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Kanluwen wrote:Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.

That was written by Tim Huckleberry... the Citadel Journal issue 29 was all that Andy Chambers wrote on them for 40k. Mr. Huckleberry in my opinion did the Arbites a great disservice. He wrote a list that largely ignored the fluff and is responsible for alot of the confussion about the Adeptus Arbites. He treated the Adeptus Arbites as local police... thats what "Enforcers" are... and so his list used a lot of light IG weapons and water cannons, suppressing and debilitating weapons. His list was never official, his fluff was never official; he's just given a lot of credit because at the time he was one of the few people at GW who cared enought about the Arbites, but he was only a play tester and Citadel Journal contributer and not a designer. So his personal fandexes were some how elevated to some intermediate level of acceptability.

Adeptus Arbites are really more heavy handed part FBI part secret police. No doubt they'd be present in taking charge of enforcers in a major incident, but a paramilitary force that is described as being able to selectively engage and take out planetary defence forces that have gone rogue wouldn't bother with water cannons. Even if they did have water cannons, who would want to bring that to fight off tyranid hordes. Does the Imperium's paramilitant authoritarian hand that enforces the laws and dictates of the High Lords of Terra and the Emperor on civilized worlds in this grim dark future sound like the type that would bring waterguns to a battle?

Ooh, ooh, ooh best comparison?

"Batman Begins".
The scene at the dockyard, where he busts up the drug import. The goons are talking about "some freak in a cape" and being braggarts about what they'd do to him if they ever saw him--but when confronted with it, they're whimpering little kids.

I guess my concern is that anyone could pull out a piece of metal in the shape of an "I" and claim to be Inquisitor von Mustobey.

IIRC when all hell breaks loose in that one city because like 2 dozen alpha psykers escape, Eisenhorn busts into a room police style and yells "Inquisition!!!" civilians actually cry and faint and stuff. It's been a long time since I read it too but I seem to recall that happening a couple times. He does use his rosarius thing like a cop uses a badge too.

Basically, I think the Imperial Inquisition is as well known (and same rep) as the Spanish Inquisition was in Spain.

Manchu wrote:I guess my concern is that anyone could pull out a piece of metal in the shape of an "I" and claim to be Inquisitor von Mustobey.

I don't remember exactly, but those "I" contain something that's proof of their inquisitorial office... something like a piece of the Emperors armor... or the the equivalent of a smartcard.

aka_mythos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then I must be getting wires crossed remembering a fandex and Andy Chambers talking about things they'd wanted to do for the Arbites.

That was written by Tim Huckleberry... the Citadel Journal issue 29 was all that Andy Chambers wrote on them for 40k. Mr. Huckleberry in my opinion did the Arbites a great disservice. He wrote a list that largely ignored the fluff and is responsible for alot of the confussion about the Adeptus Arbites. He treated the Adeptus Arbites as local police... thats what "Enforcers" are... and so his list used a lot of light IG weapons and water cannons, suppressing and debilitating weapons. His list was never official, his fluff was never official; he's just given a lot of credit because at the time he was one of the few people at GW who cared enought about the Arbites, but he was only a play tester and Citadel Journal contributer and not a designer. So his personal fandexes were some how elevated to some intermediate level of acceptability.

I still say that Sentinels for them isn't too unbelievable. Sentinels are supposedly pretty common throughout the Imperium and wouldn't make a bad weapons platform.

But after seeing the name Huckleberry it shook some wires loose. I remembered it from one of the articles he did for Black Gobbo and showed different little 'background forces' on the tabletop via doctrines for the Guard. He did one for Blood Pact, Tech-Guard, Volpones, Genestealer Cult, and Arbites.

Adeptus Arbites are really more heavy handed part FBI part secret police. No doubt they'd be present in taking charge of enforcers in a major incident, but a paramilitary force that is described as being able to selectively engage and take out planetary defence forces that have gone rogue wouldn't bother with water cannons. Even if they did have water cannons, who would want to bring that to fight off tyranid hordes. Does the Imperium's paramilitant authoritarian hand that enforces the laws and dictates of the High Lords of Terra and the Emperor on civilized worlds in this grim dark future sound like the type that would bring waterguns to a battle?

That depends. Are we fighting firemonsters?

But yeah. I think it'd be a mistake if we saw the return of the Water Cannon Repressor.

I think the arbites should be in there as much as the SoB are. The Arbites have the job of putting down riots or defeating uprisings, these will make up most of an ordo hereticus inquisitors battles. SoB are wasted when your fighting hordes of cultists or civilians.

While SoB are used they are still the force of the ecclesiarchy rather than the inquisition and so are harder for the inquisition to command. The arbites are much more common and will listen to an Inquisitor without question. They have a faster response time as they are already present on most planets. They fulfil the ordo hereticus needs perfectly in most situations.

