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Actually, it's neither of those.

It's based upon the Bren Gun.

GeckoOBac wrote:That's a Japanes Type 99 from the WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_Light_Machine_Gun

Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:That's a Japanes Type 99 from the WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_Light_Machine_Gun

Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.

Heh No idea...

just one last thing:
Kanluwen: With the detail on the mini I'd say it's kinda hard to notice any difference between the two... The features are all there... Conical muzzle, side handle, curved magazine on top of the weapon, rifle stock and pistol grip...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:That's a Japanes Type 99 from the WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_Light_Machine_Gun

Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.

Yes they will. Island warfare almost always ended in brutal hand-to-hand, with no time to swith weapons, so it made since to fire until there right on top of you then stab the first guy to get to you with the gun. Watch some WW2 films, not movies, but really file footage, its not pretty.

Noir wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:That's a Japanes Type 99 from the WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_Light_Machine_Gun

Why the hell does that thing have a bayonet on it!? Is some Japanese maniac really going around trying to stab somebody with that? Anyways, getting off-topic I reckon.

Yes they will. Island warfare almost always ended in brutal hand-to-hand, with no time to swith weapons, so it made since to fire until there right on top of you then stab the first guy to get to you with the gun. Watch some WW2 films, not movies, but really file footage, its not pretty.

Yeah but that thing is kinda long and most importantly weighs 11 kg... I doubt you're going to stab anybody with that.

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.

...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.
fact.

So, you're declaring me wrong, and then stating fact, despite not having read the book?

Victories of the Space Marines. Black Dawn by C.L. Werner.

"An artefact from the Great Crusade – a bolt pistol used by Roboute Guilliman himself – is unearthed on the planet Vulscus. However, the relic may not be all that it appears, and the Inquisiton send the vicious Warbringers Space Marines to retrieve it."

Miraclefish wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:In the recent Victories of the Space Marines book, well, I won't spoil it, but an attacking force of Astartes see the Arbites as the only force present in an entire system who could challenge them and have to re-work their plans as a result.

...That's adorable.
And so very wrong. Was this Alpha Legion who were attacking? Because that's the only reason I can see the two things being tied together.
fact.

So, you're declaring me wrong, and then stating fact, despite not having read the book?

Victories of the Space Marines. Black Dawn by C.L. Werner.

"An artefact from the Great Crusade – a bolt pistol used by Roboute Guilliman himself – is unearthed on the planet Vulscus. However, the relic may not be all that it appears, and the Inquisiton send the vicious Warbringers Space Marines to retrieve it."

No, I'm saying that the idea of Space Marines being defeated by Arbites is adorable.

Like an ant killing an exterminator.

Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.

One Navy S.E.A.L would put down a civillian armed with a few rocks without breaking a sweat. Make that a hundred civillians and he's a dead man.

Though the preferred Arbites weapon is a shotgun, they have access to bolters. Their preferred specialist weapon is a grenade launcher. Both are more than capable of putting down Marines.

Miraclefish wrote:Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.

Why is it that the Imperial Guard seem to be the only imperial force to not have Rhinos?

They're easier to make I reckon.

Anyways, What's a Repressor? Is it lilke the SWAT APC with the battering ram on the front?

Miraclefish wrote:Except that there may be tens of thousands of Arbites and a few dozen Astartes. Arbites who have fortified strongholds all over the planet, have access to Rhino APCs, large caliber weapons and very capable body armour.

And those "tens of thousands of Arbites" aren't going to be objecting to an Inquisitorial order to turn an artifact over to the Astartes.
Nor will those "tens of thousands of Arbites" be in a single place every single time to counter the few dozen Astartes.

And to say "very capable body armor" for Arbites is going to be stopping bolt rounds is kinda silly. It works both ways.
But it just leads me to believe it's a badly written story that makes no sense and is only in there because hey, they couldn't think of anything else to put in. Plus "The Inquisition did it" is as common as "The Warp did it".

halonachos wrote:
Why is it that the Imperial Guard seem to be the only imperial force to not have Rhinos?

Why do people think that the Imperial Guard need Rhinos?
Rhinos are lightly armored vehicles that deliver specialist troops into short range and melee combat.

The Chimera fills the role the Guard need filled: a heavily armored mobile firebase that works well with their infantry formations.
The Rhino or even a Razorback wouldn't work well in that role.

Kanluwen, please read the story...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're easier to make I reckon.

Anyways, What's a Repressor? Is it lilke the SWAT APC with the battering ram on the front?

It's a Rhino variant that was originally designed to 'repress' riots on Imperial held worlds.

