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@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine. Sisters on bikes or in land speeders or walking around in Dreadknight-like exosuits doesn't really suit. I used to be very anti-freaks when it came to wishlisting Sisters but now I see that this is one aspect where they have a significant edge over the humdrum, everything's pretty well the same SM lines. As M has often says, one of the things that makes Sisters cool is that they are just regular humans. I like to extrapolate that out to the idea that, as I said, they are a more widespread aspect of life in the late 41st millennium than any other faction and that the rest of their book should incorporate this distinction as vibrantly as possible (while they, not the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition, retain the spotlight, of course).

@Kan: That Cadian release doesn't seem very fertile for Arbites, TBH. Every IA release is about a "war on the ground" somewhere and many of those places have been Imperial worlds that would have had an Arbites presence. I'm not sure that it being Cadia would increase that possibility but perhaps you can enlighten me.

Manchu wrote:@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine. Sisters on bikes or in land speeders or walking around in Dreadknight-like exosuits doesn't really suit. I used to be very anti-freaks when it came to wishlisting Sisters but now I see that this is one aspect where they have a significant edge over the humdrum, everything's pretty well the same SM lines. As M has often says, one of the things that makes Sisters cool is that they are just regular humans. I like to extrapolate that out to the idea that, as I said, they are a more widespread aspect of life in the late 41st millennium than any other faction and that the rest of their book should incorporate this distinction as vibrantly as possible (while they, not the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition, retain the spotlight, of course).

Ehhhh. They're not really that widespread of a thing by all accounts though.
They're more common than Marines, but still not that common. Most citizenry would know about the Sisters through interacting with organizations like the Order Hospitalier, don't you think?

@Kan: That Cadian release doesn't seem very fertile for Arbites, TBH. Every IA release is about a "war on the ground" somewhere and many of those places have been Imperial worlds that would have had an Arbites presence. I'm not sure that it being Cadia would increase that possibility but perhaps you can enlighten me.

Most of the IA books have been about ground wars once things have already broken down.
Part of what makes a Cadian campaign book so much more likely is how suddenly the 13th Black Crusade happened. The Arbites and Cadian Shock were on the ground from the start. In the Taros campaign book, which might have worked for it, the Arbites were definitely present--but they were killed off by the slave labor after the First Taros Intervention. Anphelion had no Arbites presence because it was a 'secret Mechanicus' facility.
Vraks seemingly had no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.

Fine, I'll defend them a bit. They're heavy infantry with access to armour. They should be able to handle just about any battlefield situation except a long range artillery duel but they're hardly the only faction with that limitation.
Rules-wise they already do have something for every slot. Normal Sisters, Flying Sisters, Sisters-with-bigger-guns than the other sisters etc. Don't see the need to get rid of any of those. I know what you mean about them becoming like Space Marines where it's really just all Space Marines all the time but that's what some people want: Fem-Marines.

Kanluwen wrote:Ehhhh. They're not really that widespread of a thing by all accounts though.
They're more common than Marines, but still not that common. Most citizenry would know about the Sisters through interacting with organizations like the Order Hospitalier, don't you think?

We don't know from C:WH. DH makes them see far more common. Let's say that something like .000000001% of the Imperial citizenry are ever on the same planet as a Space Marine. I would say that the equivalent percentage relative to Sisters is something like .001%. I'm just throwing arbitrary numbers around here, of course, but you can see that even if only tiny percentages of the citizenry are likely to have anything to do with either group, they are far far far far far far more likely to come across Sisters than Space Marines.

. . . no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.

I think this is likely to be the case in the Cadian book, if/when it comes around.

Not neccessarily. The last specific mention of SoB numbers is 30,000.

Manchu wrote:

. . . no Arbites presence or they were butchered 'off-screen', with the same thing happening in IA9+10.

I think this is likely to be the case in the Cadian book, if/when it comes around.

Considering the 13th Black Crusade book from Black Library shortly after the campaign makes allusions to the Arbites playing a relatively important role in maintaining the overall security of the Cadian Kasrs, I'd say they're likely to be in it.

