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The Imperium will most likely spend massive resources rebuilding it even bigger before Abaddon can get out again...

-Loki- wrote:

Jordan wrote:

-Loki- wrote:In the case of Abaddon, his biggest, most wel equipped black crusade managed to make planetfall on Cadia. Woo, go Abaddon.

For Abaddon, that's a pretty gosh-darn big deal.

It is - but you'd expect more from how powerful the 13th black crusade was meant to be. The best Abaddon could throw at the Imperium didn't even really get out of the Eye of Terror. Man, he's so worthy of being feared.

Erm, he achieved more, as described in the 13. Black Crusade background book. The entire Cadian sector is ravaged by the forces of Chaos and warpstorms ( thanks to Erebus ) make both communication and troop movements difficult for the Imperials. Imperial space superiority is far less complete than often described, even with help from the reinforcements from Battlefleet Solar, thanks to the mentioned warpstorms, heavy losses during the battle against Abaddon's blackstone fortress ( "Admiral Quarren reports that the bulk of his fleet is destroyed"-> The Thirteenth Black Crusade page 87) and remaining Chaos fleet elements.
The thirteenth black crusade is far from being over and might last well into the 42. millenium: "We must now consolidate our grip on those worlds we still hold and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of us. While Cadia still stands humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finaly achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions over ten thousand years, he has breached the Cadian Gate and non can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man." ( The Thirteenth Black Crusade page 94 ).

So he doesn't have to present himself before the pantheon with a contrite look on his face... this time.

Big whup.
1. Chaos is fickle. The gods will abandon him pretty quickly.
2. The Chaos legions are equally fickle. The only ones that might last aren't there (Iron Warriors) or have stupid names (the Purge).
3. The IOM has him right where they want him - "stuck in" in Real Space (TM). So it takes a decade or three. They smashing their primary opponent. Kick the crapola out of the Chaos forces and they can finally turn and concentrate substantial forces against other threats.

Unknowingly, Abaddon comes to us at the turning of the tide. M42 will be a good day indeed for Man.

Frazzled wrote:Big whup.
1. Chaos is fickle. The gods will abandon him pretty quickly.
2. The Chaos legions are equally fickle. The only ones that might last aren't there (Iron Warriors) or have stupid names (the Purge).
3. The IOM has him right where they want him - "stuck in" in Real Space (TM). So it takes a decade or three. They smashing their primary opponent. Kick the crapola out of the Chaos forces and they can finally turn and concentrate substantial forces against other threats.

Unknowingly, Abaddon comes to us at the turning of the tide. M42 will be a good day indeed for Man.

Having a stupid name is a well known handicap in 40k background...

purplefood wrote:The Imperium will most likely spend massive resources rebuilding it even bigger before Abaddon can get out again...

The conflict is actually still raging on.

For the Imperium, a breakthrough of Abaddons forces would be terrible.

Kanluwen wrote:The thing that is always overlooked is that when these Black Crusades crop up?

They are no joke. The Imperium devotes a huge amount of resources to counter them. There were entire Chapters of Astartes that left their current warzones to move to Cadia.

That is pretty much unheard of.

To be fair, the average chapter is still only a few hundred Marines, barely more than a Guard regiment in strength, and significantly less than the smallest warship of the Imperial Navy, which still has more ship-to-ship firepower than a chapter, as Space Marines are prohibited from possessing assets capable of engaging Naval vessels.

The force listings for the defenders for the Black Crusades are likewise not all that impressive, though obviously a great deal better than Abaddon's hilariously weak forces. Abaddon fails not because significant resources are diverted against him, but because he has effectively no resources under his command.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The thing that is always overlooked is that when these Black Crusades crop up?

They are no joke. The Imperium devotes a huge amount of resources to counter them. There were entire Chapters of Astartes that left their current warzones to move to Cadia.

That is pretty much unheard of.

To be fair, the average chapter is still only a few hundred Marines, barely more than a Guard regiment in strength, and significantly less than the smallest warship of the Imperial Navy, which still has more ship-to-ship firepower than a chapter, as Space Marines are prohibited from possessing assets capable of engaging Naval vessels.

The force listings for the defenders for the Black Crusades are likewise not all that impressive, though obviously a great deal better than Abaddon's hilariously weak forces. Abaddon fails not because significant resources are diverted against him, but because he has effectively no resources under his command.

Spae Marine naval assets are one of their greatest strengths, the don't posses anything capable of killing a bttleship maybe but a battle barge isn't to be ignored and neither is a strike cruiser. An entire chapter could easily destroy a regiment, probably a few if pushed.

purplefood wrote:An entire chapter could easily destroy a regiment, probably a few if pushed.

