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Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.

Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.

I don't know. I think penal armies would consist of Arbite squads mixed with penal squads with arbites as sergeants controlling the collars and of course the human bombs.

(1) Do Adeptus Arbites belong in the Sisters Book? Distinguish this from whether you want them in the book.
I want them in the book, and think they do belong there. They're not just cops, they're often required to fight a defensive war against any cult that tries to take control of a planet, until reinforcements arrive. Having them support the Sisters' war against Heresy is a good enough excuse to allow point 2:

(2) Why/why not, according to fluff/marketing reasons?
I'd love to see both a plastic Arbite kit and a plastic Frateris Militia kit (that look like Imperial citizens, not WHFB rejects). They wouldn't just sell to Sisters players - they'd be great to add character to Cityfight terrain, represent Necromunda gangs or just as assorted victims for factions like the Dark Eldar.

(3) Why/why not, according to rules reasons?
I'd make them a Fast Attack or Elites choice with suppression shields and either shotguns or shock mauls.

(4) If you do think they belong, should there be an all-Arbites army option?
Not really. A Judge, Arbite Patrols and Repressors would be good, but inventing new units to justify an expanded presence isn't worth the cost, IMO.

I think there's a fair argument to put them in the same book. Their roles as near-incorruptible bastions of Imperial faith (SoB's) and hegemony (Arbites) have enough overlap to justify the possibility of them having a significant presence in an 'everybody but us are dead or turncoats' SoB force facing up against the CSM/Tyranid/etc army that's coming to crush the last remnants of defence on a cult-owned world.

Furthermore, I think there's a fair argument to make it possible to field an all-Arbites force, with the condition that it be nothing more than fanservice for hardcore fans who want to pit it against a poorly-equipped Conscript-heavy IG force representing a cult, and not something that will stand a chance against a well-supplied military force with plenty of heavy hardware.

Manchu wrote:(1) Do Adeptus Arbites belong in the Sisters Book? Distinguish this from whether you want them in the book.

(2) Why/why not, according to fluff/marketing reasons?

(3) Why/why not, according to rules reasons?

(4) If you do think they belong, should there be an all-Arbites army option?

1: As part of the Ecclesiarchal forces in the book, sure why not.

2: The Ecclesiarchy is already made up of non-military units, and certainly the Arbites would participate in this rather than hiding.

3: They'd make a nice elites or fast attack choice for an ecclesiarchy themed army depending on their rules.

4: No, but they should be able to have an all-ecclesiarchy army even if the focus is on Sisters. At least one unit per FoC slot.

As a side note:

(at least, relative to there having been no question whatsoever about this pre-Codex: Grey Knights)

There was always this question, given that they said repeatedly that they'd focus on Sisters of Battle. The assumption was that they wouldn't disclude them sure, but there was still always a question fo whether or not they would.

@Melissia: I'm not sure why you are lumping Arbites with the Ecclesiarchy. As to the Inquisition question, I was referring to seeing Inqs from all ordos in the GK book -- I didn't see anyone predict that one. I also can't tell what you mean by "disclude." My perception was that these would be GK and SoB books rather than "Deamonhunters" and "Witch Hunters," not that either or both books would include every ordo or that one would possibly include none. That's the question as it stands, IMO. Now, one implication of this and the rumor mill is that the Sisters book must have more than Sisters (even though this is not really a lesson from the GK book). The assumption has been Ecclesiarchy but it could -- because of their thematic link as first line planetary defenders -- include Arbites. Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally. If Arbites make it into any dex in the next 5 years, it will be a new Sisters book: this is because of their job keeping the Imperium in line -- which is the same in general scope as the Sisters' mission -- not because of some Ecclesiarchical link.


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lindsay40k wrote:Furthermore, I think there's a fair argument to make it possible to field an all-Arbites force, with the condition that it be nothing more than fanservice for hardcore fans who want to pit it against a poorly-equipped Conscript-heavy IG force representing a cult, and not something that will stand a chance against a well-supplied military force with plenty of heavy hardware.