I'm surprised Cadia even has Arbites Precints. That's the one planet that doesn't need Arbites.

Sure they do, citizen. Every planet is subject to the Lex Imperialis.

Manchu wrote:@KC, M: There's no need for them to be more like SM by having a power-armored unit for every occasion. Having at least one or two Sisters choices for each FOC slot is perfectly fine.

No, that's boring.

A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal. A wide variety, showing the variety within the Imperial Cult itself.

Melissia wrote:No, that's boring.

A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal. A wide variety, showing the variety within the Imperial Cult itself.

Melissia wrote:A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units including special characters would be ideal.

Melissia wrote:A codex with thirty different Sisters of Battle units.

Melissia wrote:thirty different Sisters of Battle units.

Melissia wrote:thirty

No, really? We get it, you like them and the background... But, thirty? Either you're joking or I don't know what... There are different orders, and nuances and whatever... But for codex purposes? I doubt even in a REAL army there are that many ACTUAL differences in combat units. After all the units in the codex just represent that... Not the complexities of each order, army, platoon, whatever, just their average statistics and combat use...

Also, I'd brace myself... With a new codex you could end up with something so different from the SoB you know and love that you'd regret ever wanting something different...

I quite mean thirty in a completely serious fashion. In fact, my own fan-made codex aimed for that number, although that also includes one Ecclesiarchy unit per FoC slot. Given six special characters, this is quite easily done. For example:

Imperial Guard: Well over 30 units, not including special characters.
Space Marines: Over thirty units, not including special characters.
Space Wolves: Over thirty units, including special characters.
Blood Angels: Thirty units without special characters.
Tyranids: Over thirty units including special characters.
Orks: Over thirty units including special characters.
Eldar: Over thirty units including special characters.
Chaos Space Marines: Over thirty units including special characters.
Chaos Daemons: Over thirty units including special characters.

I guess I didn't really count some units as separate... Like dreads and ven dreads or normal termies and assault termies and other things like that...

But in that way around 30 units is kinda the right number...

Gk codex actually falls a little short on that unless you count each single henchmen option as a "unit"...

Right, I also included variations in that count. Because variations on a unit are also choices on that unit. Such as a baal predator versus a normal predator-- heck they even take different slots.

Nothing is gonna beat Guard's variation, mind, but at least it can be better than what we have now.

I have to disagree. For example, one Sisters troop choice -- i.e., Battle Sisters -- is enough. We don't need Battle Sister Scouts or anything like that. A second troop choice should be non-sisters, whether that's Frateris Militia or Arbitrators. I don't want to turn this thread into a conversation about your fandex, M, but I don't think your various types of Sisters meshes well with what's already been developed by Citadel. It does make one point pretty clearly, however: if GW wants more Sisters units for a Sisters dex, it's going to have to make them up a la Interceptors, Purifiers, and Paladins. Frankly, that may be suitable for the GK but I think it'd be awfully boring both in terms of theme and models for the Sisters. This book is a chance to look at a larger swath of the Imperium. It'd be a paltry waste if all that came out of it were Sisters in Terminator armor and the like.

Manchu wrote:I have to disagree. For example, one Sisters troop choice -- i.e., Battle Sisters -- is enough.

I disagree. It's not enough. Even if it is merely the option to take, say, Celestians as troops, Sisters need MORE options, not less.

We don't need Battle Sister Scouts or anything like that.

Novitiates could be fun. Heck they wouldn't even have to be in carapace, they could be in power armor (novitiates in the Cain books had power armor) and merely be recent or soon to be graduates earning their baptism of fire.

A second troop choice should be non-sisters

I concur with this! We need frateris militia for a Sisters army to truly work . After all, Sisters are frequently supported by the masses of the faithful in battle.

I don't think your various types of Sisters meshes well with what's already been developed by Citadel.

That's because what's already been developed at citadel is hideously lacking in actual substance.

It does make one point pretty clearly, however: if GW wants more Sisters units for a Sisters dex, it's going to have to make them up a la Interceptors, Purifiers, and Paladins. Frankly, that may be suitable for the GK but I think it'd be awfully boring both in terms of theme and models for the Sisters.