Per their codex, a Space Marine is roughly the equivalent of twelve run of the mill Guardsmen. This caps the strength of a regiment at around 12,000 Guardsmen, were it at full strength. Depending on the source, this can be from at most twice the strength of a regiment (most Black Library books involving Guard), to less than a third (the Guard codex). This is to say nothing of armoured regiments, which come out significantly ahead of a chapter in strength. Then there's whatever unit stormtroopers are organized into, since man for man they're almost the equal of Space Marines, only they actually bother to carry a weapon that can cut through power armor like a hot knife through butter, as opposed to firecracker-tipped model rockets (they're also not giant clanking blocks of clumsy metal)...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

purplefood wrote:An entire chapter could easily destroy a regiment, probably a few if pushed.

Per their codex, a Space Marine is roughly the equivalent of twelve run of the mill Guardsmen. This caps the strength of a regiment at around 12,000 Guardsmen, were it at full strength. Depending on the source, this can be from at most twice the strength of a regiment (most Black Library books involving Guard), to less than a third (the Guard codex). This is to say nothing of armoured regiments, which come out significantly ahead of a chapter in strength. Then there's whatever unit stormtroopers are organized into, since man for man they're almost the equal of Space Marines, only they actually bother to carry a weapon that can cut through power armor like a hot knife through butter, as opposed to firecracker-tipped model rockets (they're also not giant clanking blocks of clumsy metal)...

A single marine is the equivalent to 12 guardsmen. That number begins to increase when they are fighting as a squad under a skilled sergeant. Then again under a captain. Then again under a chapter master. I'm not saying they are invincible but i would say that few guard commanders are good enough to defeat a chapter's full strength. Then again guard could simply swamp the marines if they had enough people but the casualties would be enormous.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

The force listings for the defenders for the Black Crusades are likewise not all that impressive, though obviously a great deal better than Abaddon's hilariously weak forces. Abaddon fails not because significant resources are diverted against him, but because he has effectively no resources under his command.

Abaddon fails because he was spotted as a weak link even pre-heresy by Rogal Dorn, who saw him as the tacticallly stupid butcher he is.
So his lack of charming diplomacy, the feature that got his Primarch into his position, leads to the usual end of every chaos force.
- Losing, splitting up into factions, running away to their hideout to scheme "for the next time, when revenge will be theirs"....

The force listings tough, aren't so bad. Maybe point out where the listings should be changed to float your boat?

Frazzled wrote:The gods will abandon him pretty quickly.

Abandon Abaddon.

Say that ten times fast!

Don't forget that his sword repeatedly tries to kill him...

Just get another sword mate.

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:The gods will abandon him pretty quickly.

Abandon Abaddon.

Say that ten times fast!

Don't forget that his sword repeatedly tries to kill him...

Just get another sword mate.

Don't be silly...
He found that one on a graveyard world when a random gold person gave it to him, they don't just give away swords of that power...
Oh wait...

Evil & cheese

IMO the way to look at it is that Abbadon is not a great leader. He is more like one of the most powerful thugs in the galaxy, and neither he nor his legion represent a force of the sort of dark majesty that would normally make a villain appealing. Instead they are more like a den of thieves and junkies, stealing whatever they can to increase their power and destroying whatever gets in their way. M41 chaos marines are mostly vicious, pathetic braggarts.

Abbadon represents those qualities quite well, never mind that his current cost and rules make him a terrible HQ. Thus he is hateful to all.

He's also kind of a dick, really.

I mean, gak, set a dude up with a Pretty Sweet(TM) ship, you know, all the trim... spinners, the dangly things on the windshield, hula dancer on the dash, iPod support, the works... hell, you would think the dude would at least drop you a Christmas card, right?

Hell no... Abbadon always got to have a thing going on, forgets who is friends are. What a dick.

Psienesis wrote:He's also kind of a dick, really.

I mean, gak, set a dude up with a Pretty Sweet(TM) ship, you know, all the trim... spinners, the dangly things on the windshield, hula dancer on the dash, iPod support, the works... hell, you would think the dude would at least drop you a Christmas card, right?

Hell no... Abbadon always got to have a thing going on, forgets who is friends are. What a dick.

Wait, what?

Confuzzled is me..

loota boy wrote:

Psienesis wrote:He's also kind of a dick, really.

I mean, gak, set a dude up with a Pretty Sweet(TM) ship, you know, all the trim... spinners, the dangly things on the windshield, hula dancer on the dash, iPod support, the works... hell, you would think the dude would at least drop you a Christmas card, right?