This harkens back to Codex: Witch Hunters and, helas, GW seems to have turned away from such things.

Where is this "first line planetary defenders" thing coming from for Sisters?

They're the "first line planetary defenders"...for Ecclesiarchal Shrineworlds.

Sisters are not on every single planet. They're on important ones with a big Ecclesiarchal presence and worlds devoted entirely to the Ecclesiarchy.

Arbites, however, are on every single world.

As I understand it, there are more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrine Worlds. Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium. The point is that both Guard and Astartes are forces that you call in. Arbites and Sororitas are generally "already there, thanks" forces.

Manchu wrote:As I understand it, there are more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrine Worlds.

Not sure where this "more orders of Sisters than important Imperial Shrineworlds" is coming from. There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?
There's entire sectors filled with more Shrineworlds than Major Orders.

Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.

And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.
For that matter, if we go off IA5: A high-ranking, charismatic individual such as the guy who brought about the whole secession of Vraks (which had a Shrine renowned throughout the sector as well)?
He merited a 'bodyguard' squad. Not an entire Order.

The point is that both Guard and Astartes are forces that you call in. Arbites and Sororitas are generally "already there, thanks" forces.

The PDF and Arbites are the "already on it, thanks guys" forces.

Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.



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I mean when it comes down to it:

I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.

Kanluwen wrote:There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?

No, that's incorrect (the second part). You may want to check out Blood of Martyrs.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.

And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.

Judging by Calixis, there are several cardinals in each sector. That's hardly a one-to-one correspondence with Shrineworlds.

Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.

It seems like whenever Sisters come up, they are the ones who are already present and getting slaughtered. I'm not saying that I care for this "damsels in distress" syndrome but they are in fact located on planets -- the IG and Astartes are organizationally wandering from place to place

I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.

I don't think it's likely. I'd be very happy if it was the case, however. My trouble is envisioning their role vis-a-vis the FOC and their rules.

Manchu wrote:Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally.

I know this. But my point was more that the stats of the arbites mesh well with that of the ecclesiarchy as elite units, and the ecclesiarchy convincing arbites to join in (or rather, assisting the arbites, whom probably were already fighting) is hardly going against the lore of the game.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's supposed to be what, 6 Major Orders and a hundred or so(at best) Minor Orders?

No, that's incorrect (the second part). You may want to check out Blood of Martyrs.

Pass. No interest in reading about Sisters. They're my least favorite part of the background, frankly. Well...next to the Ecclesiarchy in general. Always ruining the Inquisition and Guard's deployment orders.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Sisters seem to go around wherever there are high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries -- and that could be on just about every world in the Imperium.

And high-ranking Ecclesiarchical dignitaries mainly go to Shrineworlds.

Judging by Calixis, there are several cardinals in each sector. That's hardly a one-to-one correspondence with Shrineworlds.

"Mainly go to Shrineworlds" doesn't mean that 'every Shrineworld has one'.

It means that they're going to make visiting Shrineworlds a priority.

Sororitas have to be called in for the most part, same as Guard and Astartes.

It seems like whenever Sisters come up, they are the ones who are already present and getting slaughtered. I'm not saying that I care for this "damsels in distress" syndrome but they are in fact located on planets -- the IG and Astartes are organizationally wandering from place to place

The Guard aren't wandering. They're going from warzone to warzone.
Same with the Astartes.

It might sound silly, but I think there's been some mistaken information about Sisters that's been going into these books with Sisters. Wouldn't be the first time though.

I guess if they're going to cram them in, they're going to cram them in. Just like they did with the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors and Hereticus Inquisitors in the Grey Knights book.

I don't think it's likely. I'd be very happy if it was the case, however. My trouble is envisioning their role vis-a-vis the FOC and their rules.

Their role in a Sisters book would be the same role as any other Sisters unit, just in Carapace Armor. A short-ranged counterpunch unit.

