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The A number 1 thing that makes a good competitive player is knowledge.

You have to know the rules and what every army can do.

After that, you must know what your army is capable of doing in any given situation so that you can formulate an effective plan.

Beyond that is practice. Practice, practice, practice. That will give you a good head for tactics and situational decision making.

And, above all else: cheat like crazy! Hahaha, just kidding. Luck does play a big part in this game though, and in a game where all else is equal or nearly equal (layer skill, list, etc.) luck is what will determine who wins and who loses. You have to be able to accept that to play competitive 40K and not let it bother you if you don't always win (which you won't).

Reecius wrote:
And, above all else: cheat like crazy! Hahaha, just kidding. Luck does play a big part in this game though, and in a game where all else is equal or nearly equal (layer skill, list, etc.) luck is what will determine who wins and who loses. You have to be able to accept that to play competitive 40K and not let it bother you if you don't always win (which you won't).

Oh Reecius, you did it now!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352134.page

Schnitzel wrote:

daedalus wrote:Well, I was going to link to dash's awesome thread at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314983.page, but then I found that it's edited out. :(

I actually referenced that in the OP. It was what made me make this thread to be honest

Actually, that's a broken link now. :( To a different (and now defunct) thread.

In it, I noted that I was ranked the #1 40k player in the world (a title I held only briefly as I haven't been to a Grand Tournament since August of last year). Then I outlined basically what it takes to become a professional 40k player. UNforunately the blog I wrote it for is defunct, which broke the link to the post I made about it.

It was a satire, but it would have been funny reading for you. Early start at 11:30 AM, roll out of bed and start warming up before starting flash card exercises (you know the ones that all competitive players do - flashing a 40k unit and then naming the best way to kill it with every codex). Flash cards for an hour, internet research for new META, lunch....much discussion about how to keep your METAgame above everyone else's METAgame, how META differs in different areas and what happens when META clashes, and how my META was basically so far ahead of everyone elses's META that I was actually about to lap them.

Ah, was fun to write, fun to read, but is no more. I try keeping Dakka entertained with other stuff - like the link you referenced in your OP.
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On topic: There's a link in my bio about Tournament Survival and Success. Please read it. A *lot* of the stuff in there relates to being competitive. What questions to ask opponents, how to prioritize targets, that sort of thing. Short of giving you a lengthy explanation, I'm just going to tell you that competitive ability is a combination of intelligence and knowledge.

You need:

Money to buy stuff

The ability to take criticism

The ability to play with people that are good enough to levy worthwhile criticism

The ability to do this frequently


Rinse wash repeat

First of all, 40K isn't really an ideal arena for competition. It's not like a sport or even a well-designed game; the rules are vague at the edges, and the parameters of victory do not always give a level playing field. All sports and games have an element of skill and an element of chance, but the elements of chance in a typical 40K game are not often ones that in-game skill can overcome, unlike luck-based events in other competitive arenas. That said, you can play 40K competitively, but I think that your current playstyle will not only make you a better player, but also give you a lot more enjoyment in the game.

That said, games should be played to win. That's why we keep score. And it's true what many posters say - not all army lists are equal. You can be a great player, but if your list is not able to do what you want or need, you are handcuffed. With that in mind, the most important skill in competitive 40K is not tactical skill, but army list design. We can call it strategic skill if you like, but it's not really much of that. And it is also true that good players will be those that know the rules, the tricks, and the armies backwards. However, successful competitive army list design does not emphasise knowing all the things you're likely to see. You need to know it to know if your list can handle it, but you don't really need to have a wide variety of strategies to deal with all the opponents and tricks you're likely to see.

In a broad sense, 1v1 competition of any kind can be broken down to being reactive or proactive. The first and generally easier path to success is to be proactive - to take the initiative and dictate gameplay. However, being reactive is also viable in most sports and games - where you have a broad and intuitive grasp of the tactics needed to win, are able to analyse what it is your opponent is doing and what he wants to do, and respond in a way to turn it to your advantage. That is almost always more difficult, but in sports, a true master is able to blunt his opponent even when his opponent is taking the initiative, and thus take it away from him; he always has the answer, is always two steps ahead. Watch a really good tennis match, or read the accounts of the great generals of history - there is a give and take, a mastery of the situation and the opponent, and the ability to analyse, formulate a response, and counter the best the enemy has.

40K is not like that, at least in the tournament sense. The nature of the game (UGOIGO, lots of range, limited turns) skews this proactive-reactive axis much, much more in favour of proactivity. Look at the most 'competitive' lists, the latest Internet power lists. They are not designed to counter any kind of opponent, list, or tactic they might see. They are designed such that the opponent becomes as irrelevant as possible. In other words, they are designed with a particular strategy in mind (all reserve, alpha strike, 1st turn charge, S6 spam, melta spam, spam spam, etc.) and they are designed to do that regardless of whatever opponent they may see. At most, they may have one other strategy that they switch to in very common circumstances, such as if the opponent is an all-reserve vs an all-deploy list. Ultimately, this is the most basic key to tournament competitiveness. First, your list must be able to table any weak list/weak opponent, while taking as few casualties as possible. This is how you score highly and place yourself better in later rounds. Then, your list must have the ability to negate other power lists in a rock-paper-scissors style at best. Some armies and lists have no real weakness, others have lists that they will fare poorly against. But the easiest kind of list to design and win with is one that makes the opponent as irrelevant as you can - no matter what he has or what he brings, you'll still play 'your game'. And if your list has nothing but points-efficient units that are optimised for exactly the strategy you want, without the ability to confuse yourself with alternative tactics, you have a good chance against any opponent.