While I want SoB to stay I want arbites to have as much of a place. Imo you should be able to take a force of either.

I think Arbites also serve a fluff appropriate way to give SoB a second troop choice without inventing a new unit that would effectively serve the same purpose. Who knows, GW may just say build them using the "Henchmen" unit entry.

Kanluwen wrote:I still say that Sentinels for them isn't too unbelievable. Sentinels are supposedly pretty common throughout the Imperium and wouldn't make a bad weapons platform.

But after seeing the name Huckleberry it shook some wires loose. I remembered it from one of the articles he did for Black Gobbo and showed different little 'background forces' on the tabletop via doctrines for the Guard. He did one for Blood Pact, Tech-Guard, Volpones, Genestealer Cult, and Arbites.

I agree sorta, I think a Sentinel like vehicle is appropriate. There just isn't anything really established. So going off their nature, I'd tend to think a Arbite "sentinel" would be geared more towards its urban use. At the time there was only the lighter version of the sentinel, but I think the Arbites would maybe only use the heavier enclosed version or something in that vein, since they wouldn't tend to need them as scouts.

Manchu wrote:This is not what the codices and novels say, however . . .

Yes it is. Knowing OF the Inquisition is not the same as knowing ABOUT them.

I know OF a large number of SOCOM units in that I know they exist and I know their names as they are given to the public. I don't know much ABOUT them, as they're rather secretive (the Inquisition more of course, but this is as good an example as I can get) and hide the details of their functions from the public eye.

Manchu wrote:I guess my concern is that anyone could pull out a piece of metal in the shape of an "I" and claim to be Inquisitor von Mustobey.

It's got some weird holographic projection thing that's all fancy. Still your point remains, somebody with the right stuff could make a holographic projection thingamabob but I guess my response would be don't we have the same problem in real life? If a cop flashed his badge at me I would say "well, I guess he's a cop" because I don't really know what a police badge looks like. Its probably even a bigger problem in America where you guys don't even have a nationalized police force excluding FBI. I don't doubt there are people going around masquerading as Inquisitors. In one of the DH books one of the Inquisitor characters isn't even a real Inquisitor she's just a really rich person.

As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.

The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.

The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.

Sweet. Got a cyber-dog?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As a sidenote: I was pleasantly surprised to go and get the mail and there was...a package from GW.

The Arbites Enforcer Patrol Team has arrived, and there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.

Sweet. Got a cyber-dog?

Indeed. He's part of the box, no matter what, apparently.

aka_mythos wrote:... something like a piece of the Emperors armor... or the the equivalent of a smartcard.

Hilarious!

In DH, one of the main points is that the Acolytes will get nowhere by running around screaming "Inquisition! Freeze, punks!" I doubt an acolyte could pawn off some violation of the Lex Imperialias by saying "the Inquisitor made me do it." No Arbitrator would leave it at that.




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Kanluwen wrote:. . . there's apparently a really awesome variant Judge included. Wears a stormcoat, has the full armour on, etc.

Please post a pic here ASAP.

He's got various weapon options, I'm thinking I'll go with bolt pistol in one hand and grenade in the other though. Hard to photograph metal well though.

He looks awesome!

The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.

But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.

Kanluwen wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.

But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.

So would you support a separate Codex: Arbites?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.

But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.

So would you support a separate Codex: Arbites?

No. But I won't support a Mechanicus or Crimson Fists codex by that same logic.

If people really want them: there should be campaign rules sets that include such things. Move away from this perception that codices are just for tournament gamers.

Bah! You're no fun. I want them all! More Codexes!: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/301764.page

Arbites don't stand a chance against Mechanicum in terms of what the people want -- even I voted for Mechanicum in that thread.

What's more important here? Getting Arbites models or Arbites rules? I think that's a simple question. In fact, one could also say, would you rather have new rules for Sisters or new models. Maybe that's a less simple question for some people. For me, the answer is always models. Rules take nothing like the time and effort GW spends to get a great concept reduced to a sculpt and in production. If someone said, "okay here are the new Sisters models but you'll have to wait another year for the rules" I would have stopped listening at "but."

With decent models, I'd be more than happy to try these counts-as ideas. Frankly, I'd be motivated to write my own fandex or even use BOLS's. (Of course, without rules that require options, any new Arbites models might be as static and unimpressive as the current ones.)

But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.

I don't think that including Arbites could possibly water down Sisters fluff. It would, however, limit the number of model kits with power-armored ladies. Fine by me. The last thing that book needs to have is SoB in every single choice in every single slot.

Manchu wrote:Arbites don't stand a chance against Mechanicum in terms of what the people want -- even I voted for Mechanicum in that thread.

What's more important here? Getting Arbites models or Arbites rules? I think that's a simple question. In fact, one could also say, would you rather have new rules for Sisters or new models. Maybe that's a less simple question for some people. For me, the answer is always models. Rules take nothing like the time and effort GW spends to get a great concept reduced to a sculpt and in production. If someone said, "okay here are the new Sisters models but you'll have to wait another year for the rules" I would have stopped listening at "but."