I mean when it comes down to it. Arbites with Riot Shields is a silly thing on the tabletop.
Arbites as pathfinders and scouts, clad in Carapace Armor and using their specialist shotgun ammunition, boltguns, heavy stubbers with suspensor braces, etc leading in the forces coming to crush insurrection?
Far, far cooler and more representative of their goal. And it works far better in that role, highlighting the badassery of the Arbites if you put them in with the Guard.
With Sisters--they're overshadowed by the power armored nuns.

As things stand, however, I think the best counts-as option for building an Arbites army is IG vets. And that's basically what you're describing, right? I'm hoping for something more distinct but am having trouble envisioning it, I guess because (1) we don't know a lot about the Arbites organizationally except that they are a 'small army'-strength presence on almost every Imperial world (that alone is enough for a dex by some estimates but there's no Codex: Planetary Defense Forces, either) and (2) we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex. The inclusion of all-ordos Inqs in C:GK was a real curve ball.

Manchu wrote:As things stand, however, I think the best counts-as option for building an Arbites army is IG vets. And that's basically what you're describing, right?

See, I'm describing more an Arbites unit being part of the IG. A unique unit that grants unique abilities to Guard units within range. I'd do the same thing with "PDF Survivors" though.

I'm hoping for something more distinct but am having trouble envisioning it, I guess because (1) we don't know a lot about the Arbites organizationally except that they are a 'small army'-strength presence on almost every Imperial world (that alone is enough for a dex by some estimates but there's no Codex: Planetary Defense Forces, either)

Codex: Planetary Defense Forces--where every battle has to take place on the same planet, and you have to wait to be slaughtered!
Seriously. The PDF is equipped pretty well in many cases...but it's to deal with threats coming from within the planet, not without. The Guard are supposed to handle those.

(2) we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex. The inclusion of all-ordos Inqs in C:GK was a real curve ball.

And a mistake. There was no reason for all the Ordos(ESPECIALLY the special characters for all 3) to be included, unless it's clearly "Yeah...we're not gonna do each Inquisitorial branch anymore".

As for "we don't really know what to expect from the Sisters dex"--I dunno about that. Goodwin and Kelly have made it clear they're far more interested in doing "Codex: Ecclesiarchy" with Sisters being the main focus.

People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40K game or can't match up any of the forces haven't read enough.

The Arbites are an incredibly well-trained, disciplined and equipped fighting force, easily in advance of many PDFs and, in many case, superior even to Imperial Guard units.

In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.

In the Grey Knights books, a force of Arbites works alongside Justicar Alaric to wipe out a daemonic infestation.

They are the God-Emperor's enforcers, the protectors of the sacred Lex Imperialis, and they would be the equal of Guardsmen or even Storm Troopers.

Miraclefish wrote:People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40K game or can't match up any of the forces haven't read enough.

The Arbites are an incredibly well-trained, disciplined and equipped fighting force, easily in advance of many PDFs and, in many case, superior even to Imperial Guard units.

People who say things like "People who say Arbites shouldn't be in the 40k game" should read the reasoning before tossing out stones.
Arbites, while well-trained, disciplined, and equipped well--they're usually dead by the time the Guard arrive having sold their lives to the Emperor to try to hold the peace long enough for reinforcements to come to clean the world.

In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.

...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.

In the Grey Knights books, a force of Arbites works alongside Justicar Alaric to wipe out a daemonic infestation.

And then afterwards, everyone of them is 'purged'.
Seriously. Anyone working alongside the Grey Knights can 'wipe out' a Daemonic infestation.

They are the God-Emperor's enforcers, the protectors of the sacred Lex Imperialis, and they would be the equal of Guardsmen or even Storm Troopers.

Nobody's really disputing that. But the idea of the Arbites as a full fledged force on the tabletop or being in large enough numbers to serve as the 'basic' troop for a force is laughable.


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I guess with a "TL;DR" version:

Arbites are cool. They're awesome, in fact.

But they don't belong on the tabletop as an army or basic troop choice.

They really belong as an "Elite" unit type.

