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Nerivant wrote:They're both extremely strong, able to take large amounts of damage, and both have powerful weaponry... but 1v1, I think the Yautja will come out on top. They're hunters, plain and simple. 1v1... as good as a Space Marine is, the Yautja will wear him down and set up a fatal ambush.

Space Wolves are hunters as well. Not saying that would make them better or more likely to win, but I am saying it would even things a little. Not to mention they have super-smell so they would notice his scent ...or lack of one if he was using something to block scent.

Skycrawler wrote:Space Wolves are hunters as well. Not saying that would make them better or more likely to win, but I am saying it would even things a little. Not to mention they have super-smell so they would notice his scent ...or lack of one if he was using something to block scent.

Yautja (comic book/novel predators) are described as having a musk

so even a non-SW marine might be able to pick up the scent (depending on whether there are a lot of other odors crowding it out)
scent, of course, only gives you a general idea of your opponent's direction and proximity but I suppose it would help unless the predator masks his scent

I hate to say it, I really do...

But a Space Marine would wipe the floor with a Predator.

That Space Marine lives to hunt this Predator down, rip his spine out, feed him his own heart, and scream for the emprah while he does so.

They are built for war that spans a galaxy and often times, will see horrors that simply negate even the worst hunts a veteran Predator has ever been on. Predators are awesome, but a hunter vs a galactic super soldier is going to end for the Predator poorly.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:That Space Marine lives to hunt this Predator down, rip his spine out, feed him his own heart, and scream for the emprah while he does so.

you're perfectly welcome to your opinion but I don't think any of what you said even remotely approaches a logical argument

b1soul wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:That Space Marine lives to hunt this Predator down, rip his spine out, feed him his own heart, and scream for the emprah while he does so.

you're perfectly welcome to your opinion but I don't think any of what you said even remotely approaches a logical argument

Simply put, a Space Marine is a soldier who from conception to final realization, is the apex of human warfare. He is the embodiment of war perfected from a human standpoint, for a massive war the likes of which decides the fate of a galaxy. Considering these super soldiers utterly crushed an entire galaxy into total submission with incredible feats of tactical brutality, I'd find it hard to imagine a Xeno that hunts and struggles to defeat average men on earth in the 1980s, would stand a chance at hell at defeating a single marine. A marine that would make the protagonists of both the Pred films and comics look like children.

thanks for fleshing out your thoughts

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Simply put...

but...
1) the OP specifies that the predator is a veteran predator from the expanded universe and NOT a movie predator...so I don't know why you're even bringing up the movies
the "Yautja" (as predators are called in the expanded universe) are much more "juiced up" than their movie counterparts

2) I could just as easily point to the rather weak portrayals of SM in the recent Ultramarines movie or in the Dawn of War cinematic and say "wow, SM struggle with Orks...they'd get slaughtered by predators!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2v_cTG3K8&hd=1)

3) are you familiar with any of the predator media outside the films? have you read any books, comics, etc.?
battle-tested predators do not struggle with humans, in fact they easily slaughter hordes of xenomorphs, and I just finished reading a novel in which one predator kills over 150 soldiers in Southeast Asia...

Well man, I frickin hate Space Marine fluff, and I love Predator fluff, so I'm done arguing. I will say this though, for the one piece of film fluff you have showing the bad side of movie marines, the EU is going to heavily favor SMs in this subject. I have never read any comic or novel that depicts the same level of awesome GW has written into SM fluff.

While I would love to watch Predators pike the heads of SMs, the fact that SMs fight things like Necrons is going to give the typical Marine a pretty large advantage.

A major disadvantage for the Yautja is the apparent lack of armour. A shot from a bolt pistol, which is designed to explode inside its target, will finish it off in short order. The same goes for close combat, while the Predator's weapons should have little problem finding weak points in the armour and sinking his blade in, the SM can handle that kind of damage. The Predator, on the other hand, doesn't look to me like it can handle a chainsword digging into his chest. COmbat wise you could say they are fairly equal, but the Predator simply doesn't look like he can take the same deal of damage.

The only chance it would have would be to keep it's distance, hope to hell the SM can't detect him immediately, and try to take him out with his shoulder cannon.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Simply put, a Space Marine is a soldier who from conception to final realization, is the apex of human warfare. He is the embodiment of war perfected from a human standpoint, for a massive war the likes of which decides the fate of a galaxy. Considering these super soldiers utterly crushed an entire galaxy into total submission with incredible feats of tactical brutality, I'd find it hard to imagine a Xeno that hunts and struggles to defeat average men on earth in the 1980s, would stand a chance at hell at defeating a single marine. A marine that would make the protagonists of both the Pred films and comics look like children.