Hell no, it's be fething AWESOME. Sisters don't need to be sidelined, they need to steal the damn show, start kicking ass and taking names for ONCE in GW's history! I want to see fluff about an army of Sisters utterly demolishing an entire chapter of Marines. Hell at this point I'd even be willing to put up with Wardisms to make Sisters no longer the scratching post at the ass-end of the 40k continuum.

This book is a chance to look at a larger swath of the Imperium. It'd be a paltry waste if all that came out of it were Sisters in Terminator armor and the like.

Bah, who needs terminator armor when you can have other types of heavy armor? For example, a larger piece of assault armor, not quite at the level of a dreadknight, just a head or two larger than normal power armor-- with the Sister encased entirely inside, using the armor as a linebreaker in an assault, maintaining her normal agility in combat while increasing her strength. It doesn't have to be terminator armor-- it should be something that doesn't really exist in other Imperial army.

I wasn't really talking about less options. Even Dominions have their place although I'm not convinced it's in the Fast Attack FOC slot.

Melissia wrote:Novitiates could be fun. Heck they wouldn't even have to be in carapace, they could be in power armor (novitiates in the Cain books had power armor) and merely be recent or soon to be graduates earning their baptism of fire.

I think what you've actually done there is made a very convincing argument as to why initiates do not need to be a separate unit from Sisters of Battle troop squads.

Bah, who needs terminator armor when you can have other types of heavy armor? For example, a larger piece of assault armor, not quite at the level of a dreadknight, just a head or two larger than normal power armor-- with the Sister encased entirely inside, using the armor as a linebreaker in an assault, maintaining her normal agility in combat while increasing her strength. It doesn't have to be terminator armor-- it should be something that doesn't really exist in other Imperial army.

Alright, you've described a Terminator by any other name/shape. It's really going to be tough to sell heavy-armored SoBs as anything except Feminators. And that's Marine territory -- bug bulky, humanity-hiding armor. The Sisters need to be clearly human (as frail in all but faith as a Guardsman) to retain their best feature, their personality. Repentia would fill this roll so much better. Think of them as armored in their faith.

Here's some wishlisting for you that gets around to the substance of this thread:

HQ
- Canoness
- Adeptus Arbites Marshall
- Ministorum Hiearch
- Ministorum Orators (join squads, do not take slots)
- Ordo Minoris Sororita: Dialogus, Hopitaler, & Famulous (join squads, do not take slots)
- Saint Celestine
- First Sister SC (unlocks either Celestians or Dominions as troops)
- Second Sister SC (something with Repentia would be cool)
- Judge SC (unlocks Arbitrators as troops)
- Witchfinder SC (unlocks arcoflagellants as troops)

Elites
- Celestian Squad & Palatine*
- Repentia & Mistress
- Arbitrator Patrol Squad & Proctor (w/Cyber Mastiffs)
- Arcoflagellant Gang & Penitentiary

Troops
- Sisters of Battle Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Frateris Militia Mob (no sergeant upgrade)

Fast Attack
- Seraphim Squad & Veteran Superior
- Dominions Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Aribtrator Bike Squad & Proctor
- Arbitrator Riot Sentinel Squad

Heavy Support
- Retributors Squad & Veteran Superior*
- Rhino
- Supressor^
- Penitent Engine
- Exorcist^
- Black Maria^

* = all from the same new plastic Sisters squad kit (just like GK and SW)
^ = all from one vehicle kit upon Sisters release (kind of like a Rhino-based Leman Russ)

As you can see, there are three strands in the army: Sororitas, Ecclesiarchy, and Arbites. The Sisters are the backbone, having at least one choice in every slot. Ecclesiarchy are next, only missing a Fast Attack choice and doesn't really have a vehicle-- which makes sense for an organization that is not allowed to have a standing army (other than the Sisters). And the Arbites have no troops choice, as they are presumably a morespecialized fighting force. This wishlist also leaves some room for whatever GW might dream up. We know that at least a few things will be completely novel and there's not much point making them up ourselves.

Manchu wrote:Alright, you've described a Terminator by any other name/shape. It's really going to be tough to sell heavy-armored SoBs as anything except Feminators.