The idea of Arbites existing in a standalone Codex (even with PDF) is a nice idea. I envisage it coming out many years after Codex: Night Lords.

In the meantime, it seems to me that they're best represented as counting as Storm Troopers, and their vehilces couting as Chimeras.

Maybe, if a cult vs Arbites campaign is planned and absolutely needs to be using Official Codex Rules, use SM Scouts and PW/SS Vanguards to represent them. In the fluff, Marines are way harder than their tabletop rules, so using toned-down balanced Marine rules within an uprising campaign bubble will produce a reasonable approximation of the one-on-one imbalance between a cultist and an Arbite. Within that paradigm, you could even use a riot vehicle as a LR Redeemer, counting its lethality and durability as representing how weak the weapons of the cult are relative to the standard of equip the Arbites use.

In fact, this sort of narrative-based arranged battle would represent the Arbites far better than throwing in all manner of new stuff and an obligatory plasitic MC to try to make them workable as an all-comers or tourney army.


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Oh, and Arbites are very RT-2ed, and back then every Imperial force had a yard full of Land Raiders, so it'd be even more period accurate

lindsay40k wrote:Maybe, if a cult vs Arbites campaign is planned and absolutely needs to be using Official Codex Rules, use SM Scouts and PW/SS Vanguards to represent them.

You'd be better off using TH/SS Terminators - that's how much Ward screwed up the price on certain upgrades.

Come to think of it, if shock mauls were to power weapons what thunder hammers were to power fists, that would be a pretty good way of representing the weapon, wouldn't it?

@Kanluwen: While 40k's background does deal with some very big conflicts, the game itself is played at a tiny level. You might have a hundred or so Guardsmen on the table but is that really indicative of the scale of the IG whenever it's involved? And if you're using the tens of millions of IG soldiers that actually fight in planetary-scale engagements, much less the great masses that fight in sector-wide wars, as the benchmark then Space Marines don't belong in 40k, either, as they are simply not numerically up to the task. Yeah, there's the old 1000:1 ration between Guardsmen and Space Marines but even at that rate, the Marines don't make up for their numbers.

IMO, it's best not to think too hard about the "realism" factor when measuring up the 40k game with the 40k universe. It's like wondering how ten heroic scale SM fit in a heroic scale Rhino. But I digress . . .

Now if it's not a question of numbers, it must be one of equipment. In that case, you don't have much of an argument. The Arbites seem to be better quipped at an Enforcer-to-Guardsman comparison. They use Rhinos and Repressors. There really is no argument from fluff that they don't have heavy weapons, either, considering that part of their mandate pits them against sector-wide criminal cartels that are likely armed as well or better than PDF if not Guardsmen as well.

I do agree that I'd rather see them as an Elite than a Troop unit, other than being taken as troops via a character. But as lindsay40k mentioned, I doubt such a force would be too competitive. I have heard good things about Death Cult Assassin henchmen armies, however. With GW, you never know -- and you get the sense that they never know, either.


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AlexHolker wrote:Come to think of it, if shock mauls were to power weapons what thunder hammers were to power fists, that would be a pretty good way of representing the weapon, wouldn't it?

I'll have to look it up in the DH materials. but I think shock mauls are the lesser of power mauls. Shock mauls would probably just be a CCW.

Manchu wrote:@Melissia: I'm not sure why you are lumping Arbites with the Ecclesiarchy. As to the Inquisition question, I was referring to seeing Inqs from all ordos in the GK book -- I didn't see anyone predict that one. I also can't tell what you mean by "disclude." My perception was that these would be GK and SoB books rather than "Deamonhunters" and "Witch Hunters," not that either or both books would include every ordo or that one would possibly include none. That's the question as it stands, IMO. Now, one implication of this and the rumor mill is that the Sisters book must have more than Sisters (even though this is not really a lesson from the GK book). The assumption has been Ecclesiarchy but it could -- because of their thematic link as first line planetary defenders -- include Arbites. Just to clarify, the Adeptus Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy have nothing to do with one another organizationally. If Arbites make it into any dex in the next 5 years, it will be a new Sisters book: this is because of their job keeping the Imperium in line -- which is the same in general scope as the Sisters' mission -- not because of some Ecclesiarchical link.