It had a turret mounted water cannon and a grenade launcher to dispense chemical/incapacitating grenades. The Arbites basically had the design yanked out from under them by the Sororitas during an instance where Sisters had pretty much let the world go to hell and back while the Arbites were trying to suppress riots.

The Sororitas 'offered' to crew a number of Repressors, and immediately pulled the water cannon and grenade launcher to replace them with a flamethrower and bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Miraclefish wrote:Kanluwen, please read the story...

Only if you realize that C.L. Werner is a terrible author.

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Kanluwen, please read the story...

Only if you realize that C.L. Werner is a terrible author.

To be fair, he's not that good, I agree....

Which was my point to begin with.

The story is, from the extract I've read(no way am I buying the whole book or even $2.99 for his story alone) your pretty basic Goto-esque fare.

The Arbites being present shouldn't affect how a Space Marine Chapter plans an operation that has Inquisitorial authority.
Arbites, period, would not challenge Inquisitorial authority unless there's something bigger going on(doubtful)...or the author isn't too familiar with the idea of the Arbites.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're easier to make I reckon.

Anyways, What's a Repressor? Is it lilke the SWAT APC with the battering ram on the front?

It's a Rhino variant that was originally designed to 'repress' riots on Imperial held worlds.

It had a turret mounted water cannon and a grenade launcher to dispense chemical/incapacitating grenades. The Arbites basically had the design yanked out from under them by the Sororitas during an instance where Sisters had pretty much let the world go to hell and back while the Arbites were trying to suppress riots.

The Sororitas 'offered' to crew a number of Repressors, and immediately pulled the water cannon and grenade launcher to replace them with a flamethrower and bolters.

Well I'll danged.

Water cannon?

Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)

Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.

Manchu wrote:Water cannon?

Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)

That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?

Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.

The fact that the story somehow has Arbites as being the "biggest obstacle" to an Inquisition sponsored Astartes operation is what makes it 'less canonical' and is why I'm saying Werner should stick to Fantasy.

That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does IA2 make any mentions of Black Marias?

Manchu wrote:That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.

No we don't. We can discard the bad/ridiculous as "overexaggerated tales spun by Imperial citizenry during their drinking".

Also, does IA2 make any mentions of Black Marias?

Not that I saw.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.

No we don't. We can discard the bad/ridiculous as "overexaggerated tales spun by Imperial citizenry during their drinking"..

There are three possibilities with GW's IP:

(1) There is no canon in any sense: no argument can be drawn from any source whatsoever. (GW's official "cop-out" stance.)

(2) Canon is a matter of each fan's taste: no objective argument can be drawn from any source.

(3) If there is any canon at all, then it is made up of everything not explicitly rejected (Heretical Tomes) or explicitly "retconned." This is the only option that allows for objective discussion of the 40k background.

Now, that's not to say we can't have both. The Wolf of Fenris story is a good example of something that I simultaneously accept as a CSM fan and reject as a SW fan, for example. This is of course possible because of option one above: GW itself says "there is no canon," meaning any source is as likely to be false as it is likely to be true (because it's made up of equal parts of myth, history, propaganda, and disinformation). Now if you really apply that ridiculous standard, even Space Marines could just be a legend. All these accounts in the codices and BL novels are just propaganda to whip up the masses, right? Okay, that's stupid. Yes, and so is saying "such-and-such does not comport with my opinion of the fluff and therefore it's just been made up by whoever (in-universe) reported it."

I figured it was pretty obvious when I say "X is a terrible author and not canon", my stance is "I refuse to consider this person's terrible writings as canon and would rather read a public bathroom stall".

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Water cannon?

Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)

That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?

Moreoever, the fact that a story was written by C. L. Werner (who is not a bad author), that you don't like it, or that the information that it contains is contrary to a point you're making does not make it any less "canonical" (such as it is) than the stories you do like or agree with or are written by Aaron D-B.

The fact that the story somehow has Arbites as being the "biggest obstacle" to an Inquisition sponsored Astartes operation is what makes it 'less canonical' and is why I'm saying Werner should stick to Fantasy.

To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

Kan, as far as I can tell The Marines merely factored in the Arbites presence into their strategic planning. This is hardly wild and crazy Gotoism. It would be unrealistic for them to not factor in the Arbites. They factor in everything, that's their job.

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Kanluwen wrote:my stance is "I refuse to consider this person's terrible writings as canon and would rather read a public bathroom stall".

