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I think miraclefish's response would be to read the book. Failing that, at least hear him out before discounting the book as a giant piece of non-canonical crap.
IMO there's nothing in The Founding that needs to be considered non-canon. Fluff doesn't have an expiry date. It's Canon until retconed.

That is also my understanding, KC.

@Kan: You've said Arbites have had landspeeders and sentinels forever. Where are you getting that info? (I can't find a copy of Citadel Journal 29.)

Manchu wrote:That is also my understanding, KC.

@Kan: You've said Arbites have had landspeeders and sentinels forever. Where are you getting that info? (I can't find a copy of Citadel Journal 29.)

I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".

Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).

@KC: Paying to read a book with no authors I like(aside from Sarah Cawkwell, whose short story I've read while I was in Borders one day waiting on a friend) isn't going to happen.
And I'm vehemently against piracy of any kind--so it's a nogo situation. I've heard him out. But when the continual response is "Read the book"--I don't think there's much more to be said/heard don't you?
As for "there's nothing in the Founding that needs to be considered non-canon", you're right. There's no real reason for it to be considered non-canon except for it doesn't 'mesh' with the way the fluff's been. Things like Storm Bolters on tripods as defensive weapons for a trench line, or Heavy Stubbers 'pulping' armored Guardsmen...yeah.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:That is also my understanding, KC.

@Kan: You've said Arbites have had landspeeders and sentinels forever. Where are you getting that info? (I can't find a copy of Citadel Journal 29.)

I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".

Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).

@KC: Paying to read a book with no authors I like(aside from Sarah Cawkwell, whose short story I've read while I was in Borders one day waiting on a friend) isn't going to happen.
And I'm vehemently against piracy of any kind--so it's a nogo situation. I've heard him out. But when the continual response is "Read the book"--I don't think there's much more to be said/heard don't you?
As for "there's nothing in the Founding that needs to be considered non-canon", you're right. There's no real reason for it to be considered non-canon except for it doesn't 'mesh' with the way the fluff's been. Things like Storm Bolters on tripods as defensive weapons for a trench line, or Heavy Stubbers 'pulping' armored Guardsmen...yeah.

Then ask questions on specific points of contention.

As for The Founding, really? That's what you going with? Heavy Stubbers will very much pulp a Guardsmen. The fact that a person somewhere in an empire of trillions spanning 10,000 years put a stormbolter on a tripod is more than reasonable. Just because it's not an option in your army list doesn't mean it's a fluff error.

Heavy Stubbers will "very much pulp a Guardsman"...wearing the kind of kit that you see on standard Guardsmen.

They won't, however, pulp carapace armored Grenadiers like the Volpone or Urdeshi.

I said the storm bolter thing because the statement surrounding it in the first book? It says that the Storm Bolter is on a tripod "due to the immense recoil, which no regular human can use".

When the strength of a weapon equals the toughness of the victim the wounds are merely "horrific". When it exceds it, you are getting into pulping and even vaporizing territory.
Just a bolter of Astartes pattern is unusable by humans. Generally, storm-bolters are unweildy even of the proper make. Tri-pod sounds like a good idea to me.
Anyways, we are now debating tedious minutia. rather get back to the OT.

I really don't know if they should be included.

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Fine, fine, I didn't want to post a description, but here we go:

Miraclefish wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?

It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"

GeckoOBac wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?

It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"

The Inquisition do have authority - if they choose to reveal themselves. But knowledge is their most treasured possession and weapon. If they do not declare themselves, the Arbites would react in the only way they can...

Frequently the Arbites are in the employ of the Inquisition anyway, whether they know it or not.

I tend to think Arbites do have a place in a Ordo Hereticus/Sisters of Battle Codex. While the Ordo Hereticus and Sisters do not have direct control of the Adeptus Arbites, more than any other Ordo, they make extensive use of the Adeptus Arbites. I think there inclusion should be in place of storm troopers or any other non-hereticus imperial troops. The Adeptus Arbites are trained in the Schola Progenita alongside Stormtroopers and are suppose to be as capable of fighting.