You can play 40K in a reactive style. You can look at an opponent's list, understand what he's likely to do, look at your list and work out what you can do that will exploit his weaknesses and avoid his strengths. You can look at his movement and deployment and look for mistakes, weaknesses, opportunities. But you don't have to. There are several competitive lists that have no blast markers or templates, for example. Against such lists, your opponent can bunch his troops all he likes, and while this might normally be a mistake, it's not one those lists can exploit. That doesn't always matter, since a powerful competitive list is designed such that the opponent's tactics, good or bad, make as little difference as possible. But you can try to play in a reactive way, that shifts with your opponent's list and game. It's not easy, especially to design lists that can do that yet won't get blown away by power lists. But it can be done, and it will win you games. It won't win you any tournaments, but it can be done.

Were I you, I would play with and against the power lists. They're easy to find online and copy, and the strategies behind them are obvious. And it's important to know what you're likely to see. When I played competitively, I would practice with and against such lists, and that knowledge and understanding won me a lot of tournaments and games. But I personally think that learning to win with a reactive list and reactive style makes the game not only more enjoyable, but makes you a better player. That doesn't mean you only react to what your opponent does, of course - it means you have some strategies to take initiative, but you shift and adapt to what the opponent has and does, and you diversify your strategies such that you can always exploit weaknesses your opponent has and mistakes he makes. Nowadays, when I no longer have time to play tournaments, that's what I'm interested in doing - playing against a huge variety of lists, from optimised spammy lists to weaker ones, and taking them on with diverse, reactive-capable lists. I enjoy the games more, and they make me a better player. And I win most of the time, though I would never succeed in a tournament, because it is usually too hard to win by huge margins, especially against the optimised competitive lists. But it's what I enjoy. And in the end, if you're enjoying the game, that should be what counts. Everyone enjoys winning, naturally, but if changing the competitiveness of your gaming group sacrifices enjoyment, it's not worth it. Best of luck.

Relic_OMO wrote: I enjoy the games more, and they make me a better player. And I win most of the time, though I would never succeed in a tournament, because it is usually too hard to win by huge margins, especially against the optimised competitive lists. But it's what I enjoy. And in the end, if you're enjoying the game, that should be what counts. Everyone enjoys winning, naturally, but if changing the competitiveness of your gaming group sacrifices enjoyment, it's not worth it. Best of luck.

This stands out to me the most. I totally understand what you're saying and it is definitely something that is in the back of my mind. Despite my gut feeling of not pursuing 40k as a competitive activity, because through my personal experiences, when things become about the competition, they are no longer about the fun. Winning is awesome. Losing sucks. There is definitely a way to have my cake and eat it, and that would definitely be to keep playing for the fun, enjoy the game for what it is, and don't let it become purely about winning and losing. On the other hand, there is something to be said about having people say "oh he's back" or "remember how badly we lost to him last tournament?"

Perhaps I need to do a bit more thinking on this. As much as I really want to get more "competitive" and run through the tournament circuit, maybe the end result of that would be me hating the game. That result would suck. I love this game and have a lot invested in it (check my gallery, you can see my 40k tattoo). Maybe another game is more suited for a tournament circuit style of play?

Well to answer the list question.

My list is pretty static. But that is because I am still trying to learn how to effectively use this one list against all comers. I dont want to swap in a new list just yet.

MikeMcSomething wrote:You need:

Money to buy stuff

The ability to take criticism

The ability to play with people that are good enough to levy worthwhile criticism

The ability to do this frequently


Rinse wash repeat

I wasn't joking here. No need for people to chime in with entire essays worth of Sun Tzu musings about when to attack or whatever. It's simple - you have to be able to go to places to play alot of games, and you need to be able to learn from those games, and those games need to contain other good players so they can give you something to learn from in the first place. It's not rocket science.

Hahaha, dude, did you just quote yourself?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Reecius wrote:
And, above all else: cheat like crazy! Hahaha, just kidding. Luck does play a big part in this game though, and in a game where all else is equal or nearly equal (layer skill, list, etc.) luck is what will determine who wins and who loses. You have to be able to accept that to play competitive 40K and not let it bother you if you don't always win (which you won't).

Oh Reecius, you did it now!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352134.page

Ah man, I don't even bother with those luck vs. probability arguments anymore. The lack of math knowledge makes me depressed.

As far as skill vs. luck, it really boils down to results. The same people consistently win so, therefore, skill is more important than luck. Otherwise we would see totally random tournament results.

Oh, and I almost forgot: I make little battle reports to myself about every tournament and league game that I play with an army I'm trying to learn. Usually the next day I sit down and write out everything from memory, emphasizing what I did right and wrong and what I might do differently.

Making notes like this allows me to see trends and figure out consistent strengths and weaknesses of my army, and to see where I'm making the same mistakes over and over.

