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What about a Sisters of Silence? I'd bet money there will be no Arbites in the new 'dex but I'll be honestly dissappointed if they don't have an SoS unit.

We don't even know if Sisters of Silence still exist in 40k. They did in 30k, but there's absolutely no mention of them after the horus heresy.

Melissia wrote:This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.

One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.

So... a S4, T4, 2+, 5++ large model with a chainfist and a, likely, a bolt weapon? If it looks like a Terminator and quacks like a Terminator...

Yeah, I'd say Sisters of Silence have less of a chance to show up in any SoB book than Arbites.

Miraclefish wrote:

Melissia wrote:This is exactly what I was talking about when I said lack of imagination.

One does not have to have terminator armor to have heavy armor. I was thinking of something of a bulky, but more rounded style, perhaps with a pair of eviscerators mounted like chainfists. Not terminator armor, but rather, heavy assault armor specifically commissioned by the Ecclesiarchy for the Sisters, they wouldn't fit Marines even if they somehow got access to it. The armor's bulk is primarily in its artificial muscles, allowing it to be surprisingly fast for its size, as well as strong. It does not have relentless, as it's not designed to use heavy weapons, but it does grant the wearer increased strength and toughness (so S3(4) and T3(4) base) plus the 2+ save, possibly with an in-built refractor field at most (As that is something that is commonly manufactured, although a rosariusm might be more appropriate). Possibly no strength enhancement, but instead they can use eviscerators without any initiative penalty.

So... a S4, T4, 2+, 5++ large model with a chainfist and a, likely, a bolt weapon? If it looks like a Terminator and quacks like a Terminator...

Even without the bolt weapon, that looks a damn sight identical to Assault Terminators. In fact, it'd be a dual-chainfist terminator striking at initiative. With the "Feminator" armour increasing the strength to 4, I'd guess the chainfists would then double it to 8, so you have a beast of a sister that's identical to lightning claw terminators, but with str 8 + 2D6 penetration, instead of rerollable str 4.

You mean just like striking scorpions are just T3 footslogging assault marines right? Because as we know, everything is a marine expy. The Leman Russ is just a heavier version of the predator. The Chimera is a better armed version of the Rhino. A Carnifex is just a biological version of a dreadnought. Orks are just cheap marines with really bad aim and (basically) no armor. Pulse Rifles are just a slightly stronger boltgun stolen from Marines. Battlesuits are just tiny dreads. A Lord Commissar is just a cheap Captain. A Hellion is just riding a small land speeder. Battle Sisters are just inferior tactical marines. Lootas are just devastators with limited weapons options. Wraithlord is just a slender dread. Wave Serpent is just a hovering rhino. Lictors are just scouts made into monstrous creatures. Zoanthropes are librarians in tyranid form. Heralds of Khorne are daemon chaplains. Blah blah blah fething blah.

Damn do I want to kick someone in the face right now.

Melissia wrote:We don't even know if Sisters of Silence still exist in 40k. They did in 30k, but there's absolutely no mention of them after the horus heresy.

That's cuz they're waiting for the big reveal in Codex: SoB!

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:To you, but I have better imagination

If your idea of a cool new unit concept boils down to giving Terminators female heads then we'll have to agree to disagree about who has the better imagination.

Frankly, Repentia are an incredibly sexist piece of fluff . . .

Although it does take a lot of imagination to come up with this!

I think anyone who truly believes in the unique merits of the SoB would not want to see their distinctiveness diluted towards making them more like marines, in any way. SoB need to find their own way to have elites.

Specifically when it comes to terminator armor and SoB I think something more in the vein of artificer armor makes more sense as their "elite" armor. At least to me it an elite SoB unit seems more likely to wear artificer armor while carrying a rosarius (or similar device) effectively creating the same effect as terminator armor... but without being terminator armor.

Dunno... if they still exist, they're the army of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The Ecclesiarchy and the AAT have no love lost between them, to say the least... there's SOME justification for a techpriest or techpriest style Sister, sure, but Sisters and psykers just don't mesh.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'd say Sisters of Silence have less of a chance to show up in any SoB book than Arbites.

Looks like we have a bet. One hundred million imaginary loonies it is.

If arbites turn up anywhere they better have the homing shells. Can't remember the name but they begin with E. Might be exterminator.