So we agree that the Arbites have nothing to do with The Eccelsiarchy then how do we justify their existance in this book? If the Arbites don't have an HQ choice then the will have some how come under the command of the church. That's not right. If an all Arbites force can be made from a Sisters of Battle codex, well, that's just weird. Like I said I want some Arbites representation somewhere but I'm having a tough time justifiing it in the SoB 'dex.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: While 40k's background does deal with some very big conflicts, the game itself is played at a tiny level. You might have a hundred or so Guardsmen on the table but is that really indicative of the scale of the IG whenever it's involved? And if you're using the tens of millions of IG soldiers that actually fight in planetary-scale engagements, much less the great masses that fight in sector-wide wars, as the benchmark then Space Marines don't belong in 40k, either, as they are simply not numerically up to the task. Yeah, there's the old 1000:1 ration between Guardsmen and Space Marines but even at that rate, the Marines don't make up for their numbers.

The game is meant to represent a snapshot of an 'important part' of an overall war.

That ratio of Guardsmen v. Space Marines isn't necessarily applicable here. After all: who does the Imperium use for surgical strikes or tipping the scales at critical moments?
I'm pretty sure it's those crazy Space Marines.

Now, would they commit as many as we see on the tabletop? Probably not. You'd likely see a force that would number about the same as a Draigowing force.
But we've got the 'Marines have been toned down from the fluff' reason to thank for the Marine spam forces.

IMO, it's best not to think too hard about the "realism" factor when measuring up the 40k game with the 40k universe. It's like wondering how ten heroic scale SM fit in a heroic scale Rhino. But I digress . . .

Like a clown car. There's your realism, sah!

Now if it's not a question of numbers, it must be one of equipment.

It's not a question of numbers or equipment. It's the fact that the majority of the Arbites are dead before rebellions and invasions escalate to the stage that we see in 40k on the tabletop.
What's left over from that would be a few isolated Precints or Arbites who've piled bodies of the traitorous bastards to the level of the skyscrapers they're trying to defend.

In that case, you don't have much of an argument. The Arbites seem to be better quipped at an Enforcer-to-Guardsman comparison. They use Rhinos and Repressors.

Rhinos are better than Chimeras? That's news to me.
Oh wait. You mean Rhinos are better for Arbites, who value speed and response time(oddly enough: much like the Astartes) over the Chimeras and their overall protection+firepower capabilities.

Guard use Chimeras because it provides them with a 'mobile bunker' to work with. A turret mounting a relatively heavy weapon and heavy armor plating=A Very Good Thing when you're wearing flak armor and engaged in combat against the Imperium's real enemies.

There really is no argument from fluff that they don't have heavy weapons, either, considering that part of their mandate pits them against sector-wide criminal cartels that are likely armed as well or better than PDF if not Guardsmen as well.

So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?

The foes they face are not the same. Guard do not regularly face Guard or PDF equivalents. They're regularly facing foes that are better equipped or outnumber them.

I do agree that I'd rather see them as an Elite than a Troop unit, other than being taken as troops via a character. But as lindsay40k mentioned, I doubt such a force would be too competitive. I have heard good things about Death Cult Assassin henchmen armies, however. With GW, you never know -- and you get the sense that they never know, either.

There's still a disconnect in what I'm saying and how you're processing it.

I'm not saying they need to be an Elite choice. I'm saying they need to be in a place where it is obvious that they are an elite, specialized unit.