My gameplay took a huge leap when I started making personal battle reports.

After you're done being successfully competitive, it's time to be competitively successful. *strokes beard*

The old line of, "You shoot the assaulty things and assault the shooty things" is pretty much it: if you do this better than your opponent, you'll probably win.

It seems simple but there are a lot of factors that come into play: how well do you judge the shootiness / assaultiness of his units? Where are they placed? What is your main objective? Even if things are going well for you, they probably aren't going exactly *to plan*, so you have to be able to think on-the-fly.

Some armies are very point-and-click but again there are subtle nuances in using them. One thing that tends to separate skilled players from less skilled players is assaults: newer players tend to say, "meh, everybody gets their attack". Good players actually take the time to plan their assaults and position their models properly, because they know the rules for assaults, and how much can be gained or lost based on base to base contact.

As for things you should try to master, a very abbreviated and incomplete list would include,

1. Target prioritization and shooting order in the shooting phase. What units should you focus on destroying? What units should fire first at these units? There should be a clear order here designed to maximize your potential and set up assaults in the assault phase. For example: say you have a long range heavy weapons unit and a short range assault unit next to an enemy transport with infantry inside, and your goal is to crack the transport and assault the guys inside. The best way to do this, according to target prioritization, is to fire with your long range heavy weapons unit first, because if you fail to destroy it with the assault troops' shooting, you won't be able to assault the passengers.

2. Properly position your assaults. If you want to keep an IC out of combat, or ensure that he gets into combat, make sure you position him properly. Keep in mind enemy instant-death causing weapons and keep them away from your ICs if you have a choice.

3. Know the advantages of positioning a vehicle. Is it better to fire one 3 lascannons at front AV14, or 1 lascannon at side armor 11? In regards to your own tanks, most players don't know that if the firer can only see a facing of the tank which they do not occupy (ie: the firing model is in the front arc but can only see the side facing), the tank receives a 3+ coversave. Try to position your tanks for these angular shots. Also keep in mind squadron shenanigans (2 squads of 2 can be staggered to lend each other coversaves by 50% obscurity).

4. Deployment. How do you deploy against a gunline? A deep striking army? In different mission types? Can your opponent effect your deployment (ie: Callidus assassins, OOtF, etc.)?

5. Recognizing the main strengths of other armies and their deathstars, and the weaknesses. For 2x Lash 9x Oblits Chaos, mechanization and psychic defense are both hard counters. Mech Vets are vulnerable to any army aimed toward killing AV12. Thunderwolf Cav Deathstars are vulnerable to Psyker Battlesquads and Fear the Darkness Librarians.

6. Objectives. 2/3 of games include objectives. Do you have enough troops units to take and hold these objectives? What kind of insurance do you have against last-turn tank shocks?

7. Gauging distances. The real game is measured in millimeters. Range of most psychic hoods = 24". Range of many psychic powers = 24". Can you keep your psyker *just* out of range of the Librarian while still targeting his squad? Very important to be able to do this.


These are just some of the things you should consider, competitive or non-competitive.

I'm myself working on being a tournament caliber player, and here's what I've identified as important and why I have done so:

1) Confidence - If you go in expecting to lose, you will lose. End of story. If you go in expecting to win, not only will you do better, but your opponent may do worse.

2) Know the Rules - This way you don't do something silly like charge an MC with your biker warboss *coughcough*.

3) Know Your Opponent - Not meaning the person, but know his codex. Understanding what your opponent can do is important, and critical to the next several points.

4) Empathy - I don't mean feel bad when your opponent feels bad. I mean, be able to put yourselves in their shoes and see what they can do to counter your moves and how you can compensate for that.

5) Target Priority - Know what to focus on in your enemy's army. Taken down the combination of biggest and most vulnerable threats first.

6) Know Your List - If you're having to look up rules or statlines, then you're most likely not using your army in the best way possible.

7) Evaluate Your Opponent's List - Imagine what he can do to counter your threats and how you can deal with those.

8) Practice - Noone starts out awesome or gets good in a single game. Ask your friends to bring the most beat face list they can and allow them to proxy if needed. Let them know you're trying to be a top tier player.

9) Understand Mathhammer - It's important to know not only what to shoot at, but about how much firepower you should have to use to take it down. It's also important to be able to compenstate for "bad luck". For example, if I expect to need two units worth of fire to achieve an objective, I will plan on using three units worth of fire and adjust my plans depending on how the shooting works out.

10) Understand Your Objectives - I don't mean as in what objectives you need troops to be on. I mean, know what you need to accomplish that turn and on following turns.

For example, if I am playing against Mech IG and I win the roll to go first, my Turn 1 objective is NOT to wreck all his vehicles. It's to prevent his most threatening targets from being able to shoot at me during his shooting phase. Once I score a shaken, stunned, etc, it's time to stop shooting that vehicle and focus on another.

11) Have Fun - If you get burned out, you won't ever make it to being a top tier player.

12) Control the Flow of Battle - Make your opponent react to you and not vice versa. When all you do is react to him, you're ceding control of the game.