And I think I've read somewhere about sentinals too. I've definatly read about them having land speeders. Sentinals I know I've read from somewhere other than a fandex.

The Black Maria as cool as it is I've only seen in a fandex.

Executioner rounds.

For more info see here and here.

Yes, the Black Maria is cribbed from BoLS. I had imagined it as a Supressor-variant Rhino chassis but in a list that can also take Exorcists, I guess it could be redundant. That gets into just making things up which is what I wanted to avoid in that list so thanks for pointing it out.

The "Riot Sentinels" name is also my creation buy Arbites did have access to Sentinels in CJ29, from what I understand.

Manchu wrote:That gets into just making things up which is what I wanted to avoid in that list

It will be impossible to make a coherent fifth edition codex for Sisters without making things up.

At least a codex that doesn't suck at any rate. We all know that GW is going to make gak up and add in new fluff. It's part of fifth edition, an expansion of the fluff. They made new stuff up for Space Marines and pulled things back from older editions, they made things up for Imperial Guard, they made things up for space wolves, they made things up for Blood Angels, they made things up for Tyranids, they made things up for Dark Eldar, they made things up for Grey Knights. It's nonsensical to think that they'll do NOTHING but maintain the status quo for Sisters.

Melissia wrote:It's nonsensical to think that they'll do NOTHING but maintain the status quo for Sisters.

@Melissia: A little more patience while reading posts you disagree with goes a long, long way to sharpening your comprehension. My last sentence in the post with my wishlisting was:

Manchu wrote:This wishlist also leaves some room for whatever GW might dream up. We know that at least a few things will be completely novel and there's not much point making them up ourselves.

Of course there will be new things. Sisters might be totally and completely different from what we've known up til now, in fact. Sure, you can make up a "Celestian Feminatrix" or "Snipster of Battle" but there's not much we can talk about on that score. I mean, you think those are great ideas that would make the Sisters cool since you think they're awful now. And I think those are boring ideas that whitewash them into MEQ territory. We won't know who is right until the release. For all we know, Robin Curddace (or whoever) may strip them of power armor and give them all cyborg ThunderFlamingo mounts.

OTOH, this is a wishlisting thread. I mean, it's a very specific one about Arbites. Fortunately, Arbites have already had some units actually created for them by GW. We know more about them than units that we're simply making up. The same goes for the Ecclesiarchy: frateris militia, priests, SCs have all been released before. (This is why I thanked Scott for pointing out that the Black Maria is really a fan creation.)

Finally, while there will definitely be new units, any unit that has already been released in C:WH has a incredibly higher chance of making it into the new book than something you've made up. For you, the "Feminatrix" is cooler than the Repentia. But the fact that you dislike Repentia doesn't make the "Feminatrix" more likely to be in the book. The wishlist I wrote was an attempt to stick closer to what's probable. In other words, I'm not trying to impose my own view of SoB onto the wishlist but rather extrapolating from what is actually already established.

Melissia wrote:You mean just like striking scorpions are just T3 footslogging assault marines right? Because as we know, everything is a marine expy. The Leman Russ is just a heavier version of the predator. The Chimera is a better armed version of the Rhino. A Carnifex is just a biological version of a dreadnought. Orks are just cheap marines with really bad aim and (basically) no armor. Pulse Rifles are just a slightly stronger boltgun stolen from Marines. Battlesuits are just tiny dreads. A Lord Commissar is just a cheap Captain. A Hellion is just riding a small land speeder. Battle Sisters are just inferior tactical marines. Lootas are just devastators with limited weapons options. Wraithlord is just a slender dread. Wave Serpent is just a hovering rhino. Lictors are just scouts made into monstrous creatures. Zoanthropes are librarians in tyranid form. Heralds of Khorne are daemon chaplains. Blah blah blah fething blah.

Damn do I want to kick someone in the face right now.

Not quite. You invented something which wasn't a Terminator but shared its stat lines, size, nature and effect.

It'd be like me saying 'I want a walker battlesuit for my Tau on a 60mm base, with AV 12 on the front and sides, with a S6 baseline and a DCCW that doubles it up to S10 on one hand and a twin-linked weapon on the other, but it's not a Dreadnought...'

It's also an Imperial unit that normally wear power armor wearing even heavier armor. Melissia wrote a long line of straw men there.