Hell no... Abbadon always got to have a thing going on, forgets who is friends are. What a dick.

Wait, what?

Confuzzled is me..

The pretty sweet ship he's referring to is the Planet Killer. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Planet_Killer

Well for one he despoiled my army rations.

Asdrubael Vect makes Abaddon fetch his morning news paper for him. Its a sad shame I know just look and compare Asdrubael's stats compared to Abaddon. Even Mesphiston uses Abaddon as a lap dog.

I may not be up to date on all the lore of the universe.. but from everything i can gather about abaddon, is that he he hasn't really accomplished anything that can really elevate him to "big bad" status.

Others have said that the black crusades are serious business, and that the imperium has to divert alot of resources to stopping them. The only problem with this line of thinking though, is that as far as i see, the 40k universe is basically static. Nothing can really change too much, or the dynamic of the universe changes with it. With that in mind everything of any lasting value has to take place before the current place in the warhammer timeline, so using phrases like "if this crusade goes any further, the imperium would be in real trouble" to quantify his place as a big villian are rather moot because those things will never happen.

The only way i could see creating him as a big bad at this point would be to retcon some of the universe to give him some major victories (and more reason to be feared) before the current point in the 40k timeline.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the matter.

i thought he was always pretty cool. when i first got into 40k me and my mates never really cared much about the fluff side of things bar what we read in the codex's. he was always a pretty tough opponent then but i agree with the general consensus of this topic, he is pretty naff.

0 and 13 for his black crusades would get any coach/manager fired. i reckon he's slowly but surely going to regret siding with chaos as they aren't the most reliable guys to work with. i reckon him and the black legion are pretty much like the Ultramarines in terms of organisation(albeit with more savagery etc) but its the 'one-dimensional' allies he has that let him down whereas each and every space marine seems to rather want to die for good and are therefore reliable in a sense.

I don't hate him. I hate his model though.

well, fluff wise for the table top, he can get scared off the table. The fething WARMASTER OF CHAOS can run away with his tail between his legs because his squad gets shot up. If he would confer fearless to his squad (I realize this is potentially OP) then I would like him a lot more.

Think about it, Abbadon himself has made 13 black crusades; and failed 13 times(there were other Black crusades led by others, but Abbadon personally led 13 of the biggest), well 2 of them were not total failures(the 12th was the Gothic War and Abbodon succeeds at his primary goal: capturing the Blackstone fortress. And the last one is still technically ongoing). He is also supposedly the herald of/gifted by all 4 powers, yet he fails just about every time. He is the True herald of Malaal; responsible for more destruction of those loyal to the 4 "major" powers than any other single person in 40K.

All hail Abbadon: Champion of Malaal!

All hail Abbadon: Champion of Irony!

Well all this stuff about abbodon, you think we would make a mistake by killing him

Halsfield wrote:Why do we hate abaddon? Let me count the ways...

1) He is leader of the chaos version of ultramarines(both named after colors...how imaginative...at least abaddon has a cooler color?)

2) He's failed to deal any critical blows to the imperium in 13 black crusades. People have died, marines have died, but nothing permanent or something the imperium doesn't have the capability to recover from due to the long period between crusades.

3)Destroyed Horus' body in a childish rage. Ganked his talon.

4)He is supposed to be a great tactician and is able to bring lots of conflicting chaos groups together to fight the imperium, but his model in 4e has no benefit that helps anything but himself.

5)Has the backing of all chaos gods and still lets imperial guard and loyalist marines with no such backing send him running to the Eye with his tail between his legs....13 times.

6)Terrible fashion sense(what the hell is on your head dude?).

7)Portrayed as kind of an ass and a leader of a band of inbred thugs in the novels (soul hunter comes to mind).

I'll think of more here in a bit...

agreed. The dude has failed so many times against the imperium which takes time to react he takes his sweet time and tries to defeat the imperium on their home turf by attacking the most well defended place instead of taking out their supply lines which every reasonable leader would have done. WHICH HE DIDN'T. The guy is also dumb enough to try and mess with a navy 50x his fleets size.... Idiot.
Not only that but I believe the biggest bad guy in the 40k universe has got to be Horus, The Orc Warlord (Forgot his name), Angron and Night Bringer.

Because he has failed 13/13 Black Crusades and has no arms.

Go find the 4chan page on him. It is exaggerated, but oh so true.

im2randomghgh wrote:Because he has failed 13/13 Black Crusades and has no arms.

Go find the 4chan page on him. It is exaggerated, but oh so true.

I sense truth here.