I again want to thank everyone for their input so far. Tonight, I'm taking my first step into the realm of "competition". I've called out one of our better players in an 1850 game, half to try out an 1850 list I have for a tournament, and half to see if a change in attitude and a competitive list will be able to stand up to what he's got.

He's a bug player, uses lots of big beasties and lots of Genestealers. My list is a double Land Raider list with some tacticals having Laserbacks. I'll post my list once I make the final adjustments and I plan on keeping notes of what happens.

Schnitzel wrote:I again want to thank everyone for their input so far. Tonight, I'm taking my first step into the realm of "competition". I've called out one of our better players in an 1850 game, half to try out an 1850 list I have for a tournament, and half to see if a change in attitude and a competitive list will be able to stand up to what he's got.

He's a bug player, uses lots of big beasties and lots of Genestealers. My list is a double Land Raider list with some tacticals having Laserbacks. I'll post my list once I make the final adjustments and I plan on keeping notes of what happens.

BTW, not accusing you of doing this at all, but one thing that separates great players from the rest is their ability to make and play armies to handle all-comers (tailoring to the meta, rather than a specific opponent is different). So as long as your list is what you normally use, you're off to a great start.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Schnitzel wrote:I again want to thank everyone for their input so far. Tonight, I'm taking my first step into the realm of "competition". I've called out one of our better players in an 1850 game, half to try out an 1850 list I have for a tournament, and half to see if a change in attitude and a competitive list will be able to stand up to what he's got.

He's a bug player, uses lots of big beasties and lots of Genestealers. My list is a double Land Raider list with some tacticals having Laserbacks. I'll post my list once I make the final adjustments and I plan on keeping notes of what happens.

BTW, not accusing you of doing this at all, but one thing that separates great players from the rest is their ability to make and play armies to handle all-comers (tailoring to the meta, rather than a specific opponent is different). So as long as your list is what you normally use, you're off to a great start.

I always build a list to face all comers. I've tailored to an opponent once or twice, and that was when we were planning to have a big, scenario styled game. So while I know that tonight I'm going to be facing Tyranids, I am by no way taking more Flamers than I normally would. Hell, my Termies have chainfists on them despite the lack of armor. That's just how I run them.

But I thank you for bringing that up, as that is an important thing to consider.

I would also recommend posting your list in the Army List section if not done along with some general strategies. This will help people critique your list and focus on the current meta.

If your opponent doesn't mind, you could always take photos and post a battle report to get more input from the Dakkaites as well. We love nothing so much as the chance to critique!

Heffling wrote:I would also recommend posting your list in the Army List section if not done along with some general strategies. This will help people critique your list and focus on the current meta.

If your opponent doesn't mind, you could always take photos and post a battle report to get more input from the Dakkaites as well. We love nothing so much as the chance to critique!

I'm definitely going to throw my list in the List section. But here's what I'm planning on running:

HQ:
Belial
-apothecary
-banner

Troop:
Terms
TH/SS
Sarge
Chainfist
TLC
Assault Cannon

Terms
TH/SS/banner bearer
TH/SS
Sarge
Heavy Flamer/apothecary
TLC

Tacticals @ 10
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Laserback

Tacticals @ 10
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Laserback

Fast:
Ravenwing Support Squad w/2 speeders
Missile Launcher
Missile Launcher

Heavy:
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Crusader

I'm going to combat squad the two tacticals, half of the squad with a Flamer and the Sarge and the other half hanging back with the Razorback slinging missiles. If I can think of a place I can cut 50 points to add in two power fists, I will. The terminators are going to be riding around in the Crusaders, Belial is going to be with the heavy flamer squad. They're going to be my line breakers/death star. The other squad is there to capitalize on my opponent focusing on the squad with the HQ in it. My Speeders are going to be zipping around, slinging missiles, and annoying whatever they shoot at.

Over all, I have eight S8+ shots I can take a turn. Knowing that six of that eight can template out is going to be great for crowd control. Turns one and two are mainly going to be trying to knock out the big bugs.

Let me know what you all think.

All right, so here's a summarized turn by turn of our game.

Game type: Seize ground, spearhead, 5 objectives.

His list (to the best of my memory)
Swarmlord with one guard

Two Tyrannofexes

Three squads of Genestealers (two @ 10, one has a Brood Lord, one at 8), held in reserve to outflank.

Three zoeys in a spod

Two shooty guards

Death Leaper

Trygon

We set up objectives a bit all over the board, I've got three that are very close to me.

Turn one:
I combat squadded my Tacticals, Flamers+Sarge in the Razorbacks, Missile Launchers hanging back. I move my two Razorbacks forward, position them so I have LOS on his big beasties yet am still within objective holding range. I sweep one Land Raider to my right flank (holding Belial and the Assault Cannon Squad) then the other Land Raider advances towards the last objective that was closest to me. I move my speeders in position to where I can fire at his bugs. Now, here is where I made my mistake that cost me the game: I opened fire on a Tyrannofex with the intention of preserving my Land Raiders. Everything that was worth shooting (Speeders, LasCannons, Missile Launchers, Assault Cannons) was fired at said Tyrannofex. I wiff quite a bit, yet still hit 3 wounds on it. What mistake did I make? Not targeting the Swarm Lord, more on this later.

