

You have about a 54% chance of inflicting at least one meaningful hit (meaning a hit (on 6), that glances (on 2+) or pens (on a 6), and inflicts a stun or better (4+ on a glance, 2+ on a pen)). After that, on the next round you'll be hitting on 4+. The dreadnought has a 20% chance of inflicting a single wound, if you've brought shardnets (and if you plan on tackling a dreadnought with wyches, why wouldn't you?). Wyches win, if not very fast. Really, a good part of the power of wyches lies in effectively castrating nasty units, particularly ones comprised of a single enemy (like most MCs, or most walkers). If you're facing off against three armoured sentinels, yeah, you're probably going to lose, but the enemy's also wasted a massive number of points on something not all that usefull (after all, you can just shoot them apart beforehand).

Anybody who does not give a dread xtra armour is playing them wrong. So stunning it will not help.

I`ve had a chance to play agaginat DE and they are scary. especially when the can deep strike, WWB etc etc.

What I have had success with (I`ve only used BA against them).

1. Dreads. If they get in melee with DE, the DE unit is done.

2.Taking out the dark lances. my buddy is notorious for rolling 1s with dark lances but they are a very real threat. If you can win the shooting war, you are half way there. Killing his ravagers and when he has them his raiders is a priority. Raiders tend to be ignored by some people in favour of the ravagers but remember this. It still has a dark lance and likely troops on board he wants to get into your face with. If it is a choice, I would rather take out the Raider full of troops that can still take out my armour than the Ravager that can take out my armour but not disgorge a real threat.

3. By taking out the transports you hinder his ability to take objectives as well.

4. Deep strikers are effective especially if you go second. But...remember the flicker field that reduces range. I`ve pretty much dropped the infernus pistols I used to carry because of this. with BAs I can go in fairly acurately and still get a melta shot in but if you are not within 6 inches of your target your pistols, melta guns and double tap goodness will be useless.

I would suggest this if you are playing basic marines against DE.

You need to split your list in a classic anvil and hammer style. The anvil should have a combo of armour and troops (to hold objectives on your side. two maxed out Tactical squads (ML, Flamer) with Rhino/Razorback combo depending on points. If you take rhinos give them the extra storm bolter, if you take Razorbacks keep the HB but an upgrade of Twin Las (what I use) for range (and some things like his monsters, ravagers etc) may not be bad. Predator with HB sponsons. I use a Baal but you can get almost the same firepower from a normal Pred upgraded. A thunderfire cannon will make a mess. His vehicles are open topped and his troops will also be vulnerable even in cover. If you can afford it take a vindicator. It will get his attention so expect to lose it. This type of anvil gives you a lot of fire power and decent range but also gives you some flexibility to either move troops around or deal with him deep striking.

For your hammer.

Dread. Any type (preferably the ironclad with melta gun, heavy flamer and HK missiles). Put him in a drop pod. This way you can get close.
the HKs are back up in case you miss with the melta. If your anvil force can take out whatever transport vehicle he has then the dread can finish them off with the HF when they get out. Give the drop pod a locater beacon. Drop pods get ignored until they become a hassle. Your opponent will be busy with the dread (a more immediate threat) and your shooty tanks in the Anvil force.

Shooty terminators or TH assault ones. Two assault cannons. deepstike near the beacon when you can and shoot the crap out of whatever. Thunderhammer dudes are somewhat more survivable but will not be able to damamge much when they arrive. So it is a toss up. Hope that the shooty guys destroy what they inetnd to and face some nasty weapons or send in the TH guys and hope he does not move out of charge range. I use Vanguard vets with storm shields myself. This way I have options, i can land and shoot or do a heroiic intervention and charge when I land. Storm shields keep them, alive for the inevitable concentration of fire. Beware though they are expensive.

I also include a small unit of scouts. Infiltrate, with a heavy bolter and all armed with bolters. Great for taking (not really holding objectives). my opponent always diverts ressources to deal with them and that is fine. if he does not he rarely has much left to deal with them later.

A land speeder helps. i take a Typhoon. Can deepstrike and help the Hammer or stay back with the Anvil.

I`ve had two victories and a tie and the tie was due to bad rolling on my part.

Hope this helps.

Assault cannons are bad on Tactical terminators when, for the same price, you can get 2 missile shots and keep your storm bolter.

Grey Templar wrote:Assault cannons are bad on Tactical terminators when, for the same price, you can get 2 missile shots and keep your storm bolter.