Noted. It just means that having a meaningful conversation with you about this stuff is impossible since your own personal 40k universe is not really relevant. All I can really do is ask you "well, how much do you hate it?" Granted, sometimes I do want to know that.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:That's as may be but it is not in fact "less canonical." We have to take the good/plausible with the bad/ridiculous.

No we don't. We can discard the bad/ridiculous as "overexaggerated tales spun by Imperial citizenry during their drinking"..

There are three possibilities with GW's IP:

(1) There is no canon in any sense: no argument can be drawn from any source whatsoever. (GW's official "cop-out" stance.)

(2) Canon is a matter of each fan's taste: no objective argument can be drawn from any source.

(3) If there is any canon at all, then it is made up of everything not explicitly rejected (Heretical Tomes) or explicitly "retconned." This is the only option that allows for objective discussion of the 40k background.

Now, that's not to say we can't have both. The Wolf of Fenris story is a good example of something that I simultaneously accept as a CSM fan and reject as a SW fan, for example. This is of course possible because of option one above: GW itself says "there is no canon," meaning any source is as likely to be false as it is likely to be true (because it's made up of equal parts of myth, history, propaganda, and disinformation). Now if you really apply that ridiculous standard, even Space Marines could just be a legend. All these accounts in the codices and BL novels are just propaganda to whip up the masses, right? Okay, that's stupid. Yes, and so is saying "such-and-such does not comport with my opinion of the fluff and therefore it's just been made up by whoever (in-universe) reported it."

"
Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon. I believe its just "bad writing" or perhaps you could call it "poorly explained fluff". I'm sure there's some literary term for this I don't know, but basically you can have anything happen if you write a proper explanation for it. And I don't mean in a sci-fi techno-bable way, even just something simple like a character's emotional journey. Just like the "Draigo pwning Mortarion" incident the Wolf of Fenris fiasco would probably be a lot more acceptable to us if the had been the climax in an entire novel. The way they are presented now is pretty hard to swallow though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Water cannon?

Kan, a post of yours is once again writing checks that the fluff cannot cash. (Unless this is from IA II, which I have not read.)

That is, in fact, from IA2.
Do you want the full quote?

I'll take a page number to read about it myself. I thought IA2 was just Space Marines.

Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon.

Yeah, that was my point. As a SW fan, I say "no way, that's Chaos BS." But as a CSM fan, I say "no one can resist the Ruinous Powers!"

In the end, when the question is asked "have any SW ever defected to Chaos?" I have to answer, yes, in the Wolf of Fenris story in the CSM. I can't just claim it's some crap written by a crappy author and therefore never happened. Ironically, and to his credit, Kanluwen has been a vociferous opponent of this being done to Mat Ward but C. L. Werner gets no love? Admittedly, the hate for Mat Ward is much less informed and far, far more annoying.

Manchu wrote:

Unfortunately Manchu, just like how Kan must acknowledge that indeed one time Space Marines noticed Arbites existed you must acknowledge the Wolf of Fenris incident as Canon.

Yeah, that was my point. As a SW fan, I say "no way, that's Chaos BS." But as a CSM fan, I say "no one can resist the Ruinous Powers!"

In the end, when the question is asked "have any SW ever defected to Chaos?" I have to answer, yes, in the Wolf of Fenris story in the CSM. I can't just claim it's some crap written by a crappy author and therefore never happened. Ironically, and to his credit, Kanluwen has been a vociferous opponent of this being done to Mat Ward but C. L. Werner gets no love? Admittedly, the hate for Mat Ward is much less informed and far, far more annoying.

If it were simply a case of "Well, the Warbringers Chapter considered them in their planning stage and realized they'd be a non-issue since they could pull out the whole Inquisitorial Writ and supercede the Arbites"--then I'd be game and acknowledge it.

From the way Miraclefish is making it out to be--the Warbringers seriously considered killing and fighting Arbites to retrieve an artifact for an Inquisitor(which makes no sense to happen anyways. The Inquisition has the Red Hunters Chapter at its beck and call for things like this, why wouldn't he just request them to go and do it?).

Which reminds me: Arbites presences on a planet depend upon the importance of the planet and the make-up of the planet. A feudal backwater would have a few hundred, at best--while somewhere like Vraks and Taros would have had tens of thousands of Arbites with fortified strongholds, etc.

That's what makes it arguably a situation where "it never happened" in my opinion.
In all fairness, I also don't count some of the earlier Gaunt's Ghosts novels anymore as really being 'canon'--and I love Dan Abnett. The only things I really 'count' from them are general things that haven't changed over the years--the majority of The Founding cycle are similar to Space Marine or the Inquisition Wars in my view.