His turn one, he gimps his big, slow bugs towards me. Shakes a Raider and misses his other shooting attacks.

Turn two:
I have three objectives, he has none. I dig in, reposition my tanks a bit, advance my Land Raiders more towards his deployment zone, looking to psyche out his big bugs. I open fire again (everyone who shot last time) at the hurting Tyrannofex. I miss with everything but one LasCannon. D'oh!

His turn: His Swarm Lord adjusts his the reserve rolls... no biggie. Except that all three squads of Genestealers, zoeys, and Death Leaper all come in on this turn. One squad of Stealers walks into some cover, another walks towards an objective, and the third walks onto an objective in cover. His zoeys drop down near a Land Raider. Death Leaper goes towards a Missile Launcher combat squad. He shakes a Raider, pops a Speeder, Immobilizes a Raider, and stuns a Razorback. I like to think I got off easy.

Turn three:
I dump out a Tactical combat squad with a flamer out of their Razorback. I walk up to a set of Genestealers in cover. Things are looking good. (Remember this moment.) I position my moveable tanks the best I can to make the most of my shooting. I'm still holding three objectives to his two. I fire my flamer on his Genestealers in cover. Easy kills, amirite? Not so much... I got 6 of the 10 under my template. I only killed 2. Crap. Bolters! I fire all my bolters at him left in the squad. 4 guys shoot, 1 hits. None wound. *point, this would have had a major impact on the outcome of the game, however, this is where knowing mathhammer kicks in. That and the dice gods being dicks :p* I then have another squad fire on Death Leaper. Even with his cover save, he's made short work of. I open fire on another squad of Stealers in cover, except they're on an objective. This is the squad of 8. I kill them all with my immobile Crusader. Awesome. Next, I need to wrap up this Tyrannofex, so I unload on it with my other Crusader. I took him out.

His turn: His Genestealers that didn't get burned alive move into assault position. His zoeys advance towards a Land Raider. He camps an objective with his Genestealers. His Trygon comes in right behind a Razorback! This is a good turn of shooting for him. He takes out both Razorbacks (Trygon and shooty guard) and blows up my not hurt Raider. That's cool though. The guys inside have two Thunder Hammers and a Heavy Flamer (TLC and a Power Sword as well). His Genestealers that were in position assaulted my combat squad. Interestingly enough, two of 5 died, and they took out two Stealers. Pretty solid I'd say. We stay locked in combat.

Turn four:
I position my last speeder to fire on his zoeys. I disembark my remaining termies and move them towards the objective that has a single Genestealer left on it. Theyre about 13 inches or so away from the Swarmlord at this point. The other termie squad near the shooty guards is about 8 inches from the Swarmlord. There isn't much I can do in shooting this round. Zoeys made their armor save against the Speeder, and the Swarmlord made his armor save against a Missile Launcher. I split Belial off from his squad, hoping to bait the Swarmlord and allow my termies time to get to the objective, then ride out turn five with more objectives and pray the game ends. I run the termies onto the objective and take out the last Genestealer there with some shooting. A bolter I think. I then have my termies with the flamer assault the shooty guard and make wicked short work of them.

His turn: Swarmlord and Tyrannofex move towards the flamer squad. Two storm shields should be okay for the onslaught forthcoming... So, I've got a combat squad holding an objective, termies holding an objective, and a squad contesting an objective because some Genestealers were holding them in close combat. The termies get assaulted, take out the Tyrannofex and put a couple wounds on the Swarm Lord. Two I think. They then get chewed up to no retreat saves. Laaaame. Swarm Lord consolidates towards Belial. Trygon assaults a combat squad holding an objective. Genestealer squad chews up a combat squad and consolidates towards my last combat squad.

Turn five:
I dig my termies in on the objective. I advance Belial towards the Swarm Lord, really hoping for the speed bump to work long enough. I have my last combat squad that can shoot unload on the stealers. I frag missile them, two die. I double tap the rest of the bolters and flat out whiff. Awesome. Assault phase comes. Here's another mistake I made that I learned from- I had Belial assault the Swarm Lord. The Swarm Lord made two wounds on him. I roll my Invul. I made them both! Awesome right? Well, the Swarm Lord make you have to re-roll them (something I knew, but went for it anyway). This is where he died. Instant death from his blasted swords. Something I knew, but was too focused on other things to remember. Belial is out. The tacticals in CC with the Trygon are eaten. I now hold one objective, he holds one, and we are contesting two.

His turn: He moves onto my last bit of tacticals and brings his Swarm Lord up to my termies in cover. He chews up my tacticals. I saw that coming. His Swarm Lord is hitting at I1, that's solid, we'll go simultaneous. Lightning claws dont do dick, power sword doesn't do dick. I've got a power fist and a thunder hammer left. I get two hits with the power fist and nothing with the thunder hammer. His Swarm Lord hits three wounds and takes out two termies. I lose another to no retreat. He now has two objectives to my none. We roll to continue, and the game ends.

Over all, way better than I expected. I see where I went wrong and noticed it on turn four. If the Swarm Lord went down, the end game melee would have been very different. Dice rolling kind of screwed me. Otherwise, I had a blast yet maintained my competitive mind set. This was an important game to me because this is a) the best I've done against new bugs, b) the first time I've used my Dark Angels since I shelved them out of frustration in September and c) was my first "competitive" spirit game that was still fun, well fought, and I can see where mistakes were made.