Well, as mentioned throughout the thread, Arbites and Soritas share the roles of being watchdogs of Terra, both guarding the Imperium from itself. Plus, I don't think we can say for sure that Codex: SoB will really end up as Codex: Ecclesiarchy. That's a rumor spurred on by many hopes but there's nothing hard and fast as of yet to back it up. It stands to reason that this book will be about Sisters first and foremost (hence why I am calling it Codex: SoB) and we know that the Sisters are getting new sculpts. Beyond that, it's speculation. Part of the speculation I've read around Dakka mentioned Arbites. This thread is about (was supposed to be about) discussing how they will fit into a Sisters dex, assuming that they are in it.

I don't think they've toned marines down from the fluff, rather, I think marines in the fluff fudge their dice rolls.

Manchu wrote:Well, as mentioned throughout the thread, Arbites and Soritas share the roles of being watchdogs of Terra, both guarding the Imperium from itself. Plus, I don't think we can say for sure that Codex: SoB will really end up as Codex: Ecclesiarchy. That's a rumor spurred on by many hopes but there's nothing hard and fast as of yet to back it up. It stands to reason that this book will be about Sisters first and foremost (hence why I am calling it Codex: SoB) and we know that the Sisters are getting new sculpts. Beyond that, it's speculation. Part of the speculation I've read around Dakka mentioned Arbites. This thread is about (was supposed to be about) discussing how they will fit into a Sisters dex, assuming that they are in it.

Sororitas aren't "the watchdogs of Terra".

They're the cleansing flame of Terra.

They're very different roles.

@Kanluwen: You need to read up on Arbites. It's not surprising that you don't know much about them given that they're not really mentioned in codices anymore or IA books. The only real source is DH. I think you would reappraise your view of them after studying that information a bit.


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Kanluwen wrote:Sororitas aren't "the watchdogs of Terra".

What practical purpose do Soritas serve? They protect the Imperium against threats from inside. This has always been their shtick, since the days that they were SM-hunters to being signed up as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: You need to read up on Arbites. It's not surprising that you don't know much about them given that they're not really mentioned in codices anymore or IA books. The only real source is DH. I think you would reappraise your view of them after studying that information a bit.

What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.

It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy. They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.

Kanluwen wrote:Sororitas aren't "the watchdogs of Terra".

What practical purpose do Soritas serve? They protect the Imperium against threats from inside. This has always been their shtick, since the days that they were SM-hunters to being signed up as the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus.

Who said anything about them being "practical"? Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?

The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.
Using the Sisters to "protect the Imperium against threats from within" is, to put it bluntly the equivalent of setting your head on fire to avoid dandruff.
And it steps on the toes of the Arbites and PDF as well. Which I guess is something I can see the Ecclesiarchy jerkholes as doing.

Kanluwen wrote:What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.

Not really. You don't seem to be aware of the nature of their opponents ("So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?") so I doubt that you have an accurate idea of how they might be equipped.

It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy.

This has no bearing on whether or not they are a part of 40k.

They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.

Yes, and the scale of that means going toe-to-toe with rogue Governors and even more powerful figures than that.

Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?

Now you've lost me. You don't think the Sisters of Battle protect the Imperium? There must be some kind of failure to communicate here.

The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.

First, Sisters are not a responsive formation like the IG. Sisters are assigned to particular locations. They're already there when the fighting starts. Should-to-shoulder with the Arbites, one might say. Second, punishing Imperial Citizens is the same thing as protecting Imperial Citizens, from an authentically Imperial point of view. But there is no need to pretend that all Sisters do is kill Imperial Citizens. I daresay they're just as liable to fight Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Chaos of either flavor as Guard or Space Marines.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What am I really getting wrong about Arbites? I know their role. I know their make-up, or what little of it we have information on.

Not really. You don't seem to be aware of the nature of their opponents ("So they're facing criminal cartels that have tanks? Again: news to me. Cults and Cartels with loads of heavy weapons, aerial support, etc?") so I doubt that you have an accurate idea of how they might be equipped.

Not really. You're taking a question that was meant as facetious as an admission of lack of knowledge.

Arbites don't face those kinds of things on a day to day basis, whatever Dark Heresy might say.

There's a difference. Do they likely have access to the resources to do it? Yes. But it's a rarity that it will happen.