I disagree. situation dictates. against DE Assualt cannon win out over the missiles. A bolter shot is almost as effective as a missile launcher against dismounted DE. You get 8 shots that wound on a 2+ with the Assault cannon combo vs your 6 that have 2 at 2+ and 4 that wound on 3s. At the same time, the Mls only give you two real shots at vehicles, with 4 hail mairies but the 8 assault cannons will guarantee destruction. As well against things like chronos pain engines the assualt cannons will likely kill it or get close to killing it whereas the mls will get 2 wounds.

Crantor wrote:

Anybody who does not give a dread xtra armour is playing them wrong. So stunning it will not help.

I`ve had a chance to play agaginat DE and they are scary. especially when the can deep strike, WWB etc etc.

What I have had success with (I`ve only used BA against them).

1. Dreads. If they get in melee with DE, the DE unit is done.

2.Taking out the dark lances. my buddy is notorious for rolling 1s with dark lances but they are a very real threat. If you can win the shooting war, you are half way there. Killing his ravagers and when he has them his raiders is a priority. Raiders tend to be ignored by some people in favour of the ravagers but remember this. It still has a dark lance and likely troops on board he wants to get into your face with. If it is a choice, I would rather take out the Raider full of troops that can still take out my armour than the Ravager that can take out my armour but not disgorge a real threat.

3. By taking out the transports you hinder his ability to take objectives as well.

4. Deep strikers are effective especially if you go second. But...remember the flicker field that reduces range. I`ve pretty much dropped the infernus pistols I used to carry because of this. with BAs I can go in fairly acurately and still get a melta shot in but if you are not within 6 inches of your target your pistols, melta guns and double tap goodness will be useless.

I would suggest this if you are playing basic marines against DE.

You need to split your list in a classic anvil and hammer style. The anvil should have a combo of armour and troops (to hold objectives on your side. two maxed out Tactical squads (ML, Flamer) with Rhino/Razorback combo depending on points. If you take rhinos give them the extra storm bolter, if you take Razorbacks keep the HB but an upgrade of Twin Las (what I use) for range (and some things like his monsters, ravagers etc) may not be bad. Predator with HB sponsons. I use a Baal but you can get almost the same firepower from a normal Pred upgraded. A thunderfire cannon will make a mess. His vehicles are open topped and his troops will also be vulnerable even in cover. If you can afford it take a vindicator. It will get his attention so expect to lose it. This type of anvil gives you a lot of fire power and decent range but also gives you some flexibility to either move troops around or deal with him deep striking.

For your hammer.

Dread. Any type (preferably the ironclad with melta gun, heavy flamer and HK missiles). Put him in a drop pod. This way you can get close.
the HKs are back up in case you miss with the melta. If your anvil force can take out whatever transport vehicle he has then the dread can finish them off with the HF when they get out. Give the drop pod a locater beacon. Drop pods get ignored until they become a hassle. Your opponent will be busy with the dread (a more immediate threat) and your shooty tanks in the Anvil force.

Shooty terminators or TH assault ones. Two assault cannons. deepstike near the beacon when you can and shoot the crap out of whatever. Thunderhammer dudes are somewhat more survivable but will not be able to damamge much when they arrive. So it is a toss up. Hope that the shooty guys destroy what they inetnd to and face some nasty weapons or send in the TH guys and hope he does not move out of charge range. I use Vanguard vets with storm shields myself. This way I have options, i can land and shoot or do a heroiic intervention and charge when I land. Storm shields keep them, alive for the inevitable concentration of fire. Beware though they are expensive.

I also include a small unit of scouts. Infiltrate, with a heavy bolter and all armed with bolters. Great for taking (not really holding objectives). my opponent always diverts ressources to deal with them and that is fine. if he does not he rarely has much left to deal with them later.

A land speeder helps. i take a Typhoon. Can deepstrike and help the Hammer or stay back with the Anvil.

I`ve had two victories and a tie and the tie was due to bad rolling on my part.

Hope this helps.

I have never given a dred extra armor. Paying 15 points for an upgrade that only ignores 1/6 of the possible results is a waste of points in my mind.

I've also killed dreds in CC with DE, you have to have the right units (wyches or talos), but it is doable and often worth it.

Taking out the dark lances only works when he actually spams them. It is possible in the new book to lean much more on blasters, which are infantry based and longer ranged than they used to be. Not to mention the heat lance, which is a solid weapon.

DE can take a fast foot list too, with hellions being usable as troops, beast packs being solid screen/assault, and jetbikes being really fast, they can bring a vehicleless, or vehicle light army (think reserved razorwings for some 4 missile alpha striking).