Sorry if my battle report sucks, it's my first write up of one. But I hope it presents itself in a semi-clear manner.

Schnitzel wrote:All right, so here's a summarized turn by turn of our game.

Game type: Seize ground, spearhead, 5 objectives.

His list (to the best of my memory)
Swarmlord with one guard

Two Tyrannofexes

Three squads of Genestealers (two @ 10, one has a Brood Lord, one at 8), held in reserve to outflank.

Three zoeys in a spod

Two shooty guards

Death Leaper

Trygon

We set up objectives a bit all over the board, I've got three that are very close to me.

Turn one:
I combat squadded my Tacticals, Flamers+Sarge in the Razorbacks, Missile Launchers hanging back. I move my two Razorbacks forward, position them so I have LOS on his big beasties yet am still within objective holding range. I sweep one Land Raider to my right flank (holding Belial and the Assault Cannon Squad) then the other Land Raider advances towards the last objective that was closest to me. I move my speeders in position to where I can fire at his bugs. Now, here is where I made my mistake that cost me the game: I opened fire on a Tyrannofex with the intention of preserving my Land Raiders. Everything that was worth shooting (Speeders, LasCannons, Missile Launchers, Assault Cannons) was fired at said Tyrannofex. I wiff quite a bit, yet still hit 3 wounds on it. What mistake did I make? Not targeting the Swarm Lord, more on this later.

His turn one, he gimps his big, slow bugs towards me. Shakes a Raider and misses his other shooting attacks.

Turn two:
I have three objectives, he has none. I dig in, reposition my tanks a bit, advance my Land Raiders more towards his deployment zone, looking to psyche out his big bugs. I open fire again (everyone who shot last time) at the hurting Tyrannofex. I miss with everything but one LasCannon. D'oh!

His turn: His Swarm Lord adjusts his the reserve rolls... no biggie. Except that all three squads of Genestealers, zoeys, and Death Leaper all come in on this turn. One squad of Stealers walks into some cover, another walks towards an objective, and the third walks onto an objective in cover. His zoeys drop down near a Land Raider. Death Leaper goes towards a Missile Launcher combat squad. He shakes a Raider, pops a Speeder, Immobilizes a Raider, and stuns a Razorback. I like to think I got off easy.

Turn three:
I dump out a Tactical combat squad with a flamer out of their Razorback. I walk up to a set of Genestealers in cover. Things are looking good. (Remember this moment.) I position my moveable tanks the best I can to make the most of my shooting. I'm still holding three objectives to his two. I fire my flamer on his Genestealers in cover. Easy kills, amirite? Not so much... I got 6 of the 10 under my template. I only killed 2. Crap. Bolters! I fire all my bolters at him left in the squad. 4 guys shoot, 1 hits. None wound. *point, this would have had a major impact on the outcome of the game, however, this is where knowing mathhammer kicks in. That and the dice gods being dicks :p* I then have another squad fire on Death Leaper. Even with his cover save, he's made short work of. I open fire on another squad of Stealers in cover, except they're on an objective. This is the squad of 8. I kill them all with my immobile Crusader. Awesome. Next, I need to wrap up this Tyrannofex, so I unload on it with my other Crusader. I took him out.

His turn: His Genestealers that didn't get burned alive move into assault position. His zoeys advance towards a Land Raider. He camps an objective with his Genestealers. His Trygon comes in right behind a Razorback! This is a good turn of shooting for him. He takes out both Razorbacks (Trygon and shooty guard) and blows up my not hurt Raider. That's cool though. The guys inside have two Thunder Hammers and a Heavy Flamer (TLC and a Power Sword as well). His Genestealers that were in position assaulted my combat squad. Interestingly enough, two of 5 died, and they took out two Stealers. Pretty solid I'd say. We stay locked in combat.

Turn four:
I position my last speeder to fire on his zoeys. I disembark my remaining termies and move them towards the objective that has a single Genestealer left on it. Theyre about 13 inches or so away from the Swarmlord at this point. The other termie squad near the shooty guards is about 8 inches from the Swarmlord. There isn't much I can do in shooting this round. Zoeys made their armor save against the Speeder, and the Swarmlord made his armor save against a Missile Launcher. I split Belial off from his squad, hoping to bait the Swarmlord and allow my termies time to get to the objective, then ride out turn five with more objectives and pray the game ends. I run the termies onto the objective and take out the last Genestealer there with some shooting. A bolter I think. I then have my termies with the flamer assault the shooty guard and make wicked short work of them.

His turn: Swarmlord and Tyrannofex move towards the flamer squad. Two storm shields should be okay for the onslaught forthcoming... So, I've got a combat squad holding an objective, termies holding an objective, and a squad contesting an objective because some Genestealers were holding them in close combat. The termies get assaulted, take out the Tyrannofex and put a couple wounds on the Swarm Lord. Two I think. They then get chewed up to no retreat saves. Laaaame. Swarm Lord consolidates towards Belial. Trygon assaults a combat squad holding an objective. Genestealer squad chews up a combat squad and consolidates towards my last combat squad.