I doubt many would argue that if it came to a war between large numbers of Space Marines and Predators that the Predators would win. Space Marines are soldiers, the height of what it means to be a warrior. I've little doubt that they would curbstomp a larger Predator force into oblivion.

However, we are talking about one Space Marine and one Predator. This isn't a battle or war, it's a hunt. The Predator is in his element here (though I still think his chances are flimsy).

BeefCakeSoup wrote:so I'm done arguing.

I think a good vs. thread should be more about good-natured discussion and less about bashing the other side

I will say this though, for the one piece of film fluff you have showing the bad side of movie marines, the EU is going to heavily favor SMs in this subject.

the Dawn of War cinematic and the Ultramarines movie are the two weakest portrayals of SM I know of
the movie Predators also has very unimpressive predators

Emperors Faithful wrote:Combat wise you could say they are fairly equal, but the Predator simply doesn't look like he can take the same deal of damage.

yes, the SM's power armour definitely gives him an advantage in durability

The only chance it would have would be to keep it's distance, hope to hell the SM can't detect him immediately, and try to take him out with his shoulder cannon.

I don't think it would be too hard to keep distance
predators can leap like crazy and they run very fast (I have scans of a predator pacing a speeding car and leaping over a 30-40ft fence)

I've little doubt that they would curbstomp a larger Predator force into oblivion.

I don't know about that actually
the predators are pretty advanced and their military branch is no joke

a company of marines prepped for war (with all the heavy firepower and vehicles) would definitely beat a predator hunting party

A company of Marines prepped for war pretty much beats everything.

And if it didn't?

The Inquisition rolls up a fleet in orbit and the Lord Inquisitor on the bridge of the flagship gives a nod, presses a button, and the Pred-Planet disappears in a cloud of nuclear fire, which is then doubly-swept by life-eating viruses... or maybe the viruses come first, then they cleanse it with fire. Nuclear fire.

Either way, Pred-gear or no Pred-gear, there's nothing that survives Exterminatus.

b1soul wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Combat wise you could say they are fairly equal, but the Predator simply doesn't look like he can take the same deal of damage.

yes, the SM's power armour definitely gives him an advantage in durability

Even if the Space Marine was stark naked, I'd say he'd still be more durable than a Predator. Short of decapation, SM's don't die easy.

The only chance it would have would be to keep it's distance, hope to hell the SM can't detect him immediately, and try to take him out with his shoulder cannon.

I don't think it would be too hard to keep distance
predators can leap like crazy and they run very fast (I have scans of a predator pacing a speeding car and leaping over a 30-40ft fence)

Yes, I've considered that. But all the Space Marine would need is one good bolt shot, and Space Marines are expert marksmen.

I've little doubt that they would curbstomp a larger Predator force into oblivion.

I don't know about that actually
the predators are pretty advanced and their military branch is no joke

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the Predator Military Branch. But Predator culture always struck me as less 'cohesive' than fighting forces such as Space Marines. The advantage that Space Marines would have is that, while ferocious and utterly fearless in the face of death, they would fight together and as a single mass of ceramite balls.

IHO, there's ussually a difference between a Warrior and a Soldier, and in the greater scheme of things Soldiers will win out.

a company of marines prepped for war (with all the heavy firepower and vehicles) would definitely beat a predator hunting party

I can't recall what the make-up of a Predator Hunting party is. If you're saying somewhere between 3-12 Predators, they don't stand a chance (short of running and hiding). If we're talking about numbers where they'll be a Predator for every Space Marine things look a little more shaky.

When I was talking about larger forces I meant more along the lnes of Chapter sizes.

Emperors Faithful wrote:A major disadvantage for the Yautja is the apparent lack of armour. A shot from a bolt pistol, which is designed to explode inside its target, will finish it off in short order. The same goes for close combat, while the Predator's weapons should have little problem finding weak points in the armour and sinking his blade in, the SM can handle that kind of damage. The Predator, on the other hand, doesn't look to me like it can handle a chainsword digging into his chest. COmbat wise you could say they are fairly equal, but the Predator simply doesn't look like he can take the same deal of damage.

The only chance it would have would be to keep it's distance, hope to hell the SM can't detect him immediately, and try to take him out with his shoulder cannon.