I don't think we'll see much in the way of completely new tech for the SoB a la the Grey Knights. Even when they were in an Inquisition book there wasn't too much in the way or the fantastical. Now, that they're distancing them from the Inquistion I don't see them going down the route of "Oh, we forgot to tell you about the dreadknight".

Yakface's theory about the alleged stop-gap WD codex for Sisters is that the SoB book will share so many units with the GK book that it makes sense to go ahead and release a "beta" of the balance. Even in that case, however, there will be some new stuff. Will it be as much as Gk got? Probably not. After all, Sisters had more actual Sororitas units than GK had actual GK units in their respective Inq codices. Now, I have no grounds to really argue with Yak's point there. The logic is pretty good. But I really, really, really hope he's wrong. If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered. And even if Sisters do get a WD codex sometime soon we won't really know if Yak is right until we actually see a Sisters book. Now will we have to wait three years after a WD dex is released? Maybe so . . .


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aka_mythos wrote:I think anyone who truly believes in the unique merits of the SoB would not want to see their distinctiveness diluted towards making them more like marines, in any way. SoB need to find their own way to have elites.

This is a point I've been meaning to get back to. SoB already have found "their own way to have elites." SoB wear power armor -- that is one of their most distinctive features. Same goes for SM, obviously. Now the SM answer to "how do we make power-armored dudes look even more badass?" is to make that power armor even bigger, bulkier, and less human/more threatening. The thing about SM is that they are these huge, genetically-modified post-humans and - ON TOP OF THAT - they have this awesome armor and some of them - ON TOP OF THAT - have even better armor. Sisters start at the same place: person encased in distinctive armor. But what's different? The person inside is a normal human, both just as frail and just as strong as normal human beings can be. So who could ever think that a unit of Sisters could go toe-to-toe with a unit of Space Marines? The math here is simple: superhuman + power armor > human + power armor. Well, the answer to that is FAITH. Even a Space Marine cannot compare to the SoB when it comes to their faith in the Emperor. This isn't just a matter of SM not thinking the Emperor is a god, either. This is about an objective measurement of devotion, moral endurance, and willpower. So, yes, Sisters do wear power armor -- but their true armor is faith. So how do you make a power-armored Sororitas look even more badass? You take away her power armor. That's what Repentia are really about.

That's why I hope they don't get rid of the Faith points. I thought miracle powers were quite characterful for them.


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Manchu wrote: If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered.

Agreed. I'm pretty confident that won't happen. I think it'll basically be Codex: Ecclesiarchy.

Manchu wrote:It's also an Imperial unit that normally wear power armor wearing even heavier armor. Melissia wrote a long line of straw men there.

Aaand? They're the only non-Astartes army that wears all power armor to begin with. The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing-- no matter WHAT it is, people even said this when I tossed out the idea of a Leman Russ tank and a Sentinel being put in my fandex (The former got in, the latter not so much so)-- makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where discussions on the topic start with me being pissed off, continue with me being pissed off, and END with me being pissed off.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's why I hope they don't get rid of the Faith points. I thought miracle powers were quite characterful for them.


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Manchu wrote: If a SoB book comes out with Ordo Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors and the same henchmen grab bag . . . well, it will be an enormous opportunity squandered.

Agreed. I'm pretty confident that won't happen. I think it'll basically be Codex: Ecclesiarchy.

I'm actually quite confident of the fact that if the rumour about SoB being just a double WD issue/pdf codex isn't true, the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.

Melissia wrote:The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where . . .

Look -- we haven't exhausted "every single possible new thing" here, Captain Exaggeration. We've talked specifically about two things only: Novitiates and Sisters in heavy power armor. These two things have direct parallels to SM units and you haven't successfully explained how either idea would be significantly different to those units. What you did give was a good explanation of why Initiates shouldn't be a separate unit from Battle Sisters and you described an Assault Terminator BUT BETTER.

Aaand that's not really the point of this thread, anyway. As I said at the outset (because you do this a lot) I really would appreciate it if this didn't become yet another argument about your fandex. The ideas you came up with for that are not sufficiently based on what is currently established about Sisters to be relevant to this topic -- which is, given what we already know about Sisters, how could Arbites fit in if at all.


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GeckoOBac wrote:. . . the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.

That would be awful.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:The fact that a lot of people with no imagination continually, repeatedly, and consistently state that every single possible new thing makes them more like Astartes is mind-numbingly infuriating to the point where . . .

