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Kanluwen wrote:I'm really not sure where this "Knight/Templar" image is coming from in regards to the Sororitas.

Outside of having Fleur de Lys and armor, not much about them is very knightly.

They are holy warriors of the church, battling with zeal and faith against its enemies and defending its faithful. Minor orders are formed for specific "quests" in which Sisters in small groups attempt to finish a specific objective along with generally fighting the forces of evil, as well as against heresy and apostasy. They have very ornate power armor which (corset notwithstanding) is reminiscent of plate armor.

DEFINITELY fits the Knight/Paladin/Templar aspect.

One thing that I can't make up my mind about is the idea of having "Psy-Judges." The BoLS fandex has them as what seems to me to be a very obvious homage to Cassandra Anderson. On the one hand, I think the idea has potential. One wonders how psykers are dealt with on a more day-to-day basis and I'd guess something that serious would be dealt with by the Adeptus Arbites. So could there be a specialist ant-psyker Arbitrator squad? Would they themselves be psykers? That last notion is tempting, as the BoLS dex makes clear. But it doesn't really fit the universe, where psykers are not only widely loathed but also routinely rounded up and shipped to Terra.

Sanctionites, however, are those that were shipped to Terra and found both strong of will and strong enough of power to be worthy of bearing the Imperial sanction. Sure they aren't trusted, but they are USED.

While it is doubtful a sanctionite would actually be a part of hte Arbites one being assigned to assist them is not out of the question. Especially a special character.

Melissia wrote:...my complaint was that every time someone-- ANYONE-- tries to suggest something new for Sisters, a large number of clowns posing as otherwise reasonable posters inevitably cry "omg they're becoming marines!". It does not matter what it is that is being added in.

There are a few trolls like that, but you need to recognise that just because some complaints are unjustified doesn't mean they all are. The problem we have with your approach is that you seem to view the lack of things like ordinance, flyers and techpriests as flaws born of incompetent writing that must be corrected, and not a way to make the army list reflect the fluff for a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support, that follows a specific orthodox religon of which worship of the Omnissiah is not a part.

For example:

I would like to see the Sisters get a non-combatant Hospitaller with a FNP aura, escorted by a small bodyguard of Battle Sisters or Celestians. The aura allows her to heal her fellow Sisters without being part of the squad getting shot, encouraging her use in a manner fitting a non-combatant.

Does anyone feel any urges to shout "OMG, they're becoming marines"?

AlexHolker wrote:The problem we have with your approach is that you seem to view the lack of things like ordinance, flyers and techpriests as flaws born of incompetent writing that must be corrected

That's not a problem. That viewpoint is a SOLUTION to the problem, and the problem is "how can we make Sisters into a full fifth edition codex?".

The only flyer I gave them was a transport designed to go from orbit to land. This is something Sisters need in some form or other, and no amount of justification can claim otherwise. Even Guard have military transports to get from point A in space to point B on the ground-- sure, they're owned by the Navy, but even still, SOME kind of justification is needed for Sisters to be able to move from the space transport in orbit to the battlefield on the ground in a battle situation, which they have been shown doing multiple times but without actually showing us HOW. Marines have their drop pods and thunderhawks (marine jump packs don't actually go from orbit to ground, merely from high altitude to prevent them from burning up), Guard have their Grav Chutes and Valkyries. Sisters have their HEY LOOK OVER HERE A DISTRACTION! *changes topic*

And that's basically standard procedure for Sisters' lore.

AlexHolker wrote:a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support

No they aren't . They're forbidden from having MEN at arms. Sisters aren't men. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have a tank, only that men can't drive it. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have an up-armored Arvus Lighter or Aquilla Lander to get them from orbit to ground, only that a man can't fly it for them. The law doesn't say that they can't have a techpriest supporting them or even a techpriest amongst them, it says nothing about that although any techpriest amongst them needs to be not-male.

Seriously, what law are you talking about, except the laws that have never existed in the first place?

Does anyone feel any urges to shout "OMG, they're becoming marines"?

Yes. Because people will scream "omg apothecary THEY'RE BECOMING MORE MEQ!". Yes they will. They already did. Doesn't matter how much different from apothecaries you make the Hospitaller, they'll just say you're trying to make some kind of special apothecary for your special little marine wannabes.

People suck. They're stupid, ignorant, and foolish, and the ones that actually have something of value to contribute to a discussion on what an army needs to become fifth edition are rare exceptions to this rule., and most of THEM have the problem of conflicting views on what exactly the army should be (See our discussion here) making even getting opinions from the people who actually can offer an opinion you care about an iffy proposition.

