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So this is actually a three- or four-part question and formatting your answers may help the quality of discussion.

(1) Do Adeptus Arbites belong in the Sisters Book? Distinguish this from whether you want them in the book.

(2) Why/why not, according to fluff/marketing reasons?

(3) Why/why not, according to rules reasons?

(4) If you do think they belong, should there be an all-Arbites army option?

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As for my answers:

(1) Yes, I want them in the book. I'm not sure if they should be, however.

(2) Fluff-wise, I'm looking at what happened between Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Grey Knights. As predicted, the GK stole the spotlight from the Inquisitors. I think it's safe to assume that the same will happen with the Sisters. I think there is now some question as to whether Inquisitors will even be present in a new Sisters dex (at least, relative to there having been no question whatsoever about this pre-Codex: Grey Knights). If the GK book was GK + Inq rather than "Ordo Malleus" then one wonders whether a Sisters dex will really be Sisters + Inq. On one hand, redundancy seems wasteful. On the other hand, two words: Space Marines. The rumormill hints that the Sisters book will see a heavy focus on the Ecclesiarchy, which is roundly welcomed by the fans. In other words, this could be a "rest of the Imperium (except Mechanicum)" book and in that case, it's the only place Arbites are likely to appear at all.

(3) Here's the difficult part: where would they fit rules-wise? When I think of Arbites, I think shotgun + shock/power maul. So how does that work with an army that already has bolters and eviscerators? It's hard for me to think of a role that really needs filling in a potential Sisters list that Arbites would logically fit. Any thoughts? Nearest I can think of is to have them as an elites tarpit specialist (riot shields) and maybe a fast attack biker option.

(4) If they do make it in, I'd dearly love a special character ("High Marshall Grimm" or somesuch) that let's you take Arbites as troops if they are not already a troops choice.

And finally, some will undoubtedly argue that one can already field an arbites army by proxying Inquisitorial henchmen or IG. Personally, I don't think either is a good option.

1) They belong, if the codex contains more than just the sisters themselves.

2) Arbites are the Police force. Still have to oppose those who turn from the IoM, and could be the local part of a force of imperials.
Won't have heavy weapons, but fast vehicles and anti-riot gear.

3) If there is a place at all for them, it is as supportive. ( like certain squads in IG ). Maybe as a blocking unit.
So rather a squad and maybe a upgrade character. Could slow down opponents depending on equipment.
Plus given fast transports, they could grab objectives late in game.
Wargear: shotguns, shock mauls/shields, sniper rifle, grenade launcher.
Vehicles: 4wheeled fast transport and/or rhino. Extra armor, heavy stubbers.

4) No. Maybe an option to take as troops.

I would absolutely love an Adeptus Arbites Cities of Death Army. I can imagine them using Repressors as vehicles, or realistically something even lighter armoured and open topped, seeing as though they're supposed to be a police unit.

1hadhq wrote:Arbites are the Police force. Still have to oppose those who turn from the IoM, and could be the local part of a force of imperials.

Yes, from what I understand their presence helps to remind the governor of the Golden Throne. So when there is a planetary uprising, Arbitrators will almost always be the first line of loyalist action (along with Sisters, when present) other than PDF formations that remain loyal.

Why would you say they shouldn't have heavy weapons? Is that a fluff judgment or a rules consideration (i.e., duplicative of Retributors)?

1hadhq wrote:Vehicles: 4wheeled fast transport

sphynx wrote:. . . or realistically something even lighter armoured and open topped, seeing as though they're supposed to be a police unit.

Do you gentlemen mean something like this?



Granted, it needs to be "grimdark'd up" quite a lot. Frankly, I don't care about having Arbites-specific vehicles other than one thing:



(for more on Judge Minty, see here.)

I think they should have a choice between shock mauls and riot shotguns for basic equipment with 3 special weapons allowed, maybe not meltas or plasma guns, but special riot equipment and beefed up grenade launchers.

Also - The Riot Shotgun
S: 4 AP: -
Assault 3

Manchu wrote:

Why would you say they shouldn't have heavy weapons? Is that a fluff judgment or a rules consideration (i.e., duplicative of Retributors)?

- Arbites shouldn't duplicate sisters would be one point.
- Arbites mainly caring for "infantry" the other.
- Not seen heavy weapons in fluff ,except as defensive ones for their police stations.
- maybe a few heavys installed on vehicles.
- Maybe a nice variety of grenades to choose from, mines?

They do not belong in the book, nor do they even belong with Sisters.

I'd rather Arbites, as a whole, be left outside of the scope of 40k.