Look -- we haven't exhausted "every single possible new thing" here, Captain Exaggeration.

Not yet. But that's not what I said... rather, my complaint was that every time someone-- ANYONE-- tries to suggest something new for Sisters, a large number of clowns posing as otherwise reasonable posters inevitably cry "omg they're becoming marines!". It does not matter what it is that is being added in. I've seen that complaint in a thread that suggested giving Sisters carapace instead of power armor (because it made sisters like scouts, see, and therefor more like marines!).

This isn't just about my fandex. It's pandemic to the internet as a whole. Not that the internet itself doesn't already have an extended history of pissing me off. I admit to being far too easily trolled...

Manchu wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:. . . the new codex will be C:SoB with the parts about inquisition and henchmen just copied over from the GK codex, perhaps with just some little changes like Karamazov granting henchmen as troops instead of coteaz.

That would be awful.

I quite agree... I even think that the way it's been done in the GK codex is just a cop out. They did that instead of, you know, actually fleshing out the inquisition... So I have no doubt that if they've gone that road once, they're going to do it again. The removal of "allies" rules was significant enough for me

Feeling trolled doesn't imply that anyone actually trolling you . . .

Power armor gives Sisters a real challenge: how can they be something other than slightly-worse MEQ? The answer, IMO, is not by giving them units that reinforce that concept. Let's get back to Repentia. Do Marines - of any flavor - have anything like Repentia? Nope. So that goes on the credit side of our "No, They're Not MEQ" balance sheet. Give them heavier armor or make them scouts? Are either of those things already done by Marines? Yep. So those ideas are debits on our balance sheet. In some people's eyes, yes, Sisters are already "in the red." Some folks already think of them as MEQ. That shows they don't know much about Sisters, IMO. But if we're going to come up with some ideas for the Sisters -- like throwing around the plausible if not probable idea of including Arbites with them -- let's get our accounting firmly "into the black."

Manchu wrote:Let's get back to Repentia. Do Marines - of any flavor - have anything like Repentia?

Death Company.

What? When I first read about death company Repentia were the first comparison I drew.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

As a side note, the heavy armor I thought of was more 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ in my mind. It focused on strength and agility rather than protection, which is why it was able to move faster than a terminator. Not all heavy power armor is terminator armor. That position is ludicrous.

Although now that I think of it, an eviscerator + shield combination could be epic looking on heavy power armor, and suit the Sisters' paladin or knight of hte church style fluff, a bit better than my previous mention. Perhaps that would also justify their save, and maybe even have a single-use flamer inside the shield (something which already exists in the Dark Heresy roleplay I should note).

The comparison is really weak - hence why no one compares Repentia with Death Company ... I mean they both have rage. That's it. I think this is part of your misunderstanding of Repentia. Repentia are not crazy; Death Company are.

Once again, and hopefully for the last time, I'm not saying there will never be a Feminatrix unit or that such a thing cannot be distinct from Terminators. I'm saying that we can't know what there will be among the new things. No one has ever said all heavy armor is Terminator armor, either. What I have said is that putting Sisters in heavier armor to create an elites choice is not a novel idea because that is a SM trope. You're distinguishing the armor more as you post, which is getting torward a more novel idea. It has a ways to go: what's the fluff concept, for example? That'd be a fine thread to start over in Proposed Rules.

... I never said there WILL be such a thing. Only that it would be cool.

Manchu wrote:The comparison is really weak - hence why no one compares Repentia with Death Company ... I mean they both have rage. That's it. I think this is part of your misunderstanding of Repentia. Repentia are not crazy; Death Company are.

Repentia most certainly are crazy, flagellating themselves for imagined faults (IE, inflicting self-harm), in the words of C:WH.

Eh, that's not crazy for 40k. Death Company think they're literally Sanguinius. The "imagined" faults of Repentia can become very real very fast. Repentia take their vows to atone for even the hint of heresy, the possibility of doubt. In a world where daemons are an actual threat and heresy can lead to the death of billions, that might be wise rather than mad. No doubt they are nuts by IRL standards, however. So is everyone else in 40k.

I'm really not sure where this "Knight/Templar" image is coming from in regards to the Sororitas.

Outside of having Fleur de Lys and armor, not much about them is very knightly.