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The problem is while the 13th Black Crusade is a pretty big conflict and still not over, it's still a localized war, making the "Warmaster of Chaos" similar to some kind of big Waaagh! rather then a truly Galactic-level threat like the Tyranids or Necrons. That is what his problem is: he's a local threat rather than a galactic one.

Well I could see how they could fix his image a bit mostly with the negative's on the imperial side of the fence sure he hasn't done jack but chaos dosen't know anything of being organized other wise it wouldn't be chaos. But for me I guess if I was running Fluff and all that and what I've read as of late I would run a new black crusade and have Marneus Calgar die in a duel vs 'Abby hair scrunch' and Captain Sicarius killed off by someone say like... Fabius Bile / Cypher / Huron Blackheart. You could throw in some plot and dramatic reading of course but it would kill 2 negative's with one stone pretty much but yeah I agree... Chaos needs some kind of mortal wound or scarring factor aside the horus heresy its getting old and we are all use to it since its been running for so long I think a new scar is in order and now I sound like Lucius...

-Sincerely Viri

Well he is among the top 5 IC in the game, and really other than what went down during the heresy he really shouldn't be.

1v1 Abaddon has a good chance of killing anything in the game but really he is just a pissy chaos marine with a few heirlooms.

CageUF wrote:Well he is among the top 5 IC in the game, and really other than what went down during the heresy he really shouldn't be.

1v1 Abaddon has a good chance of killing anything in the game but really he is just a pissy chaos marine with a few heirlooms.

Yea but it is funny when 20 berserkers charge him and he rolls a 1 for his daemon weapon

aderdere wrote:well, fluff wise for the table top, he can get scared off the table. The fething WARMASTER OF CHAOS can run away with his tail between his legs because his squad gets shot up. If he would confer fearless to his squad (I realize this is potentially OP) then I would like him a lot more.

Or, you could actually but him in a Fearless Squad instead of Terminators.

Surprising how simple that "fix" is, huh?

Well my first problem is with hte model.
He's smaller then the plastic termies,(It says in the HH that Abaddon is way taller,even in his armour).
Plus the big metal arms are impossible to glue,and I can't pin.

The second is his rules,for a 10,000 year old,pure blood of a Primarch Warmaster blessed by all four Chaos Gods. And he still can't hold up against Mr watered-down geneseed,I'm so special,Papa Smurf Calgar.

CageUF wrote:Well he is among the top 5 IC in the game, and really other than what went down during the heresy he really shouldn't be.

1v1 Abaddon has a good chance of killing anything in the game but really he is just a pissy chaos marine with a few heirlooms.

An'ggrath sprays rape-sauce on him. An'ggrath is probably the best melee unit in the game.

I have to admit now I look at all the evidence Abaddon does kinda fail

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:
the big metal arms are impossible to glue, and I can't pin.

OK, I might be dumb, but is it established that the Black Crusades all have as their goal the destruction of the Imperium and the death of the Emperor?

I mean, I know that is the "ultimate goal" of a lot of Chaos Space Marines, but is it established somewhere that Abaddon (or whoever) led each Crusade specifically for that purpose? I thought the "Crusade" moniker was ultimately bestowed by Imperial historians and military commanders. Is it possible that Abaddon had different goals for some of these crusades, and was actually successful in some of them?

If not, then OF COURSE, they all failed. There's no way GW is going to have Abaddon kill the Emperor and defeat all the Imperial Forces. "
I win! Now all games are CSM vs. Orks/Tyranids/Eldar/Necrons! So long, best selling line of models!"

I think the problem is that Abaddon has failed to shine in any of the ways that a Special Character could in the game.

He's not a fantastic model. The topknot is silly and his head is tiny. Problem is, he's evidently a midget Space Marine.

He's not fantastic in the game. The Daemon Weapon rules make it too easy for him to be ineffective, or even to kill himself.

He's not established in the fluff as particularly cool, imposing, scary, or effective. I mean, they TELL us he is super-awesome evil-bad, but there's very little fluff out there SHOWING him being cool.

Lots of Special Characters distinguish themselves in at least one of these ways, even if they don't shine in all three (Vulkan is super-useful in game, but not generally regarded as a great model, nor does he have a lot of backstory establishing how cool he is). Abaddon gets none. I keep hoping one of the really great Horus Heresy writers will focus on him and crank out a novel that establishes how cool he is.