It is nightshields that reduce range, and it doesn't reduce range of weapons that only have 6" range. So your infernus pistols work fine... unless they go against flicker fields, which is a 5+ invul save.

Going mechanized does work, as DE will kill most footlists with torrents of poisoned fire and cc attacks. I wouldn't bother so much with heavy armor though, as the dark light weapons drop it to 12 anyways.

Vanguard vets.... are easy points for DE to take out. Splinter weapons don't care how expensive your 3+ save is, or if it an invul. Vanguard will die to torrents, and have to choose your battles very carefully to not get outclassed in CC even. Wyches, esp with shardnets are to be avoided. Pretty much anything worth attacking with vets is going to kill them at higher int, anything the vets could crush, is probably way to cheap to be a good target (yippee cabal warriors).

Shooty termies are decent against DE, assuming you keep them away from rapid fire, and have better targets for the AP2 weapons. The real question is are they good against other armies? Not a big fan of list tailoring.

Scouts are good, get some back with 2+ poison small blasts. Watch out for boosting your enemies movement (don't want to let beast packs get 12" closer for no reason lol).

Landspeeders typhoons and MM/HF are good against DE, since the HF kills on a 2+ no cover, the MM kills the tranports on a 3+ after pen, and ML of either fire mode clear DE reasonably well.

Njal the storm caller is a perfect choise against dark eldar

what about dual HB speeders? They aren't nearly as good or versatile as typhoons, but

18 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound. For a 180 point unit that can keep out of assault range it seems pretty potent to me. don't have the DE dex yet though so I can't say for sure.

Would multiple t-fires be good?

thunderfires possess fragility that is hard to justify in most lists outside of a dedicated gunline, and dual HBs are likewise too specialized at doing meh damage to be brought to the table. two S8 shots will do more damage than 3 S5 per speeder.

Brother-Thunder wrote:thunderfires possess fragility that is hard to justify in most lists outside of a dedicated gunline, and dual HBs are likewise too specialized at doing meh damage to be brought to the table. two S8 shots will do more damage than 3 S5 per speeder.

Obviously missile launchers are better than Heavy bolters. I wasn't arguing otherwise.

I was arguing that heavy bolters and an extra 90 points might... might be better than missile launchers

Lord PoPo wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:thunderfires possess fragility that is hard to justify in most lists outside of a dedicated gunline, and dual HBs are likewise too specialized at doing meh damage to be brought to the table. two S8 shots will do more damage than 3 S5 per speeder.

Obviously missile launchers are better than Heavy bolters. I wasn't arguing otherwise.

I was arguing that heavy bolters and an extra 90 points might... might be better than missile launchers

Fair enough. My experience with heavy bolters is that they usually do diddley against important stuff is why I say that.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Lord PoPo wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:thunderfires possess fragility that is hard to justify in most lists outside of a dedicated gunline, and dual HBs are likewise too specialized at doing meh damage to be brought to the table. two S8 shots will do more damage than 3 S5 per speeder.

Obviously missile launchers are better than Heavy bolters. I wasn't arguing otherwise.

I was arguing that heavy bolters and an extra 90 points might... might be better than missile launchers

Fair enough. My experience with heavy bolters is that they usually do diddley against important stuff is why I say that.

and that very may well be true, I was just putting up a suggestion, but considering that you've played many, many more games than I, and play De, you've probably got a better understanding of it than i do

Lord PoPo wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Lord PoPo wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:thunderfires possess fragility that is hard to justify in most lists outside of a dedicated gunline, and dual HBs are likewise too specialized at doing meh damage to be brought to the table. two S8 shots will do more damage than 3 S5 per speeder.

Obviously missile launchers are better than Heavy bolters. I wasn't arguing otherwise.

I was arguing that heavy bolters and an extra 90 points might... might be better than missile launchers

Fair enough. My experience with heavy bolters is that they usually do diddley against important stuff is why I say that.

and that very may well be true, I was just putting up a suggestion, but considering that you've played many, many more games than I, and play De, you've probably got a better understanding of it than i do

Thanks

Indeed, 3-6 s5 shots can hurt a raider, but the dice rolled are usually going to do nothing. Heavy bolters are good for clearing warriors away from backfield objectives, but cover negates that advantage fast. DE fear mass high S shots, thus spamming things like typhoon speeders and riflemen dreads makes us cry.

to think of it, dual HB would work against raiders, if only inconsistantly, but where would they fit in a good all-comers list? To add, consider that frag templates can hit more DE at a time, and wound almost as often makes typhoon a better choice. While HB/HB Speeders would be a decent choice, what it can do, a typhoon can do better.