With decent models, I'd be more than happy to try these counts-as ideas. Frankly, I'd be motivated to write my own fandex or even use BOLS's. (Of course, without rules that require options, any new Arbites models might be as static and unimpressive as the current ones.)

But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.

I don't think that including Arbites could possibly water down Sisters fluff. It would, however, limit the number of model kits with power-armored ladies. Fine by me. The last thing that book needs to have is SoB in every single choice in every single slot.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what's more important, the paper or the plastic. It's true models are important to really establish an army. A ruleset without models will soon wither away. However, most of us have declared the background to be very important to our enjoyment of 40K too. For example Kan's actually got some models but he can't really use them. It's the rules and background that get the 'ole imagination churning. Either way Arbites need both!

Wait you don't want an SoB unit for every FOC slot in the SoB codex? But it's their codex....

Manchu wrote:In fact, one could also say, would you rather have new rules for Sisters or new models.

Both.

If I absolutely HAD to choose, models, because I'm tired of the same old expensive hard to paint metal clone models from second edition.

Manchu wrote:
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.

You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:
But I reckon that if Arbites are going to get any models at all, they've got to have rules in a dex. Nothing is deader than GW's specialist lines. The very best we could hope for is a boardgame and I'd also give that a 0% chance. Codex it must must must be. And the only possible codex these guys make any sense in is a Sisters book, for all the reasons given above.

You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.

And possibly other controversial 3rd party model makers...

Okay first: Yes, I also want both rules and models for Sisters. I'm not saying rules aren't important. But converting Guardsmen would not be very satisfying -- at least until I get much, much better at converting or just learn to do my own GS sculpting and model production. But, as so many of you have redundantly pointed out, there are "rules" for Arbites currently in C:WH. And there are also other ways to proxy their stuff or, among friends, to write/use a fandex. As such, Kanluwen can certainly use his new models in games.

Second, the Arbites already have fluff. Undoubtedly, a whole codex devoted to them would really sharpen and expand that fluff. But it's not like being part of another codex wouldn't also do that -- especially when the alternative is to be so neglected that people who otherwise know a lot about 40k think Arbites are just cops.

I've never proposed that Arbites should have their own book. At most, I think they could use having an option to build all Arbites armies, even if they aren't actually competitive.

Now, on to your other question: SoB as every choice? No, that's no good. That's like having a Femarine dex. for example, do I want to see Sororitas on bikes? No way! That's totally out of character for them -- it's never happened at all in any fluff source as far as I know. But I would like to see bikes in the book if Arbites are riding them. If every single choice in the book is just another lady in power armor (looking at you, Dominions) we'll end up with a pretty boring book. I'm guessing this is where the weird backpacks Interceptor Squads came from, by the way. That's not something I'd like to see happen to Sororitas. They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation. They're also not some extremely rare group but closer to the everyday fabric of grimdark life than any other faction. To represent the Imperium at large, especially its inescapable religiousity, they need to be mixed in with other Imperial units -- penitent engines, arco flagellants, priests . . . and, I really hope, Arbites.


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Kanluwen wrote:You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.

Is this something they've actually talked about?

I really, really, really love the idea of a Space Hulk-like Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game. But I'd still rather have both options available in 40k somehow.

Manchu wrote:
They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation.

I hearby summon The Melissia!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dissapointed by lack of Melissia rebuttal. Must be the new avatar.
Anyways, Background-wise there's no reason for Arbites to be in a SoB 'dex. In fact, sometimes they may be the ones policing an The Ecclesiarchy when it steps over the line. But I'll take Arbites in there anyway because its better than nothing.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You're leaving out Forge World. Arbites seem like something we'll see from them at some point when they finally get to do their Cult army book.

Is this something they've actually talked about?

I really, really, really love the idea of a Space Hulk-like Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game. But I'd still rather have both options available in 40k somehow.

I don't think they were going to do a "Genestealer Cult v. Arbites game" but supposedly it was going to be part of the follow-up to "Raid on Kastorel-Novem" which was sidelined in favor of doing the Badab War.

Civilian rabble starting up all kinds of shenanigans and Arbites as part of the make-up of the Inquisition/Elysian forces present from what I recall of them talking about.

Where I can see Arbites coming up though? I've "heard from a friend" who works at Forge World that they've batted about ideas for a "Battle of Cadia" book, detailing the war on the ground during the 13th Black Crusade.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:
They are not an organization meant to be ready for every possible combat situation.

I hearby summon The Melissia!

Meh. They aren't. But only because GW's current incarnation of them is incompetently written with poor rules and low amounts of choices. Yes, I know that's what third edition was. Doesn't change anything because we STILL have to use that codex to play these days.