To you, but I have better imagination

Repentia would fill this roll so much better. Think of them as armored in their faith.

Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff, I prefer not to think about them.

To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.

Kanluwen wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.

But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.

I am a very big fan of Arbites, I think they deserve being fleshed out but honestly they aren't worth their own full codex Its really a matter of Arbite garrisons not fitting the scope of full out war. There just isn't a good way to make them competitive and true to their fluff without relying on another army. Even when you go back to citadel journal 29 all that did was divide Arbites by available models and calling those units... yeah we got bikes and a riot squad, but all that ignores that at their origins is a single highly flexible squad. Just like henchmen in GK, Arbites can serve as that elternaive troop choice.

Melissia wrote:To you, but I have better imagination

If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads then we'll have to agree to disagree about who has the better imagination.

Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff . . .

Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!

aka_mythos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Enforcers have been available since about 2004... why are we talking about them? But yes he does look awesome.

I got a box free from GW, it cropped up during the thread, and I've since dragged it a bit OT with the photo.

But yeah. I'm still not sold on them being in SoB, but that's more because I'd rather see a lot more care taken to flesh out the 'background' forces rather than just mashing them into books.

I am a very big fan of Arbites, I think they deserve being fleshed out but honestly they aren't worth their own full codex Its really a matter of Arbite garrisons not fitting the scope of full out war. There just isn't a good way to make them competitive and true to their fluff without relying on another army. Even when you go back to citadel journal 29 all that did was divide Arbites by available models and calling those units... yeah we got bikes and a riot squad, but all that ignores that at their origins is a single highly flexible squad. Just like henchmen in GK, Arbites can serve as that elternaive troop choice.

Which is why I'm thinkin' the best place is as part of a campaign. Say if the Imperial player 'wins' and secures an area with an Arbites garrison within--then the next mission afterwards he gets an Arbites Kill-Team that gives him bonuses for difficult terrain tests or things like that.

Melissia wrote:To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.

By contrast, the rhyme and reason are obvious to me: the forces of Imperial Faith and Justice. What I don't want the Sisters book to be is more MEQ. if it's only 60% power armor, that is more than enough.

Manchu wrote:If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.

One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.

Essentially, rather than being slow and ponderous weapon platforms like terminator armor, the armor would be a vicious assault platform, but without any ranged firepower, and with a distinct and different visual design that meshes more with the Sororitas theme than the Astartes one.

Manchu wrote:Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!

No it doesn't.

Repentia are sisters that have had a nervous breakdown and are basically severely depressed and masochistic. They go around wearing nothing but flimsy pieces of cloth, and basically try to get themselves killed. Because you know, them crazy womenfolk can't possibly be warriors without frequently having nervous breakdowns because they're violating their maternal instincts.


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Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:To me, the army list you posted is very disjointed and incoherent. It's basically something you'd expect to have two codices for, but instead it's all mashed together without much rhyme or reason.

By contrast, the rhyme and reason are obvious to me: the forces of Imperial Faith and Justice. What I don't want the Sisters book to be is more MEQ. if it's only 60% power armor, that is more than enough.

They aren't MEQ. The fandex I posted isn't MEQ. It's Sisters. Everything in there is Sisters stuff, using their fluff as a basis.

Repentia are not the products of nervous breakdowns. Their motivation has nothing at all to do with their gender. You have completely misunderstood them.

The Terminatrix concept doesn't make any sense to me: they have bullkier, heavier armor but they are faster and more agile? Ok. I mean, anything's possible in a fictional setting. But this isn't based on anything currently established as SoB fluff. Like your fandex, this is a Sisters of Melissa idea not a Sisters of Battle idea.

"A pair of Eviscerators" as Chainfists? Really? Huge friggin' swords as "Chainfists"? "It's like Terminator armour, but no ranged firepower so it's sorta fast"?

At most, what we should see for a 'heavy' unit of Sisters is Artificer Armor. It's the same save, has none of the bonuses you mentioned--and most of all it doesn't have to be some crazy invention plopping up out of nowhere.