If people really, really, really just can't live without them:
Arbites Suppression Teams added to Guard or as a FW list.

There's no real reason for guys with riot gear to be on the tabletop.

If the Arbites are the cops as it were. Then I see no need for them to be represented in a war game. The cops are not equipped or trained as inf or mech-inf. The could if pressed be a townie resistance group but thats about it. Its kind of a waste of effort unless you want to drive your rhino over the street cruiser monster truck style. SWAT snipers are again as i see it as a hive defense unit but other than that no. The Arbites have about as much place as Miranda rights on the battlefield.

http://www.moronail.net/img/3916_rare-look-inside-a-can-of-whoop-ass

Perhaps in the same way that the Gk got a unit that represents all of the inquisitorial Henchmen, maybe there will be something similar in the Sisters of Battle book.


Most books these days have more than 1 troops option. With that in mind there may be an option for Humans in flak armor (Fraternus Millitia or something like that right?)

If that is the case, it would be very simple to say "a unit of Fraternus Millia can be upgraded to Adeptus Arbites by swapping their "whatever gun they have" for "Shotgun and Riot Shield" for x points a model. If this option is taken, then the squad leader can take a "shock maul or some other things" for y points.



I think the biggest question for the book right now is What units besides the Sisters will there be in the book? at the moment there are only 1-2 sister units for each FOC and tht is not enough to make an entire codex.

Zakiriel wrote:If the Arbites are the cops as it were. Then I see no need for them to be represented in a war game. The cops are not equipped or trained as inf or mech-inf.

This is a common misunderstanding of Arbites. They are probably the only organization besides the Ministorum that has a presence on nearly every planet in the Imperium. They police the planetary leadership as much as the rest of the population. Indeed, sometimes they are the only direct representatives of Terra on a planet. And given the size and power of hiver crime syndicates, they're jobs aren't too different from an urban combat specialist military unit. It's pretty well established that they have military-grade weapons and vehicles too.

Giving them a troops option of arbites with a special vehicle (or an HQ that unlocks them as troops as seems to be the trend) and/or having them be a fast attack unit with a free (not as good as a chimera) transport would work well I believe.

And arbites aren't cops. They are what the cops see as cops in a sense.

I believe the Arbites belong with the Inq. If it's just Sisters I would be surprised if they were in it. If they are in the next sisters codex with Inq I would love to see them developed more, with some HQ or elite plus fast attack units. Fluff wise it doesn't make sense for them to have lots of heavy support out side of crowd control devices so a full army list would have limits. I hope Arbites make it into the Codex though, I have too many Rhino's with flashing lights and don't want to have to roll them with Grey Knights. ( Judge Cortez! ) However, I don't foresee GW doing anything with the line. Plastic Arbites? I would love them but I don't see it happening.

Kanluwen wrote:There's no real reason for guys with riot gear to be on the tabletop.

First off, they would make no sense at all in a Guard book. As defenders of the Imperium againsy wayward humans (including witches) they make sense in an Ordo Hereticus book. Even in a Sisters + Ecclesiarchy book, where the focus is still inward, they could have a place. (I fully admit it's more tenuous. In fact, I don't think there is much of a chance for them at all for other reasons.) As for keeping riot shields off the table, I don't think you really understand the function of the Arbites in the Imperium.

1) I would want them in the book rather than not have them exist ever. I'd rather they had their own book.
2) Background-wise they don't. I don't see any relation to the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy. I really, really don't want them to become ecclesiarcal cronies. SoBs have that role filled
3) I want to see the infamous arbites cyber-matiff! Scourge of criminals everywhere.
4) yes and no. Like I said I'd rather they have their own book. I want to be able to make an adepts arbites army but I also feel the Sisters should be the star of their own book. Separation of the two forces is the best.

How could I forget the cybermastif? A mastif and Arbites handler unit would be an awesome elites choice.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's no real reason for guys with riot gear to be on the tabletop.

First off, they would make no sense at all in a Guard book. As defenders of the Imperium againsy wayward humans (including witches) they make sense in an Ordo Hereticus book. Even in a Sisters + Ecclesiarchy book, where the focus is still inward, they could have a place. (I fully admit it's more tenuous. In fact, I don't think there is much of a chance for them at all for other reasons.) As for keeping riot shields off the table, I don't think you really understand the function of the Arbites in the Imperium.

And I don't think you really understand the "Arbites" that people continually post that they want.