There fluff describes them as not just see to imperial law on planets, but upon invasion organizing the defenses of the planet and in case of the planetary governments fall to outside forces they see to the organizing of underground resistancesl; they also provide the muscle for the Imperiums civillian penal system, which the Ordo Hereticus takes advantage of in finding redemptive souls in the different penitent units. I don't see them marching off to battle, I think if the SoB called for their aid, they would provide it. I don't think they should have their own codex, because of how the scope of 40k now eclipses them, I think a fluff spirited pressence in the SoB book is more than warranted. Plus, if SoB are going to play that dominatrix thing someone has to play whipping boy.

Kanluwen wrote:I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".

Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).

I have Citadel Journal 29... there is no mention of sentinels... but at different points Arbites have been portrayed with landspeeders.

The established aspects of the Adeptus Arbites from Citadel Journal... they have patrol teams with special shotguns and special weapon... they have Judges and Marshals as HQs... they have bolter equipped combat teams... they have execution teams with heavy weapons... they have shock teams with the riot gear... a bike team... they have access to both Chimeras and Rhinos.... they're are several units mentioned but given no rules: telepathic interegators, snipers, and an extensive medical corps.

From other sources they have landspeeders and the repressor. They have also been mentioned as having on one very very very rare instance access to a single Leman Russ.

Additionally, Adeptus Arbites can take command of planetary defense forces and Enforcer teams. The enforcer teams are the local police and are where the Mastiffs and heavy stubbers come from... they're generally as well equipped, but not neccessarily as thoroughly indoctrinated or trained... and in some ways have lesser versions of Arbite equipment. For example Adeptus Arbite riot teams have power mauls and suppression shield... Enforcers have shock mauls and riot shields.

Anything else has just been made up at different points by people trying to justify their own Arbite codex and some "cool" unique unit to distingguish them.

Miraclefish wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Maybe the 'holy relic' isn't so holy?

It still isn't in the league of the Arbites to judge such things. AFAIK their only role is to make sure the imperial law is obeyed. They don't even care about LOCAL laws. So, if the Inquisition says jump, loyal arbites do not ask "how high?" but "Can we land afterwards?"

The Inquisition do have authority - if they choose to reveal themselves. But knowledge is their most treasured possession and weapon. If they do not declare themselves, the Arbites would react in the only way they can...

Ok I don't know the story but... If the inquisitor sent Space Marines to retrieve a holy relic without saying anything to the arbites, then arbites may indeed be questioning why the astartes are coming in arms to do that... But in that case the attitude of the Inquisitor is much more questionable and may indeed garner some attention from fellow inquisitors... I have no doubt that many of the inquisitors opposing this guy would see this as a good way to put his actions in bad light and maybe even get him under investigation...

Have a look at my post a few messages up, I've added a spoiler which explains more.

aka_mythos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I didn't ever have a copy of Citadel Journal 29. I'm remembering a fluff piece from Andy Chambers around 2002 where it mentioned they're "things they can get a hold of, depending on the locality. Some Arbites on heavier industrialized worlds will have them, while Arbites on more feudal worlds will have no real need for anything that heavy".

Land Speeders though should be obvious. Eisenhorn was the first place to make mention of that one, with Fischig having an Arbites Land Speeder at his disposal(and it was mentioned as one of several).

I have Citadel Journal 29... there is no mention of sentinels... but at different points Arbites have been portrayed with landspeeders.

Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Miraclefish wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:
To be fair it's not a bad story. And the Inquisitor doesn't wish to betray his presence, nor does he get involved. He merely requests aid from the Astartes. And on a backwater planet, why wouldn't the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic?

On any planet still wholly loyal to the Imperium, why would the Arbites be the biggest obstacle to retrieving a holy relic for the Inquisition?

That's the problem.

Fine, fine, I didn't want to post a description, but here we go:

Spoiler:

The holy relic, Roboute Guilleman's Bolt Pistol, iit turns out, isn't so holy... it's a weapon once wielded by the arch-traitor Horus Lupercal when he claimed the world during the Great Crusade. The Ordo Hereticus know this, they request assistance to retrieve it. They cannot afford for anyone else to learn the true nature of this artefact, so they decide, on reflection, to strike at the planet and take the bolt pistol. The lives of a few thousand Imperial citizens are nothing compared to the billions of cultists and worse who would be drawn to claim this unholiest of relics.