All good points. One must remember, though, that Yautja armor is a lot stronger than it appears; it can resist xenomorph acid, which is capable of burning through multiple decks of a ship. Whether that's a result of its hardness, or just a special treating, I don't know. If it's the former, a bolt pistol might not penetrate, the latter, it's going to make things very difficult for the Predator. As for close combat, Yautja are extremely intelligent, and given the fact that their visors can detect the fusion reactor powering the SM's armor, that would be its first target.

Psienesis wrote:A company of Marines prepped for war pretty much beats everything.

And if it didn't?

The Inquisition rolls up a fleet in orbit and the Lord Inquisitor on the bridge of the flagship gives a nod, presses a button, and the Pred-Planet disappears in a cloud of nuclear fire, which is then doubly-swept by life-eating viruses... or maybe the viruses come first, then they cleanse it with fire. Nuclear fire.

Either way, Pred-gear or no Pred-gear, there's nothing that survives Exterminatus.

There are different kinds of ways to commit Exterminatus (and I doubt they would use both Cyclonic Torpedoes and Virus Bombs) but Tyranid Organisms have been known to survive some.


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Nerivant wrote:All good points. One must remember, though, that Yautja armor is a lot stronger than it appears; it can resist xenomorph acid, which is capable of burning through multiple decks of a ship. Whether that's a result of its hardness, or just a special treating, I don't know. If it's the former, a bolt pistol might not penetrate, the latter, it's going to make things very difficult for the Predator.

It's not such much the quality of the armour, but the apparent lack of coverage from it. A space marine is covered head to toe in some of the finest armour the Imperium can offer. A Predator has...what? A chest plate and the odd shoulder covered? All fine and well for gladitorial combat, but not worth much when the Space Marine only has to point at exposed flesh to eviscerate the insides of the Predator wherever he shoots.

As for close combat, Yautja are extremely intelligent, and given the fact that their visors can detect the fusion reactor powering the SM's armor, that would be its first target.

Space Marine power armour is actually very different from other makes of Power Armour (which would indeed rely on the reactor alone). There is the black carapace in addition, which essentially means that a Space Marine's power armour doesn't end up becoming his tomb. However, even if it was such a major weakness, how would the Predator go about damaging it?

Psienesis wrote:A company of Marines prepped for war pretty much beats everything.

in the SM codex and other SM-centric fluff they always win of course
but I'm pretty sure they've also had their fair share of losses against Eldar, Orks, Chaos, Nids, even Tau etc.

And if it didn't? The Inquisition rolls up a fleet in orbit and the Lord Inquisitor on the bridge of the flagship gives a nod, presses a button, and the Pred-Planet disappears in a cloud of nuclear fire, which is then doubly-swept by life-eating viruses... or maybe the viruses come first, then they cleanse it with fire. Nuclear fire.

what you're talking about is essentially the Imperium vs. the predator species
I have no idea how many planets the predators control...it's been suggested in the predator fluff that they're mainly nomadic (maybe with a number of colonies)
anyway, this thread is about 1 pred vs. 1 marine under the given circumstances

I think I may have exalted my own post.

b1soul wrote:what you're talking about is essentially the Imperium vs. the predator species
I have no idea how many planets the predators control...it's been suggested in the predator fluff that they're mainly nomadic (maybe with a number of colonies)
anyway, this thread is about 1 pred vs. 1 marine under the given circumstances

Then it really doesn't look good for them (against the Imperium). A single decisive space battle (and Predators, while powerful for their size) don't seem to excel at that sort of thing when the forces of the Imperium are taken into account, could spell destruction for their race.

The better question is who would win between a Predator and the "Space Jockey" from Alien!

+5 pts if you know the reference without google!

+10 pts if Prometheus makes you excited!

Wouldn't lictors have similar skill and ability to the predators.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Even if the Space Marine was stark naked, I'd say he'd still be more durable than a Predator. Short of decapation, SM's don't die easy.

I've just finished reading Predator South China Sea
in the novel, the predator recalls being impaled through the chest by a venomous metal worm (described as twice the predator's size)
the predator cuts off the worm's head and tail and then continues to hunt for another four hours with the remaining segment of the worm still lodged inside his chest
in addition, an explosive-tipped bullet from a sniper rifle cuts through "several" of the predator's "vital organs", but the damage is described as "nothing irreversible"

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the Predator Military Branch. But Predator culture always struck me as less 'cohesive' than fighting forces such as Space Marines. The advantage that Space Marines would have is that, while ferocious and utterly fearless in the face of death, they would fight together and as a single mass of ceramite balls.

just FYI
some predator military weapons:
- the plasma scythe (an energy weapon used in melee)

- blazer cannons (shoulder cannons that fire sustained beams of energy that sweeps around cutting things in half)

- hydras cannons (shoulder cannons that fire either surges of energy at multiple opponents or swarms of missiles...no idea how they work )

- disc launcher (launches three discs at one target, each disc has a nanovibronic edged high-speed molecular chainsaw around the circumference)

If we're talking about numbers where they'll be a Predator for every Space Marine things look a little more shaky.