Captain Godfrey wrote:Because he's fat, and sassy.

Like a kitty! Aren't those reasons to like him?

No.

Would you want a Chaos kitty imbibed with all 4 Chaos Gods?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No seriously and kitties don't wield Daemon Weapons that tend to kill them

Plus: not fluffy. Key aspect in kitty-appeal.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:No.

Would you want a Chaos kitty imbibed with all 4 Chaos Gods?

As a minion? Can I get a "hell yes"?

No seriously and kitties don't wield Daemon Weapons that tend to kill them

They don't need daemon weapons, their claws are far more lethal and get to re-roll 1s.

He renamed the Legion 'Horus Sons' to the black Legion. Because Horus failed killing the Emperor and capturing Terra. ow, Abbadon himself fails more and most likely will never be able to reach Terra.

Blackskullandy wrote:

Halsfield wrote:

2) He's failed to deal any critical blows to the imperium in 13 black crusades.

You could have stopped here! 13, count them, 13 black crusades and no significant progress... His annual perfomance reviews must be interesting.
First Captain of the Lunar Wolves to complete failure is probably not the career progress he had in mind...

This is the reason IMO .

Seriously, the attempt to make Abaddon the big bad boy of the galaxy is just silly. In 13 'crusades' he hasn't even been able to make it out of the driveway . As far as threats to the Imperium go, Chaos Marines in general are barely on the radar. Orks, Nids, Necrons, and even Tau are bigger threats to the future of the Imperium as a whole. Chaos Marines are right up there with the Eldars, kinda annoying but not really a threat of making any progress.

The fact that the CSM with Abaddon haven't made it past Cadia is the main reason my view of the faction is "woo look at that, angry spikey marines, whatever".

thenoobbomb wrote:He renamed the Legion 'Horus Sons' to the black Legion. Because Horus failed killing the Emperor and capturing Terra. ow, Abbadon himself fails more and most likely will never be able to reach Terra.

Sons of Horus, actually.

Abbadon was Horus' biggest fan, and was probably hit the hardest by his death. It's not inconceivable that his faith in his Primarch was so great, that he could imagine no other reason for Horus' failure except that he let the Emperor win (which he did, in fact). This would undoubtedly make Abbadon feel betrayed, having sacrificed his honor as Astartes and his soul as a human being for someone who choked in the last moment.

Of course, Horus may have had the galaxy in his grasp and let it slip away, but Abbadon hasn't gotten anywhere near to that point. Then again, Horus had about 100,000 times more resource for his attempt, so we can't be too hard on ol' topknot.

I hate him simply because I hate anything chaos. In the early days of 40k Chaos was the mary sue of GW. When the new Chaos codex came out and Abaddon started to be played by everyone and their brother and he could basically kill anything you sent him against I got tired of him real quick. Now that 5th edition has rolled around and Chaos is no longer the powerhouse it used to be I don't really care about him that much anymore, but I still don't like what he represents.

His fluff isnt any were near up to scratch, he is like the bane of the Imperium

What are you guys on about? Abaddon has never failed in any of his black crusades. Not a single one. Every single crusade he has been on has accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Has it ever occured to you that Abaddon serves all four chaos gods, not just one?

So that means that while he may set a goal and not see it come to pass that doesn't mean it's a failure, it means Tzeentch, the Lord of Change didn't want it to come to pass, he wanted change..so he pulls the strings of fate and changes things from a win to a loss. Sure, it's frustrating, which is why Abaddon gets so angry (you would too if the rules kept changing on you) but the main goal that is above all others is always accomplished.

And that main goal is to cause as much chaos in the galaxy as possible. Can you deny that his black crusades do exactly that?

Abaddon isn't a failure...he's a success! He isn't out to destroy the galaxy, he's out to cause as much chaos as he can.