People seemingly aren't interested in fluffy Arbites who, by the by, would work perfectly fine in a Guard army...or at least the way that I would organize the Guard Codex. Arbites Kill-Teams/Suppression Teams as a kind of carapace armored close in down and dirty fight unit replacing Rough Riders for that role?

Yeah. That'd work. And it's not like there's no fluff for Arbites fighting alongside the Guard either. They just take on a different role when they fight alongside the PDF and Guard. They become more like pathfinders and guides, knowing the lay of their precint that they've been assigned to better than the Guard or the hastily called for PDF units.

I completely understand the function of Arbites in the Imperium. But the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.

That should clarify my position a bit better.

Throwing my 2 cents into the pot. I'm also going with a soft "no" on this one. One can make an arbites force with IG Vets with Shotguns. Fluff wise they'd fit more with the Inquisitors, and were acceptable when Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors were still with the Sisters. If Ordo Hereticus is not present in the new book (very likely), Arbites should go with them. If Inquisitors are present in the new Sisters book, then Arbites should definately remain, as Sisters are not as concerned about xeno matters, more with internal affairs compared to their SM and GK counterparts, so Arbites seems more synergistic. Rulewise though, they're more or less Vets with Carapace Armor and Shotguns, and wouldnt be that out of place in a Guard Army (reasoning that they're fighting on behalf of a local inquisitor).

Kanluwen wrote:the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.

*raises hand*

I totally want to see a representative Arbites force, bursting with shotguns, to go up against my Genestealer Cult :3

That said, they are more of a skirmish-level army, whereas a modern 40K battle represents the sort of military engagement that would be more likely to follow the overrunning of enforcers and PDF. However, given that we have cavalry somehow managing not to get mown down the second it leaves the stable, I think we've twisted the reality of industrial warfare enough to find room for a couple of 'survivors' of the cult uprising appearing in an Apocalypse game, counting as SM Scouts/IG STs/Vanguard Vets/etc.

Manchu wrote:How could I forget the cybermastif? A mastif and Arbites handler unit would be an awesome elites choice.

Totally. Also an Arbites 'dex could do for shotguns what SM did for bolters. We know almost a dozen different types of bolter shells and the shotgun is the Bolter of the arbiters. They even have bad-guy seeking buck! Also would like to see some sort of hurricane auto-shotgun. Still S3 but assault 4 like a baby splinter cannon.

For those who think arbitus are just cops: yes, they're cops the kind of cops you find in a South American Junta. They're a paramilitary organization. The adeptus arbites precinct being the last hundred loyalists holding out against millions of rebels in a world gone mad is a common 40k trope.

The grand poobah of the Arbites enjoys a permanent seat on the High Lords of Terra as is appropriate for the importance of his organization. Something not even the Astartes can claim.

No, but thats only becouse I think they should of been a limit 1 Elite IG unit. They would join a IG force, when there planet is under full scale invasion.

lindsay40k wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:the kinds of people clamoring for the Arbites don't want a stormtrooper look-alike. They want guys with riot shields and batons so they can make the Gajillionth Riot Police Battalion.

*raises hand*

I totally want to see a representative Arbites force, bursting with shotguns, to go up against my Genestealer Cult :3

That said, they are more of a skirmish-level army, whereas a modern 40K battle represents the sort of military engagement that would be more likely to follow the overrunning of enforcers and PDF. However, given that we have cavalry somehow managing not to get mown down the second it leaves the stable, I think we've twisted the reality of industrial warfare enough to find room for a couple of 'survivors' of the cult uprising appearing in an Apocalypse game, counting as SM Scouts/IG STs/Vanguard Vets/etc.

Which frankly is a fantastic idea for a new Specialist Game.

Arbites v. Cultists--Starring in "Bloodhive".

I think the Arbites should get their own book, they should be able to lead the penal battalions with explosive collars and bring back the bomb harness guys! Failing that they should be part of the next IG book, but still a separate army.

I thought the goal lately is to cut down on the number of books, not continually add books that are going to be 30 pages and take up months of development time?

Kanluwen wrote:I thought the goal lately is to cut down on the number of books, not continually add books that are going to be 30 pages and take up months of development time?

Whose goal? I think they need to release a large Imperial army book that would be like 3-4 codexes squashed together. Kind of like the old chaos books. There should also be only one loyalist marine book!

My hope would be that the Full size 6th edition rule book has some form of "kill team" rules. (small games of 500 or less points with more depth than a normal game)


With this, they could include rules for some of the smaller forces in the 40k universe that are simply just not right for a full codex or do not belong on a larger battlefield. This would give people some chance to make some fun models or use old ones that have been invalidated.