Hell we can't even agree on the NEED to fill up the plot holes in Sisters lore, nevermind how to fill it up.

Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm really not sure where this "Knight/Templar" image is coming from in regards to the Sororitas.

Outside of having Fleur de Lys and armor, not much about them is very knightly.

They are holy warriors of the church, battling with zeal and faith against its enemies and defending its faithful. Minor orders are formed for specific "quests" in which Sisters in small groups attempt to finish a specific objective along with generally fighting the forces of evil, as well as against heresy and apostasy. They have very ornate power armor which (corset notwithstanding) is reminiscent of plate armor.

DEFINITELY fits the Knight/Paladin/Templar aspect.

"Knight" and "Templar" are not interchangeable with "Paladin".

Paladin is a fantasy archetype built off the other two.

And even then, I'd disagree with it because they don't always "defend the faithful". They do plenty of punishing of the faithful.

Their JOB is to defend the faithful of the Imperium. They don't always succeed, sometimes they kill innocents along with the guilty, but that's the purpose behind their existence. They are but mortals, and they sometimes make mistakes. Doesn't make them any less knightly. Just makes them more human.


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Manchu wrote:Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.

They can wear power armor just like any other Sister. They don't commonly do so because they don't commonly suit up to go directly into battle for the purpose of killing enemies, so usually they wear shield robes, but I doubt GW would make them wear a carapace equivalent when fighting alongside the Orders Militant.

Either way, they'd still just be apothecaries by another name in the eyes of many people.


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From across my time on the internet, I've heard what basically amounts to the following from marine fanboys" Battle sisters are just wannabe tacticals, seraphim are just wannabe assault marines, retributors are just wannabe devastators, repentia are just wannabe death company, penitent engines are just wannabe dreads, celestians are just wannabe sternguard, canonesses are just wannabe captains, and that all Sisters are marines because they all have bolters. Mad doks are just ork apothecaries, and striking scorpions are just marines with T3. I've heard that apparently all AV13 tanks are ripping off marines, all AV14 tanks are just land raider wannabes, that anything that teleports is copying terminators, anything that has jump pack rules is copying assault marines, etc etc etc.

People as a general rule are stupid, and one shouldn't listen to that little stupid part of your brain that says "omg this is more MEQ" because it is lying to you.

It isn't more MEQ-- "MEQ" armies basically already have everything to begin with so all new units will look more like MEQ (and all old units already ARE copies of MEQ units applied to a T3 army), rather, you should worry about not having what specifically defines a marine as a marine instead and try to make units that fit the Sisters' flavor while ignoring the fact that Marines have already basically stolen everything from everyone else to start with.

Deep breaths Melissia.

Melissia wrote:Their JOB is to defend the faithful of the Imperium. They don't always succeed, sometimes they kill innocents along with the guilty, but that's the purpose behind their existence. They are but mortals, and they sometimes make mistakes. Doesn't make them any less knightly. Just makes them more human.

And again: nothing they do is knightly, templary, or paladiny. They're, for lack of a better term, "avengers of the faith". Not its protectors.

Manchu wrote:Sisters Hospitaler are an example of something that would not make SoB more MEQ. For one thing, they are already established in the fluff as pretty distinct from apothecaries. For another thing, they don't wear power armor.

They can wear power armor just like any other Sister. They don't commonly do so because they don't commonly suit up to go directly into battle for the purpose of killing enemies, so usually they wear shield robes, but I doubt GW would make them wear a carapace equivalent when fighting alongside the Orders Militant.

Either way, they'd still just be apothecaries by another name in the eyes of many people.

Making them give FNP would do nothing to help that concept. Just because they're a "medic" doesn't mean they need to give FNP.

From across my time on the internet, I've heard what basically amounts to the following from marine fanboys" Battle sisters are just wannabe tacticals, seraphim are just wannabe assault marines, retributors are just wannabe devastators, repentia are just wannabe death company, penitent engines are just wannabe dreads, celestians are just wannabe sternguard, canonesses are just wannabe captains, and that all Sisters are marines because they all have bolters. Mad doks are just ork apothecaries, and striking scorpions are just marines with T3. I've heard that apparently all AV13 tanks are ripping off marines, all AV14 tanks are just land raider wannabes, that anything that teleports is copying terminators, anything that has jump pack rules is copying assault marines, etc etc etc.