It's a small system on the fringes with only a PDF garrison and ground-to-space defences. The Astartes figure there are two threats to their stealth operation on the planet: the formidable laser defense batteries and the large, well trained, Rhino-equipped Arbites garrison.

What part of this is so unbelievable? Oh, yeah, you'd need to read the book before judging it...

Arbites can be a threat to Astartes. That's not in dispute. But with the mention of "two threats to their stealth operation on the planet" and one being the defense batteries and the other being the Arbites garrison--it makes me think someone doesn't know the definition of "stealth".

Could it be that the issue is: "if we are not able to get in covertly, here are the two issues that will be the most dangerous?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kanluwen: The BOLS fandex and the one Huckleberry wrote in the long, long ago both include Sentinels. I don't think either includes Landspeeders.

Manchu wrote:Could it be that the issue is: "if we are not able to get in covertly, here are the two issues that will be the most dangerous?"

That makes perfect sense of course, but it's not how the thinking has been stated.

I still want to know why the heck it's the Warbringers Chapter(which I don't think I have anything on. Two closest matches I can find are "Warmongers" and "Emperor's Warbringers") and not the Red Hunters(who have incredibly close ties to the Inquisition, to the point where they incorporate the Inquisitorial sigil in their Chapter livery). That's puzzling to me.

It's the Emperor's Warbringers.

Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition. In fact most chapters have aided the Inquisition at some point.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition. In fact most chapters have aided the Inquisition at some point.

"Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition"--but the Red Hunters are said to have an incredibly close tie to the Inquisition, to the point where they provide bodyguards for Inquisitors and invasion forces when the Inquisition needs them.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition. In fact most chapters have aided the Inquisition at some point.

"Any Chapter can aid the Inquisition"--but the Red Hunters are said to have an incredibly close tie to the Inquisition, to the point where they provide bodyguards for Inquisitors and invasion forces when the Inquisition needs them.

Yes, of course. Still, the point remains.

Still doesn't make much sense... If nobody know about the relic, just send your henchmen with the inquisition sigil to retrieve it. If it's already in the hands of heretics the matter is different but that doesn't seem the scenario described...

It's The Inquisition. Kill everyone and let the God-Emperor sort it out is SOP.

The whole "flip out your badge" mentality is kind of ambivalent. On the one hand, Inquisitors are said to be able to command every single resource of the Imperium in pursuit of their goals. On the other hand, it's said that almost no one in the Imperium has eve heard of the Inquisition. It makes me wonder whether Arbites who had never worked with the Inquisition would likely respond "very good, citizen, you may take the holy relic at your convenience." And, while Space Marines are certainly imposing, they're hardly perceived throughout the Imperium as infallible and immune to corruption. Some Astartes showing up all of the sudden to take the most important object on your planet would hardly be met with cooperation. It seems that the point of the story is that Astartes attacking Imperial citizens is less scandalous than finding out that this relic purportedly owned by the great Guilliman is actually a dangerous relic of Horus. That sounds like a pretty authentic point of GrimDark to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we should also remember that Astartes are subject to the Lex Imperialis like any other citizens and it is the Lex itself that makes exceptions (such as aptus-non tithe grades for Chapter Worlds and Forge Worlds).

I would say Imperials are aware of The Inquisition's existance though. Just saying The Inquisition in a crowded room makes children cry and old ladies faint.

Actually I would say that the population at large (with the exception of specific planets) knows OF the Inquisition.

Of course, what they know is a pack of lies, propaganda, and fear-mongering that induces people to tell things whenever a real Inquisitor shows up.

This is not what the codices and novels say, however . . .

I guess in some places, knowledge of the Inquisition is common place. Like in the Formosa (sub?) sector, which is ruled by Coteaz. But the rest of their fluff makes them seem completely unknown to all but the higher rungs of authority. My guess would be that means planetary governors and up.

It's how they're portrayed in Eisenhorn. What I said about people crying at just seeing one actually happens in there.

How are they recognized? I'm not trying to call you out, it's just been a right long while since I read the Eisenhorn books.

Manchu wrote:How are they recognized? I'm not trying to call you out, it's just been a right long while since I read the Eisenhorn books.

That's kind of the thing.

Nobody really can "recognize" the Inquisition--unless they want to be recognized. That's what makes them the whole "avenging shadow, purging the Imperium of its faults" bit.