Examples:
Adeptus Arbites
Genstealer Cults
Adeptus Mechanus
Eldar Exodites
Demurig/squats
Hive Gangs

and so on...


For example the Arbites could be represented by just having rules for 4 units:

Elite: Sniper Team
Troop: Arbites with either Shotguns or Shield/Maul
Fast Attack: Cyber Mastiff unit
Transport: Whatever cop car thing they would use (repressor?)

One Elite, Troop, Fast attack and Dedicated tranport unit are all each of these forces would need. They are the only ones normally included in a Kill team.

Once the core rules for "Kill Team" are made, making a handful on units for a few forces would probably not take much time. Each Kill Team Force could be released as a PDF on the website or something.

svendrex wrote:My hope would be that the Full size 6th edition rule book has some form of "kill team" rules. (small games of 500 or less points with more depth than a normal game)


With this, they could include rules for some of the smaller forces in the 40k universe that are simply just not right for a full codex or do not belong on a larger battlefield. This would give people some chance to make some fun models or use old ones that have been invalidated.

Examples:
Adeptus Arbites
Genstealer Cults
Adeptus Mechanus
Eldar Exodites
Demurig/squats
Hive Gangs

and so on...


For example the Arbites could be represented by just having rules for 4 units:

Elite: Sniper Team
Troop: Arbites with either Shotguns or Shield/Maul
Fast Attack: Cyber Mastiff unit
Transport: Whatever cop car thing they would use (repressor?)

One Elite, Troop, Fast attack and Dedicated tranport unit are all each of these forces would need. They are the only ones normally included in a Kill team.

Once the core rules for "Kill Team" are made, making a handful on units for a few forces would probably not take much time. Each Kill Team Force could be released as a PDF on the website or something.

I agree, they don't warrant a Codex and they don't really belong with the SoB, but feth it they should be in the game. This is the most viable solution for not only the Arbites, but as you said other, smaller factions as well.

Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.

Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.

Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.

Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.

If that's all you're looking for, I believe the previous installation of Adeptus Arbites was as Storm Troopers with shotguns.

Maybe it's not the role you're looking for, but apparently it worked for the 4th edition C:SoB.

I'm thinking of unit called Arbitrators in the book itself with actual rules and models specific to them, rather than counts-as bait like henchmen and their previous iterations.

Manchu wrote:Ahem. Let's get back on topic. Arbites may not be the best fit for Sisters, you know, compared to having their own book, but C:SoB is the most likely place for them to show up if at all. (Again, the odds are against any Arbites, IMO.) These guys have no place in a Guard book, given that they have no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise. So the question remains: how could they fit into a SoB book? Personally, I'm more interested in a rules-based answer.

How can you say they have "no connections with the IG, thematically or otherwise" and then say that they "belong with the Sisters of Battle"?

The Arbites, period, don't belong on the battlefield if we really are going to find a reason for them to be around other than "because I would like them". It was a copout for Codex: Witchhunters to state that "Inquisitorial Stormtroopers could be used to represent Adeptus Arbites" because it diluted the theme of the Arbites to begin with.

Now, if they'd stated that it was to do something like Godwyn Fischig and "could be used to represent former Arbites who have joined an Inquisitor's retinue"--that's a different story and far more acceptable.

I should also point out that tying the Arbites with the Sisters is a fallacy. They were tied with the Inquisitorial elements, not the Ecclesiarchal elements(which is where we've been told the new SoB book is going with potential for there being pilgrims with guns in there).

Kan, Arbites with riot shields are still correct. Of course the riot shields of the 41st millineum would probably be more than a plastic square with hazard stripes. I'm not talking storm shields necessarily but something worthwhile against nasty Grimdark weapons.

You know what else is correct by all accounts?

Arbites Kill-Teams using boltguns, lasguns, heavy stubbers, etc with nary a 'riot shield' in sight.

I just don't see what role a shield and stick(notice: stick does not equal Thunder Hammer) would serve on a battlefield, with a carapace armor delivery system. I'll also point out that going off what info I've got readily available, the Arbites shields are regularly penetrated by anything stronger than autoguns.

At least with Kill-Teams as part of a Guard force you'd get some varying equipment and veteran skills that could be put to use--not to mention the potential for a themed PDF force with Arbites as part of a last ditch force.


But like I said. It would have to be part of my whole big reworked Codex system to really make it 'pop'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, I guess when it comes down to it:

I don't see a role for them in Codex: SoB. I don't really see a role period for them in 40k unless things are shuffled around alot.

I feel the same way about the Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus, at least in terms of them being "full forces" of their own.