I love how you say that this is exclusive to "marine fanboys". To anyone who isn't reading the Sisters fluff, Sisters are simply Marines in corsets with bad 90's haircuts.

People as a general rule are stupid, and one shouldn't listen to that little stupid part of your brain that says "omg this is more MEQ" because it is lying to you.

MEQ doesn't mean what you think it means.
Is the army made up of mostly 3+ saves with Bolters? If yes: MEQ applies.

It isn't more MEQ-- "MEQ" armies basically already have everything to begin with so all new units will look more like MEQ (and all old units already ARE copies of MEQ units applied to a T3 army), rather, you should worry about not having what specifically defines a marine as a marine instead and try to make units that fit the Sisters' flavor while ignoring the fact that Marines have already basically stolen everything from everyone else to start with.

Deep breaths. Deeeep breaths.

Noir wrote:No, but thats only becouse I think they should of been a limit 1 Elite IG unit. They would join a IG force, when there planet is under full scale invasion.

I agree, and honestly, that's how I feel about the Grey Knights as a whole. Perhaps I'm just living in the past where Grey Knights were a bunch of terminator-armored badasses that showed up in the key part of the battlefield to deal with daemons and nothing but daemons (100 vs. Angron and his 20 bloodthirsters on Armageddon for example). Incorruptible Space Marine psykers with the purest gene seed simply seem too precious to be relegated to rhino-driving duties, or manning power-loaders. But maybe that's just me...

Anyway, like it or not, Ordo Hereticus has plenty of fluff associations with the Sisters of Battle. I think there's a fair chance they just take the assassins and inquisitor-related stuff from C:GK and copy&paste it over. Then you could represent shields/stun battons with crusaders and shotguns with stormbolters.

Interesting discussion. Although now we're a bit distant from the original post, still relative I think though.

Adeptus Arbites:

1.) Hell yes I'd like to see them in this codex. Anyone else see judge dredd dispensing the "LOAAAW?" Seriously though, a new excuse to have an awesome looking model for my Sisters of Badassness? Count me in.

2.) Dunno much about why they'd get involved, and perhaps Melissia seems to have mentioned it is because there's really not much to go off of. (Which I think is perfect, having not much to go off of gives them freedom to create a good reason, rather than being constrained by heavily established fluff and making it contrived.)

3.) Rules-wise? I see them in a support role. Special grenade launcher rounds and the suppression shield. Faith charged bolters already fill the 12 inches niche, so shotguns can get redundant (but redundancy is the new fad?!) but having special grenade launcher rounds can provide utility on the battlefield. It may not be much killy, but it will help the rest of the army do their job. Example: A special grenade round that reduces LD by -2. Or, a round that prevents the target from getting the +1 attack bonus for charging on their turn. Or whatever wacky thing you might be able to think of that would give OTHER units an edge in doing their job.

4.) I personally don't think Arbites would be able to compete in an all out war scenario. I do see them supporting a military force though, hence my focus on a support role.

Side note: As far as the recent Sisters discussion seems to be going: Sister's have one aspect going for them that no other army has: Supernatural abilities powered by nothing but their faith and dedication. More than one opponent would voice to me "what? squishy humans in power armor? Piece of cake." When he saw that my heavy flamers were punching through his terminator armor; he wasn't so happy. Subsequent games had him thinking about the capabilities of the Sister's faith powers, and he saw that they did have a place on the tablestop.

I say that this unique aspect of the Sister should be capitalized on and be a very large focus for the new codex.

Melissia wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:a faction forbidden by law from possessing the capability to wage war without support

No they aren't . They're forbidden from having MEN at arms. Sisters aren't men. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have a tank, only that men can't drive it. The law doesn't say that these Sisters can't have an up-armored Arvus Lighter or Aquilla Lander to get them from orbit to ground, only that a man can't fly it for them. The law doesn't say that they can't have a techpriest supporting them or even a techpriest amongst them, it says nothing about that although any techpriest amongst them needs to be not-male.

Seriously, what law are you talking about, except the laws that have never existed in the first place?

Do you wonder why the Decree Passive forbade the Ecclesiarchy from having men at arms? It's not because the High Lords were feeling particularly sexist that day, it was because they didn't want another Age of Apostasy on their hands. They wanted to weaken the Ecclesiarchy to the point where another Vandire couldn't try to seize control of the Imperium, so they ordered the entire Ecclesiarchy military disbanded.