Turn five:
I dig my termies in on the objective. I advance Belial towards the Swarm Lord, really hoping for the speed bump to work long enough. I have my last combat squad that can shoot unload on the stealers. I frag missile them, two die. I double tap the rest of the bolters and flat out whiff. Awesome. Assault phase comes. Here's another mistake I made that I learned from- I had Belial assault the Swarm Lord. The Swarm Lord made two wounds on him. I roll my Invul. I made them both! Awesome right? Well, the Swarm Lord make you have to re-roll them (something I knew, but went for it anyway). This is where he died. Instant death from his blasted swords. Something I knew, but was too focused on other things to remember. Belial is out. The tacticals in CC with the Trygon are eaten. I now hold one objective, he holds one, and we are contesting two.

His turn: He moves onto my last bit of tacticals and brings his Swarm Lord up to my termies in cover. He chews up my tacticals. I saw that coming. His Swarm Lord is hitting at I1, that's solid, we'll go simultaneous. Lightning claws dont do dick, power sword doesn't do dick. I've got a power fist and a thunder hammer left. I get two hits with the power fist and nothing with the thunder hammer. His Swarm Lord hits three wounds and takes out two termies. I lose another to no retreat. He now has two objectives to my none. We roll to continue, and the game ends.

Over all, way better than I expected. I see where I went wrong and noticed it on turn four. If the Swarm Lord went down, the end game melee would have been very different. Dice rolling kind of screwed me. Otherwise, I had a blast yet maintained my competitive mind set. This was an important game to me because this is a) the best I've done against new bugs, b) the first time I've used my Dark Angels since I shelved them out of frustration in September and c) was my first "competitive" spirit game that was still fun, well fought, and I can see where mistakes were made.

Sorry if my battle report sucks, it's my first write up of one. But I hope it presents itself in a semi-clear manner.

Tough loss, the Swarmlord is 400 points for reason though.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it is intended to help you in your quest to become competitive.

Schnitzel wrote:...I see where I went wrong and noticed it on turn four. If the Swarm Lord went down, the end game melee would have been very different. Dice rolling kind of screwed me...

Dice rolling is never where you go wrong. The key to improving is figuring out what thing that you can control that you could have done differently to win the game. Dice rolling is not something you can control.

Could you have avoided that last turn melee, knowing that the Swarmlord had not gone down, and that he was likely to beat you as a result? Could you have done anything differently to have gotten yourself more opportunities to shoot him to death? See where I'm going with this?

It's not bad to lose games, but it is bad to lose games and chalk them up to not rolling well enough. That won't help you improve, all it will do is give you an excuse for why you didn't.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Schnitzel wrote:

daedalus wrote:Well, I was going to link to dash's awesome thread at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314983.page, but then I found that it's edited out. :(

I actually referenced that in the OP. It was what made me make this thread to be honest

Actually, that's a broken link now. :( To a different (and now defunct) thread.

In it, I noted that I was ranked the #1 40k player in the world (a title I held only briefly as I haven't been to a Grand Tournament since August of last year). Then I outlined basically what it takes to become a professional 40k player. UNforunately the blog I wrote it for is defunct, which broke the link to the post I made about it.

It was a satire, but it would have been funny reading for you. Early start at 11:30 AM, roll out of bed and start warming up before starting flash card exercises (you know the ones that all competitive players do - flashing a 40k unit and then naming the best way to kill it with every codex). Flash cards for an hour, internet research for new META, lunch....much discussion about how to keep your METAgame above everyone else's METAgame, how META differs in different areas and what happens when META clashes, and how my META was basically so far ahead of everyone elses's META that I was actually about to lap them.

Ah, was fun to write, fun to read, but is no more. I try keeping Dakka entertained with other stuff - like the link you referenced in your OP.
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On topic: There's a link in my bio about Tournament Survival and Success. Please read it. A *lot* of the stuff in there relates to being competitive. What questions to ask opponents, how to prioritize targets, that sort of thing. Short of giving you a lengthy explanation, I'm just going to tell you that competitive ability is a combination of intelligence and knowledge.

Not trying to insult you or anything, but you seem more full of yourself than anyone I've ever seen in my life. Ever.

UberhAxTHC wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:*snip*In it, I noted that I was ranked the #1 40k player in the world (a title I held only briefly as I haven't been to a Grand Tournament since August of last year). Then I outlined basically what it takes to become a professional 40k player. Unforunately the blog I wrote it for is defunct, which broke the link to the post I made about it. *snip*

Not trying to insult you or anything, but you seem more full of yourself than anyone I've ever seen in my life. Ever.

Dash is full of himself, incredibly so, but with VERY good reason. He can be arrogant about it but most of the time its in good humour (see the "Space Wolves SUCK!" thread in his sig ), and tbh the advice he gives is more valuable than than almost anything else you can find anywhere.


@OP - as Redbeard said, don't blame it on the dice, its almost impossible to loose a game where you do everything right but roll less than statistically. If I was you I'd ask the guy you just lost to for a rematch, same lists and everything and see how it goes now that you've talked the game over. See if you've learnt from your mistakes.