Creeping Dementia wrote:
In 13 'crusades' he hasn't even been able to make it out of the driveway

.
Except he has. Look at the Gothic War. There was also the Black Crusade to allow him to claim his Daemon sword, I think. There's no way for him, however, to actually wage effective war against the Imperium without first taking Cadia. So despite razing dozens of worlds, nobody gives him any credit, because they point towards Cadia and say 'that hasn't fallen, Abaddon must be terrible at waging war'. The Tyranids clearly aren't a threat either, considering Hive Fleet Behmoth couldn't even take Ultramar, Kraken was stopped by the Ultramarines again and a single Craftworld, and Leviathan was dumb enough to be diverted into an Orkish Empire. The Imperium continually diverts resources away from the Tau. Necrons don't actually really do much. The Orks routinely get stopped on a far more regular basis than Chaos forces.

As far as threats to the Imperium go, Chaos Marines in general are barely on the radar.

Not quite true. The Alpha Legion, for example, are quite capable of destroying Space Marine Chapters and the other Legions are major threats when they turn up. However, Chaos Space Marines aren't the greatest threat of Chaos, no; but then, Abaddon does manage to command far more than the just elements of the Chaos Space Marines - he uses countless cultists and Daemons as well.

Orks, Nids, Necrons, and even Tau are bigger threats to the future of the Imperium as a whole.

Tau. Threat. Right. Sure. They don't even come close. Chaos is the only force to ever come close to toppling the Imperium, and in effect brought it to its current weakness ten thousand years later after the Horus Heresy. It is pretty much the one threat that the Imperium is completely devoted to defeating. No faction comes close to matching Chaos as threat to the Imperium as it now stands.

Chaos Marines are right up there with the Eldars, kinda annoying but not really a threat of making any progress.

If they operated by themselves, then yeah, probably. But that's the same with Loyalist Space Marines. They aren't going to be bringing down the Imperium by themselves. They can, however, convert populations to their cause (only the Tau manage to do that in any quantity, and even then, the Tau are only doing that on small border worlds - part of the threat of Chaos is that it can strike anywhere.), use cultists, use Daemons, manipulate their enemies and bring to bear their forces where they are need most so they will defeat most forces of comparable strength.

The fact that the CSM with Abaddon haven't made it past Cadia is the main reason my view of the faction is "woo look at that, angry spikey marines, whatever".

Except they have. Besides, the greatest threat of Chaos has always been its ability to corrupt and subvert from within, hence the Imperiums dedication to stamping out heresy brutally whenever it finds it (and to be honest, I feel that the Alpha Legion exemplefy that aspect of Chaos).

Roadkill Zombie wrote:What are you guys on about? Abaddon has never failed in any of his black crusades. Not a single one. Every single crusade he has been on has accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Has it ever occured to you that Abaddon serves all four chaos gods, not just one?

So that means that while he may set a goal and not see it come to pass that doesn't mean it's a failure, it means Tzeentch, the Lord of Change didn't want it to come to pass, he wanted change..so he pulls the strings of fate and changes things from a win to a loss. Sure, it's frustrating, which is why Abaddon gets so angry (you would too if the rules kept changing on you) but the main goal that is above all others is always accomplished.

And that main goal is to cause as much chaos in the galaxy as possible. Can you deny that his black crusades do exactly that?

Abaddon isn't a failure...he's a success! He isn't out to destroy the galaxy, he's out to cause as much chaos as he can.

So he's set out to be forced to hang in the EOT for 10,000 years? He's not one to swing for the fences is he...

Well, when your mind is that saturated with Chaos, you wouldn't be thinking straight either

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Well, when your mind is that saturated with Chaos, you wouldn't be thinking straight either

The small woman glanced down at her clipboard, then looked back up at the hulking figure that had finally finished adjusting itself on her poor couch. She pushed a strand of hair out of her eyes, tucking it back behind her glasses, and sighed inwardly. Being the best counselor in the galaxy had its drawbacks sometimes. Still, the pay was good. Tapping her pen on the clipboard, she began.

“So tell me, Mr… uhm… Despoiler; where do you think your stress comes from?”

Abaddon shifted on her couch again, his terminator-armored bulk threatening to flatten the valiant furniture. “Where doesn’t it come from,” he sighed, his voice surprisingly soft for the most feared champion of the dark gods. “I mean, there’s the gods themselves at the top of the pile: Khorne’s always teasing me that Kharn’s got more kills than I have – up-close-and-personal ones, mind, Khorne doesn’t like all this newfangled stuff like the Planet Killer – and Tzeentch never shuts up about me being so predictable. And then there’s Nurgle. Warp dammit that guy could give a daemonette weight issues. Doom this and despair that and decay the other.”