And the reason Thor was allowed to keep the Sisters is not because the High Lords were some kind of Lawful Stupid fae, bound by words and incapable of responding to someone following the letter and not the spirit of a new rule, it's because they were convinced to accept the Sisters as an exception. That's the Sisters, not everything and anything as long as the crew has two X chromosomes.

Kanluwen wrote:Just because they're a "medic" doesn't mean they need to give FNP.

That's exactly what it means. In 3rd and 4th Editions, it meant ignoring the first failed save each turn. In 5th Edition, it means granting a FNP save.

Is the army made up of mostly 3+ saves with Bolters? If yes: MEQ applies.

What defines the typical marine is his more physical stats-- WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I4.

Not power armor. A marine outside of power armor with no bolter is still a marine with those stats I mentioned above (Scouts being an exception because they haven't built their skills up to WS4/BS4 yet).


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AlexHolker wrote:Do you wonder why the Decree Passive forbade the Ecclesiarchy from having men at arms?

Yes, I damned well do. But the realities of war require more than just a strong heart and good aim. The Sisters also exist because they help regulate the power of the Ecclesiarchy, as the Sisters are themselves essentially inviolate in purity.

So what, exactly, about everything you said prevents Sisters from, say, flying a modified Arvus/Aquilla lander to drop off a squad of sisters on or near the battlefield? This isn't some extraordinary craft designed for combat, nor is it a long-ranged space faring vessel. It is a light orbital lander designed to move personnel from point A in space to point B on the ground. What, exactly, about everything you said prevents Sisters from driving tanks-- which they already have in a lighter form-- to cleanse their enemies? What, exactly, about everything yous aid prevents Sisters from utilizing a different style of warfare than normal, from one of the many, MANY ecclesiarchal sects whom are deemed faithful enough? The Ecclesiarchy as a general rule has two basic tenets, which is worship the Emperor and don't consort with Chaos/Xenos, and within those two rulesets it has a wide variety of beliefs depending on the planet.

Hell, to try to drag this back on topic, one could even say that Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy often have a lot in common because of this (Arbites shut down heretical cults, investigate daemon worship, and break up trade rings which deal with xenos as part of their jobs on most planets). Many of the Adeptus Arbites are trained by the Ecclesiarchy to boot (through the Schola Progenium).

Somewhat off-topic but Melissia, I know you think the Adeptus Soriatus are the "good guys" but they really aren't. They're stone-cold killers. I think you might be in for a surprise very similiar to the 'I thought the Grey Knights were White Knights" controversy that Dakka went through a while ago. SoBs are one of the darker, hard-core factions.

The simple fact is GW doesn't really want to represent any single faction in 40k or WFB to be clear cut good guys 100% of the time. In WFB, look at Bretonnians who went from being Arthurian knights to being corrupt lords who keep their peasants in their place through ignorance and oppression while exploiting myth. I think SoB and GK have seen similar things happen with them. GW wants there to always be exceptions with every faction to allow players to interpret the army as broadly as they like.

The only thing that I would object to is if Sisters are made out to be victims in this regard rather than the aggressors: "poor girls are never told anything but what they're doing is for the best, and they're naive enough to believe it, bless them." That'd be awful. GK do what they must in full knowledge of its moral consequence and I think Sisters should be the same in that regard.

Maybe it boils down to a difference in tone but I'd rather have: "Initiates sometimes balk at the horror of their duty but must soon overcome this moral weakness or face expulsion from their order. The faith of a fully-fledged Sister of Battle precludes all doubt; for doubt can lead only to heresy, and heresy can lead only to damnation. Those Sisters who detect even the shadow of doubt in their conscience expunge it with vows as a Repentia, paying for any potential infidelity by spending the balance of their lives in constant penance. Such is the magnitude of what the Emperor demands from His daughters."

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhat off-topic but Melissia, I know you think the Adeptus Soriatus are the "good guys" but they really aren't. They're stone-cold killers. I think you might be in for a surprise very similiar to the 'I thought the Grey Knights were White Knights" controversy that Dakka went through a while ago. SoBs are one of the darker, hard-core factions.

The Grey Knights were never, ever white knights, and anyone that thought that is an idiot. Even back in 2nd edition they were making hard choices that made the more weeny inhabitants of the 40k universe (like Logan Grimnar) hate them for it.