Also: whoa @ the complete misunderstanding of Repentia. I haven't looked at the book in a long time, but aren't they more about "crisis of faith" instead of "dem crazy womenfolk left da kitchen and plum gone nutters!"?

Biker Sisters aren't part of "their fluff". Nor are Scouty Sisters and Sniper Sisters.

'Scout' role should be relegated to Frateris Militia, and snipers really just should either be former Guardsmen who've 'dedicated themselves' to working for the Ecclesiarchy or just not be in there.

Manchu wrote:Repentia are not the products of nervous breakdowns. Their motivation has nothing at all to do with their gender. You have completely misunderstood them.

No, I don't think I have. Everything described about the Sisters Repentia points towards them basically joining because of a mental disorder which is driven by a mixture of depression and obsession/compulsion disorders. They obsess over every single mistake and flaw, whether real or imagined (punishing themselves over, and I quote, "the smallest imagined transgression"), and loathe themselves, desiring death because they are failures in life.

The Terminatrix concept doesn't make any sense to me

That's because you're stuck in the "all hgeavy armor is terminator armor" mindset...

Of course this isn't based in current Sisters canon. Current Sisters canon is basically nonexistent as far as actual substance goes.


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Kanluwen wrote:Biker Sisters aren't part of "their fluff". Nor are Scouty Sisters and Sniper Sisters.

That's because the Sisters basically don't have any fluff to begin with. They NEED expanded fluff.

Other Sisters pity the Repentia because their outward physical lives are defined by pain and deprivation. But they also revere the Repentia because they have rationally answered this "higher calling" of transcendence via penance. The inner spiritual lives of the Repentia cannot be compared to a "nervous breakdown" in any but the most superficial sense, and even that implies a misunderstanding.

That's not how C:WH delivers its description.

Sure they're revered for their devotion and all, but they're also described as nuking futs with tons of OCD and mental problems, which very disturbingly remind me of various sexist literature I've read.


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At any rate, we're veering waaaay off topic now, so I'm gonna drop this. But still...

Melissia wrote:Current Sisters canon is basically nonexistent as far as actual substance goes.

Sometimes I wonder what you even like about them. In the case of Repentia, you clearly don't understand what makes them tick. They're not crazy. Their faith is so strong that they judge even an imagined doubt as a slippery slope into heresy. That is what they're about. They're members of a religious order first and warriors second. If you just want woman commandos, you'll be better off buying some female heads for your IG models.


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Melissia wrote:That's not how C:WH delivers its description.

Yes, it very much does. In fact, it begins by saying that the Repentia attain a state of grace that many aim for but few achieve. Blood of Martyrs contains the same kind of language.

Manchu wrote:Sometimes I wonder what you even like about them.

I think this line describes it best:

"[The Adepta Sororitas] are shining examples of all that is good about humanity."

Me being, at heart, an optimist (as weird as it sounds) in love with the literary idea of a hero/heroine struggling against evil (I do like superhero stories after all, traditional ones instead of anti-heroes)-- even if they do not always (or ever) succeed-- and generally doing everything they can to make the world/galaxy/universe a better place. The idea that this is what the Sisters are resonates with my taste in stories-- the trials they face are about doing the thing... and finding out what exactly this means in the darkness of 40k.
7
This compared to the rest of humanity, whom are basically doing nothing more than struggling to resist temptation, even the Marines... to the point where, in the 40k setting, it's almost a bit banal of a storyline. In comparison, Sisters take it a step further, sacrificing themselves in service to humanity, refusing to bow to the evils of chaos and trying to do more than merely perpetuate the status quo, trying to spread the light to the furthest corners of the galaxy, and to destroy that which would rend the Imperium in twain from within.

They don't always succeed. This being 40k, sometimes they fail at their mission, sometimes they're tricked into doing the wrong thing, sometimes they just make honest or even stupid mistakes, being merely human. But they don't give in, and they don't stop trying to bring light to the darkness. Silly as it sounds, that one statement defines what Sisters are to me.

Well, we can agree on one thing for sure: in their new book, they should get to take on and beat the ever-loving gak out of some Marines.