The counselor nodded understandingly. “I can sympathize with that,” she said. She could – her ex had gotten involved with Nurgle back in the 960’s. He had said it helped him deal with his depression, but she hadn’t believed him. Proving him wrong was one of the reasons she had taken up psychotherapy. “Is there anything… closer to home… than that, though?”

He hummed a bit. “Like the other champions?”

“If you like,” she said patiently. The trouble with megalomaniacs was that they could never really accept that someone else knew more than them. They had to be led along oh-so-carefully. Especially Tzeentchian ones – her hardest client yet had been one of Ahriman’s Cabal claiming to be bipolar (it turned out he was just suffering a mild bout of warp-induced madness and paranoia, but the sorceror would have none of it).

“Well, Ahriman’s always been a bit of a pretentious git.” (Speak of the devil, thought the counselor.) Abaddon flexed the Talon of Horus, and she winced imperceptibly as it took another inch of cushioning off the arm of her couch. “He never knows when to shut up, that one doesn’t. Even Magnus doesn’t want to talk to him when he’s around, and that old cyclops could talk the pustules off Nurgle.”

“Is there anything in particular that Mr Ahriman says that has a major effect on you?” she asked, marking ‘JEALOUSY - FEELS INADEQUATE?’ on her clipboard.

Abaddon frowned. “Not really, I suppose. He’s always going on about how he would have done the Black Crusades so much better than I did, but then everyone does that these days – not that I see any of them stepping up for a go.”

“And any of the other champions of Chaos?”

“Not really. Typhus is usually off doing his own thing with the Terminus Est, which is a relief really, the guy stinks worse than Mortarion these days. Lucius is busy doing whatever it is that Lucius does down on some daemon world or another – sure, the guy heads out for a quick raid every now and then, but it’s pretty easy to distract him, all things considered.”

She nodded. “And Kharn?”

“Kharn? Kharn’s actually a pretty cool guy, once you get to know him. Gets a bit carried away every now and then, but its all part of his charm. It’s not like he doesn’t give people ample warning – he is called the betrayer, after all. No, Kharn’s never bothered me much. He comes along on most of my Crusades, and we usually end up having a good laugh.”

He leaned back. “Reminds me of this one time we were assaulting Cadia – I think it was back in M34, actually – and it ended up with just the two of us and some traitor company, the Red Rivers, I think they called them. Something to do with a river of blood or something like that, but Kharn had taken quite a shine to them. Anyway, we were stuck outside on of the Kasrs, and Kharn gets the brilliant idea to take one of the Rivers’ landers and do some aerial reconnaissance. So up we go, along with a few dozen of the Rivers to pilot the damned thing, and we see the Kasrkin all there in the main square doing some parade or other.”

Abaddon grinned. “Out of nowhere, Kharn grabs up one of the Rivers and just throws him right out of the hatch! He fell so fast he nearly exploded when he hit the ground! Turns out he hit one of the Kasrkin right on the head, got blood everywhere, and the guy’s powerpack detonates! Before I could even congratulate him or tell him we’ve got a heavy bolter strapped to the wing, Kharn’s throwing more traitors down at record speed. The Kasrkin are all scattering, and Kharn keeps hitting them.”

He chuckled. “Of course, he had to stop eventually. There was only one of the Rivers left, and we needed him to fly us back to camp, but before we turned back around, Kharn grabs my arm and tells me to look down at the Kasr. Lo and behold, all the Kasrkin Kharn had hit had left big blood and scorch marks on the ground, and he’d managed to spell out a message! Want to know what it was?”

She nodded.

“It was a haiku:

Inside your Kasr Is where we’ll be tomorrow So clean up would you?

“Let me tell you,” Abaddon said, “I about laughed my topknot off. When I managed to turn around, I saw Kharn high-fiving the pilot – afterwards I found out it put the guy in traction for two solid weeks – but when he turns to me he whispers:

“I was trying to draw a boat.”