The controversy was that they were these perfect, incorruptible knights fighting a hopeless uphill battle against the daemon, knowing that victory is impossible and defeat is inevitable, but carrying on regardless. All they needed was their incredibly valuable suit of terminator armor and their trusty Nemesis weapon. Now they are these ultra hard core badasses that are curbstomping demons all over the place, there is a subfaction that's even more pure than 100% pure, and there is a guy within that subfaction who is even more pure than the guys who are more pure than 100% pure, and they have Aliens-style power loaders and are delegating masterful incorruptible Space Marine psykers to driving transports.

Anyway, how exactly is the Ecclesiarchy/Sororitas "hardcore dark-side"? I mean, yes, they do a lot of things in the style of the Dark Ages Inquisition, burning/torturing those even suspected of heresy and the like, but come on, this is the 40K universe. That kind of hard-core crackdown is MANDATORY unless you want your skies to split in two and drown the world in blood and daemons every other weekend.

The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.

Not to Godwin this up but the SoBs are the SS of the Imperium, including the Einsatzgruppen. Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done? The Ecclesiarchy and their chamber militant. The wars of faith? Many worlds have mutant slave labour but technically this is illegal. All mutants and must die and its the Ordo Hericitus and SoBs that carry out this decree. And not nicely: with fire! In DoW the Sisters are described as the most fearsome faction of all of them and this is a game with Orks, Chaos Marines, Necrons and the rest. No! The SoBs are the most frightening. There's a reason for this. C:WH is the only 'dex to throw around the word Pogrom.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?

The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.

Exterminatus is carried out by whoever is around at the time. As far as I know, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't even have the authority to issue an Exterminatus (not to mention them lacking the fleet resources that it takes to annihilate a planet).

As for exterminating the mutant, the psyker and the heretic, again, this is sheer necessity.

aka_mythos wrote:The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.

Not falling to Chaos doesn't really make you a white knight. If you see Grey Knights, there are not there to save you, it means you and everything you've ever known is doomed.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?

The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.

Good 'ole fashioned subhuman/human bonfires though? That's the SoBs trademark. Their motto should be "Kill it fire!"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Genocide is standard operating procedure of the IoM. Who do you think is the one getting that done?

The Imperial Guard most of the time. Other times it's Sisters. Other times it's Astartes. Other times it's just the Imperial Navy bombing them into oblivion.

Good 'ole fashioned subhuman/human bonfires though? That's the SoBs trademark. Their motto should be "Kill it fire!"

And yet, the Guard and Astartes also do this.

I've always liked the Sisters. For me, the acts of faith are something that really helped cement them as 'not MEQ'. That there is something that'd serve well as a foundation for distinct specialist units - maybe some sort of 'choir' unit that doesn't have any fighting value, but has an aura of easier/free acts of faith.

And you can expect a bigass plastic MC. Accept that right now, folks

Not really. Guard at the behest on the Inquistion maybe, but I don't see Astartes bothering to go clear out an illegal mutant ghetto.

lindsay40k wrote:For me, the acts of faith are something that really helped cement them as 'not MEQ'.

I heartily agree. And I think they are further distinguished by Acts of Faith because there is diversity in their current book but they are still the only units in the book that can access them. (Of course, I would like to see this re-worked so that Repentia can also benefit as they are in fact Sisters of Battle, albeit Sisters without bolters -- hey a good band name!)

So any Arbites in a new book should certainly not have access to Acts of Faith, tremendously faithful to the Emperor and His Law though they are.

withershadow wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The fact that the GK fluff has for the longest time stated that in 10,000 years not a single GK has defected to chaos, I'd say they're probably as white knight as it comes. Simply nothing in 40k is meant to be straight forwardly good.

Not falling to Chaos doesn't really make you a white knight. If you see Grey Knights, there are not there to save you, it means you and everything you've ever known is doomed.

Well not falling to chaos mean incorruptible... and when I say they're as "white knight as it comes," I'm speaking relativistically... as in everything else in the universe is soooooo not white knight that the Grey Knights incorruptibility makes them the closest to being "white knight." This is not to say they're "white knight"... just given the setting they're one of the closest thing.

I would say they're more like Paladins in that they're immune to spiritual corruption and their mere presence is anathema to the unnatural--but the flesh can still fail them and they can fall to the forces of 'evil' that they oppose.

Paladins are immune to spirtual corruption and anathema to warp entities? I thought that was Purifiers? Also, isn't this tangent about GK pretty far off-topic?

Aaaaaanyway. Book of Judgment for DH will be coming out later this year so we will definitely see a lot more of the Adeptus Arbites there.