I was referring to a roughly equivalent number of predators in hunting gear

Then it really doesn't look good for them (against the Imperium). A single decisive space battle (and Predators, while powerful for their size) don't seem to excel at that sort of thing when the forces of the Imperium are taken into account, could spell destruction for their race.

I think predicting an Imperium vs. predator species conflict would involve too much speculation
we simple don't know enough about the predators

the Imperium most likely has a massive size advantage
but how would the predators respond, would they simply try to avoid the Imperium and stay hidden (sort of like Craftworld Eldar)?

Prometheus is the prequel that wasn't a prequel. We've no confirmation that it any way involves the Space Jockey. I am disappoint.

in the SM codex and other SM-centric fluff they always win of course
but I'm pretty sure they've also had their fair share of losses against Eldar, Orks, Chaos, Nids, even Tau etc.

Yes, SM have suffered losses, they're not unbeatable.

But when was the last time an entire Chapter went to war together and lost?

There are different kinds of ways to commit Exterminatus (and I doubt they would use both Cyclonic Torpedoes and Virus Bombs) but Tyranid Organisms have been known to survive some.

That just means they used the wrong kind of Exterminatus for the task at hand. Right tool for the right job and such.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Space Marine power armour is actually very different from other makes of Power Armour (which would indeed rely on the reactor alone). There is the black carapace in addition, which essentially means that a Space Marine's power armour doesn't end up becoming his tomb. However, even if it was such a major weakness, how would the Predator go about damaging it?

If I recall, in one of the Blood Angels books, the cables between the backpack and the armor were severed, and while he was able to move, he wasn't able to fight. Slash the cables, and the Space Marine is not going to be able to fight back well enough to defend himself.

I found a site with better descriptions of predator military classes from the game AvP Extinction
here's an example for any of you guys who are curious
Vanguard Predator
Description
A clan's most seasoned close combat veterans become Vanguards. The Vanguard has both the honor and the responsibility of leading the clans melee assaults. Unlike other melee Predators, the Vanguard is well armored and carries an advanced weapon of awesome potency: the plasma scythe. The scythe's energy blade cannot be stopped by normal matter - a crucial attribute - given that the Vanguard is honor bound to directly engage the clan's most dangerous enemies.
Default Weapon - Plasma Scythe
According to Predator law, this eminently dangerous weapon can only be wielded by those who have earned the right to bear it. When it strikes, its blade leaves wounds filled with seething dark plasma. Dark plasma triggers a controlled energy reaction that causes damage in proportion to the mass of the target, enabling the weapon to kill any enemy, regardless of its power, with no more than four hits.
Upgrade - Killscreen Generator
Given its duty to lead the charge against even technically advanced enemies, the Vanguard requires a defensive system to protect against enemy fire. That system is the killscreen generator. This projection spines on this weapon emit unstable streams of dark plasma particles that vaporize incoming enemy projectiles. The killscreen can only vaporize so much mass per unit time, however, enabling enemies to overwhelm the system with large numbers of projectiles.

Regardless of strength, no enemy can withstand four closely timed plasma scythe strikes. Hence, four Vanguards make for a particularly lethal heavy assault force, since they can kill any single enemy almost instantly. When upgraded, the Vanguard additionally becomes an excellent defensive choice, shielding other Predators from enemy fire and even leaping Facehuggers.

b1soul wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote: Even if the Space Marine was stark naked, I'd say he'd still be more durable than a Predator. Short of decapation, SM's don't die easy.

I've just finished reading Predator South China Sea
in the novel, the predator recalls being impaled through the chest by a venomous metal worm (described as twice the predator's size)
the predator cuts off the worm's head and tail and then continues to hunt for another four hours with the remaining segment of the worm still lodged inside his chest

Being impaled in that manner isn't actually as bad as a wound from, say, being hacked at by a chainsaw. With the metal worm, at least that blocks the bleeding somewhat if you keep it in.