It doesn't change that they still aren't a force that would be traveling the stars righting wrongs or a force that would be throwing their lot in with the Ecclesiarchy.

This has no bearing on whether or not they are a part of 40k.

It does when it's the tabletop expression of 40k, I'd think. We don't have Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cults on the table. So why would we have the Arbites?

They'd be a force wholly committed to the job they've been given: ensuring that the Lex Imperialis is left unbroken.

Yes, and the scale of that means going toe-to-toe with rogue Governors and even more powerful figures than that.

When you're getting into rogue Governors, the Arbites are going to be working with the Guard or Astartes.

Or disagreeing that they "protect"(really, really, really loosely using this term because it's not really correct) the Imperium against threats from the inside?

Now you've lost me. You don't think the Sisters of Battle protect the Imperium? There must be some kind of failure to communicate here.

Clearly. I'm going to break it down for you:
The Sisters of Battle "protect" the Imperium from threats within like excising cancerous cells "protects" a patient from cancer. They're a reactive force which comes into play once things have gotten so bad that the only way to fix it is to purge it with fire and start anew.

Are they every so often called in to work alongside the Inquisition to clean out cults before things get that bad? Sure. But that doesn't mean that's all they do, 24/7.

The Sisters usually show up when the Lex Imperialis has already broken down. They're not "protecting" the Imperial citizenry from threats--their job is to punish the citizenry for allowing those threats to exist.

First, Sisters are not a responsive formation like the IG. Sisters are assigned to particular locations.

So why weren't there huge amounts of Sisters on Vraks? I mean it's a huge shrineworld with important significance. And they assigned a bodyguard unit to the Cardinal, that's it.

They're already there when the fighting starts. Should-to-shoulder with the Arbites, one might say. Second, punishing Imperial Citizens is the same thing as protecting Imperial Citizens, from an authentically Imperial point of view. But there is no need to pretend that all Sisters do is kill Imperial Citizens.

Sometimes they're already there when the fighting starts, yes. But they're not always going to be there and every instance of rebellion doesn't necessitate the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy. It's seemingly only when there's something for the Ecclesiarchy to gain that they get involved.

I daresay they're just as liable to fight Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Chaos of either flavor as Guard or Space Marines.

When it's a Shrineworld or Ecclesiarchy favored world being threatened, yes.
Sororitas aren't really considered "part of the Imperial warmachine"--and for good reason. They go where the Ecclesiarchy demands, not the Munitorum or Imperial Commanders order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I will say though is I'll leave this to wishlist.

I'm going back to my Secret Project.

Kanluwen wrote:Arbites don't face those kinds of things on a day to day basis, whatever Dark Heresy might say.

As opposed to what you say?

We don't have Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cults on the table. So why would we have the Arbites?

We do have Genestealers in 40k, though . . . Again, I'm not talking about an Arbites book. I'm talking about Arbites units in a Sisters book. Anyway, the current armies are not dispositive of what 40k is, has, been, and will always be about: there were both Arbites and Genestealer lists at one point, remember. Just like there had been a C:SoB, there wasn't one for a while, and now there will be one again (does anyone really think Codex: Ecclesiarchy will be the title?). Things change. That's what this thread is about: how a possible, if not very probable, change might play out.

So why weren't there huge amounts of Sisters on Vraks?

I really don't know. I mean, why were they present at Armageddon? And in force, I might add: several companies from the Order of the Argent Shroud at least. I think the Order of Our Martyred Lady was also present but I cannot remember the details. It's not a shrineworld, that I know of . . .

Sometimes they're already there when the fighting starts, yes. But they're not always going to be there and every instance of rebellion doesn't necessitate the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy. It's seemingly only when there's something for the Ecclesiarchy to gain that they get involved.

While the Sisters are deeply tied to the Ministorum, I don't think the current fluff supports this idea -- not without a lot of filling in the blanks on your own part, at least.

Psst.

Genestealer Cult != Genestealer Brood.

Psst.

Vraks is not a shrineworld its an armoury.