Not to mention that raiders will be destroyed, leaving squads out in the open bunched up. DE on foot are pretty fast, so it is nice to have to option to take shots at them like that.

My current 1750 C:SM list has 2 dakka preds, 1 4x ML dev, 3 flamer/ML tacs (in rhino bunkers), HB scout, TH/SH termies in crusader, null zone libby, and 2 typhoons speeders. Against DE I would fire the preds at raiders, probably destroying at least one. Then fire the tactical ML at transports. If I ground enough, and have multiple ML units in position, I then multi template the grounded units.

The typhoons do really work great, and are worth the extra expense. duel bolter speeders might as well be upgraded to dakka preds (higher armor, more shots, different slot)

notabot187 wrote:Not to mention that raiders will be destroyed, leaving squads out in the open bunched up. DE on foot are pretty fast, so it is nice to have to option to take shots at them like that.

My current 1750 C:SM list has 2 dakka preds, 1 4x ML dev, 3 flamer/ML tacs (in rhino bunkers), HB scout, TH/SH termies in crusader, null zone libby, and 2 typhoons speeders. Against DE I would fire the preds at raiders, probably destroying at least one. Then fire the tactical ML at transports. If I ground enough, and have multiple ML units in position, I then multi template the grounded units.

The typhoons do really work great, and are worth the extra expense. duel bolter speeders might as well be upgraded to dakka preds (higher armor, more shots, different slot)

that's absolutely great to hear, as I, personally field typhoons myself.

I've not had much trouble with Dark Eldar. Warriors don't scare me, just about any unit except Incubi bounce right off my Grey Hunters, and my missile launcher long fangs just shred their vehicles.

The only vehicles I take are Rhinos and Razors, so their Lance weaponry ends up being really expensive missile launchers stook @ 35 pt boxes.

Griever wrote:I've not had much trouble with Dark Eldar. Warriors don't scare me, just about any unit except Incubi bounce right off my Grey Hunters, and my missile launcher long fangs just shred their vehicles.

The only vehicles I take are Rhinos and Razors, so their Lance weaponry ends up being really expensive missile launchers stook @ 35 pt boxes.

Face off against different list types and things might change. DE have several units that can take out grey hunters in CC, warriors and true born are not them. In fact other than shooting lots of shots and darklight weapons, they don't do that much. Wyches, hellions, beast packs, grotesques, incubi, and archons will shred or at least attrition units that one normally thinks as being solid in CC.

Many players are still stuck in last book thinking that lance + raider spam is the final word of DE, and to be honest, that type of list isn't even particularly good now. When the book has been out a bit longer you will see different and better builds (and a bunch of people who didn't adapt auctions on EBay).

As for the expensive ML comment... Such is playing a xeno army. Cheaper and easier to kill troops, premium prices for everything else. Anyways, the expensive weapons are to just ensure that the rest of the army has targets, as DE are really good at taking on infantry in the open. That 35 point can vs expensive opener looks better when the cheap assault/shooting unit then eats the contents.

Grey Templar wrote:Assault cannons are bad on Tactical terminators when, for the same price, you can get 2 missile shots and keep your storm bolter.

Seems to me that 8 shots that wound on 2's + ignore feel no pain is better than 2 blast that wound on 3's and don't ignore feel no pain.
If they don't have a pain token, then it doesn't matter, bolters will tear them up.
You don't bypass FNP on wracks... but that's what power fists are for.

-Matt

You don't need to fist to beat wracks. A sarge fist on the charge averages 1.5 dead wracks, yippee. You need a squad that can just put volume of wounds on them. They have a 6+/ 4+fnp. Not exactly all that tough in CC. Against shooting in cover... wracks are pretty annoying, especially since they are coming at you with their melt your marine face templates.

Assault wracks with assault squads with any efficient load-out. Assault them with TH/SS termies. Just don't give them a chance to template you, and don't charge bad cc squads into them (so no tac squad charges).

Now this is pre-5th edition, but S5 is enough to ruin DE days. Remember their weapons don't care if you have rhinos or landraiders. Go old school on them and bring out the heavy bolters devastators/havocs. Sure 4 MLs firing krak are scary but breaking piniatas with 12 HB shots or saving them to "pick up" the goodies that fall out should ruin most DE armies.

And unless you are a Black Templar, never field land raiders - you are just feeding them a way to pot shot you behind the eight ball on the first turn. If you are BT don't leave home without a blessing.