1. Know yourself. Find a codex and army build that fits your style. Firepower/counterattack. All-out assault. Whatever. If you play an army that doesn't fit your style you will invariably make a mistake or try to do something that "feels" right to you but your army list or codex simply is hard pressed to achieve.

2. Know your opponents codex. This is intuitively knowing what your opponent's strengths are and what things are ultimate death for you in HTH or if you don't lock up in HTH. Ignorance is bliss but it is also the kiss of death.

3. Know your opponent. If you know the style that your opponent is likely to follow you have half the battle won.

4. Attitude is victory. Never be flustered by a bad turn of dice luck. Half of winning is having your opponent make a mistake. It is less likely to make a mistake if you are comfortable and not under stress. A friend of mine teaching his son to play a tyrannid hoard - spent time teaching him to remove the hoard of casualties with disdain just to intimidate his opponent!

I'm going to disagree with DAaddict on one of the ideas presented a couple of times here and say that I don't think confidence/attitude is very important to winning at all (and the science actually even says that forced positive thinking is detrimental).

In fact, I find that if I'm overly optimistic, I tend to take unnecessary risks in the hopes that the dice will pay off for me (which they usually don't).

I mean, being totally negative in a way that you disengage from the game and stop trying to win is just as bad, and getting emotional about losing units or having setbacks is also not going to help you make better decisions. I will admit that.

But I don't think a confidence actually contributes anything to my performance personally. The attitude that works best for me is realistic, pragmatic, and rational.

@Flavius

Overconfidence=Bad
Confidence=Good

I have a tendency to be confident when I go into a game. I think this heavily influences how I play and perform. However part of that confidence is that I know I'm not to shabby at playing with little toy soldiers. You can be confident but temper that properly w/reality It's a small distinction but one I think needs to be said.

Hulksmash wrote:@Flavius

Overconfidence=Bad
Confidence=Good

I have a tendency to be confident when I go into a game. I think this heavily influences how I play and perform. However part of that confidence is that I know I'm not to shabby at playing with little toy soldiers. You can be confident but temper that properly w/reality It's a small distinction but one I think needs to be said.

Agree. This goes with everything--not just playing competitively. Confidence is having a realistic view of what you can and can do, and you can confidently admit to yourself your limitations. Overconfidence is something that will utterly destroy you.

It's the difference between knowing that you are level 50 (therefore you have a fair amount of chance beating level 30 characters) and being a level 10 character that thinks he/she is level 99 (and ends up attacking higher leveled characters which will own him/her). Confidence is knowing there's sizzle on your steak. Overconfidence is saying there is sizzle on your steak, but you're just all sizzle and no steak.

Sorry to let this drop and not reply for a bit. I'm currently in between playing games (the lull between opponents if you will), but I'm still making some tweaks to the army list I posted. I hope to have it worked out and ready to roll for a tournament on the 26th.

As a fun little add-on, I've taken to applying these new "competitive changes" to WarmaHordes as well. I'm noticing a huge difference in my playstyle, confidence, and ability to lay down the hammer while still having fun, which, in my case was my biggest concern. I was very VERY worried that by upping my competitive attitude, I'd drop the fun factor way down, both for me and my opponents. All I've noticed though, is that the fun has only increased for both myself and my oppoents.

I see this as a good change. Whether or not I go super serious with the tournament circuit in my area this summer, I at least know that I've made positive changes that increase the over-all fun factor of wargaming.

To the OP... don't change what you're doing. Having been both a brutally competitive player as well as a casual one, I've found casual is by far the best way to go.

I've found that many players who win often do so by a combination of things. Strategic thinking is definitely at the top of the list, but not far below this is what I like to call "brow beating" your opponent.

I have found, in almost 30 years of playing Warhammer games, that good players are often aggressively argumentative people who win, not only by out playing their opponents, but by out arguing them. They're manipulative people who find loopholes in the rules and "tricks" that many straight forward thinking people don't take into consideration. They're often not nice, nor more polite than they have to be while they play. This got a lot better when things like sportsmanship entered competitive play, but even then these kinds of people strategize around the best way to be just polite enough to max their soft scores.

These players rarely take soft armies like Tau to tournaments and far more frequently take the Salamander Melta type lists. They play every angle to win a game, and in the end, become thoroughly un-enjoyable to play against unless you too are one of these alpha male strategos.

Part of the problem is that if you put this much effort into winning, then it becomes more disappointing when you lose. If you just play casually and focus more on the fun of actually playing the game and less on whether or not you win or lose, then you will probably enjoy 40k more in the end.

This is just my two cents as I am on the other side of the coin. I long for the days when I can bring an army down to my local gaming shop and just have fun with it as opposed to worry about winning or losing. I get enough of that in real life, and would like my hobbies to be devoid of the bloodthirsty competition that makes life so grim in our modern world.

Hulksmash wrote:@Flavius

Overconfidence=Bad
Confidence=Good

I have a tendency to be confident when I go into a game. I think this heavily influences how I play and perform. However part of that confidence is that I know I'm not to shabby at playing with little toy soldiers. You can be confident but temper that properly w/reality It's a small distinction but one I think needs to be said.

Hulksmash is the only person I actually fear across the tabletop from me. =p