Abaddon chuckled. “Kharn’s one swell guy. Always sees the best in things.”

The counselor was, for the first time in her life, speechless. She just didn’t know what to say to that tale. She leaned forwards, adjusting her glasses.

“So yeah,” said Abaddon, “the stress. What was it you were asking me about ag...ain…” he trailed off as he noticed a glint in her eyes. Abruptly, he realized – the belching smoke, the grimy tracks, the slowly rotating turret-

His psychotherapist was a Leman Russ Demolisher.

Roaring, he leapt off the couch as a flurry of heavy bolter rounds tore it to shreds. Lightning wreathed the Talon of Horus, and he dropped into a crouch, cursing himself for not realizing it sooner. He dodged to the side as the turret fired, sending a demolisher shell straight through the window of the office.

Abaddon lashed out with Drach’nyen. The daemonsword tore a burning gash out of the side of the tank, but it gunned its engine and accelerated away through the wall, trying to get enough range to use its weapons against him.

To replace his counselor with a Leman Russ without him knowing could only have been pulled off by some kind of tactical genius-

“CREEEEEEED!” bellowed Abaddon as he charged after the tank. “I’ll have your head spitted on my talon! I’ll hang your guts from my armor spikes! I’ll-” He was cut short as a lascannon beam forced him to lurch awkwardly sideways.

“I’ll rip out your toenails and use them to eat your eyes!” he shouted, finding his rhythm again. “I’ll tear you out of your metal box and feed you to the thousand terrors of the warp! I’ll... do very nasty things to your mother!”

At this, the tank rumbled forwards, its sponsons roaring to life. Bolts thundered out at Abaddon, most going wide, but many still hammered into his armor. He forced his way through the storm and met the oncoming tank head-on, ramming Drach’nyen through the driver’s slit and feeling it bite deep into something behind it. Even as the tank’s dozer blade smashed into his shins he shouted in triumph and ripped the daemonsword upwards.

With the power of the gods of Chaos coursing through him, the tank came up with the sword, rising in an immense arc until it tore free of the blade and went crashing over his head and through three walls.

Startled heads peeked around the edges of the newly opened hole as Abaddon stalked towards the smoking remains of the tank. It had landed upside down, and had crumpled under its own weight. No man could have survived it, but Abaddon wanted to make sure.

Using the Talon as a shovel, he dug his way through the tank until he came to the crew compartment. Instead of finding the smashed and ruined body of his nemesis, though... there was a note. Frowning, he picked it up.

Dear Abaddon the Despoiler, If you thought this was good, wait until you see what I did to your flagship.

Yours sincerely,

Ursakar E. Creed


“CRREEEEEEEEEEEEED!”

Noah da guardsmen wrote:I just dont know why.

Mostly because they think that since none of the 13 Black Crusades reached earth, that he's a failure (despite that not really being the intention of any of them) and overlooking the fact that the Black Crusades have been the largest and most devastating conflicts the Imperium has seen aside from Vandire's rule and the nascent Tyranid invasions.

He has failed all 13 Black Crusades. He should be Chaos Spawn by now.
That, and he has stupid hair.

I like Abaddon. He's a pretty cool dude, having united all the Traitor Legions, killing a Primarch (he didn't kill Rogal Dorn personally, but he still ordered/orchestrated it and stuff), capturing two Blackstone Fortresses, having a ship that can blow up planets, and taking control of Cadia. The problem is that the Imperium outnumbers him by a lot (I'd guess 10 to 1) and his force is plagued by horrific infighting.

Da Butcha wrote:
If not, then OF COURSE, they all failed. There's no way GW is going to have Abaddon kill the Emperor and defeat all the Imperial Forces. "
I win! Now all games are CSM vs. Orks/Tyranids/Eldar/Necrons! So long, best selling line of models!"

They don't have to have him destroy the entire Imperium. If he got past Cadia and was at large somewhere in the galaxy, it would be VERY interesting.

For one his cosmetic look is well kinda silly or even flat out stupid and then in all books of Warhammer i have read where he is talked to which is only one (Soul Hunter) but he is not fitting of a bad guys role. He just isn't a good bad dude they should have a real clone of Horus show up and take over in my opinion cause Horus was a literal pimp