I'm not sure if you've read up on BL fluff, but they are crazy when it comes to taking damage.

in addition, an explosive-tipped bullet from a sniper rifle cuts through "several" of the predator's "vital organs", but the damage is described as "nothing irreversible"

I would imagine this was more a comment on the advanced medical techniques of the Predators, rather than his durability. Or did he continue to fight for a few hours after that?

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the Predator Military Branch. But Predator culture always struck me as less 'cohesive' than fighting forces such as Space Marines. The advantage that Space Marines would have is that, while ferocious and utterly fearless in the face of death, they would fight together and as a single mass of ceramite balls.

just FYI
some predator military weapons:
- the plasma scythe (an energy weapon used in melee)

- blazer cannons (shoulder cannons that fire sustained beams of energy that sweeps around cutting things in half)

- hydras cannons (shoulder cannons that fire either surges of energy at multiple opponents or swarms of missiles...no idea how they work )

- disc launcher (launches three discs at one target, each disc has a nanovibronic edged high-speed molecular chainsaw around the circumference)

Okay, now I know what you're talking about, I wasn't sure if you were talking about the comics military (which I haven't really seen a lot of) or the games military (which I have).

Like I said, although they have advanced tech and are excellent warriors, there is way too much of a clan mentality for them to actually conduct a war effectively.

If we're talking about numbers where they'll be a Predator for every Space Marine things look a little more shaky.

I was referring to a roughly equivalent number of predators in hunting gear

If the Space Marines have access to the gear and vehichles they normally would, it's a clear win for them. If they've somehow lost all their equipment/vehichles/orbital support then it becomes interesting/awesome.

Then it really doesn't look good for them (against the Imperium). A single decisive space battle (and Predators, while powerful for their size) don't seem to excel at that sort of thing when the forces of the Imperium are taken into account, could spell destruction for their race.

I think predicting an Imperium vs. predator species conflict would involve too much speculation
we simple don't know enough about the predators

the Imperium most likely has a massive size advantage
but how would the predators respond, would they simply try to avoid the Imperium and stay hidden (sort of like Craftworld Eldar)?

The problem with that would be that Craftworld Eldar don't rely on worlds...at all really. Of course, there are countless alien races in the 40k universe that the Imperium simply can't concentrate against without giving ground elsewhere. Predators (if they existed in the 40k universe) could well carve out their own little empire and, so long as they never outright attacked the Imperium, would likely go ignored for millenia.

Of course, when the disappearence of Imperial Guard around outposts in the sector area becomes noticable, and the companies sent to investiage fail to respond, attitudes might change. Especially if the Predators killed anyone important.


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Nerivant wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Space Marine power armour is actually very different from other makes of Power Armour (which would indeed rely on the reactor alone). There is the black carapace in addition, which essentially means that a Space Marine's power armour doesn't end up becoming his tomb. However, even if it was such a major weakness, how would the Predator go about damaging it?

If I recall, in one of the Blood Angels books, the cables between the backpack and the armor were severed, and while he was able to move, he wasn't able to fight. Slash the cables, and the Space Marine is not going to be able to fight back well enough to defend himself.

This better not be the same book where a Terminator does a backflip.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
This better not be the same book where a Terminator does a backflip.

I don't remember ANY Terminators, actually. I don't have the book on me, I remember it being fairly large. Blood Angels Omnibus, probably.

SM. No contest.

FuryTheBerserker wrote:SM. No contest.

Posts like this are one of the reasons these threads don't work. Mind providing some insight into how you reached that conclusion?

now that I think of it, I think a Vanguard Predator vs. a Terminator would be an interesting fight
that dark plasma scythe is very powerful (ignored normal matter and destroys anything within 4 hits), and the killscreen would be good against bolt rounds

Emperors Faithful wrote:Being impaled in that manner isn't actually as bad as a wound from, say, being hacked at by a chainsaw. With the metal worm, at least that blocks the bleeding somewhat if you keep it in.
I'm not sure if you've read up on BL fluff, but they are crazy when it comes to taking damage.

yeah I've read quite a bit of BL fluff but right now I can't recall a scene where a SM takes massive damage...I just read Fall of Damnos, and one marine goes into hibernation after being hurt badly (I might have to flip though my books)
could you refresh my memory?

I would imagine this was more a comment on the advanced medical techniques of the Predators, rather than his durability. Or did he continue to fight for a few hours after that?

he continues to fight on for some time after that (doesn't say exactly how long)...
the predator considers the sniper wound less serious than the wound he sustained from the metal worm

Okay, now I know what you're talking about, I wasn't sure if you were talking about the comics military (which I haven't really seen a lot of) or the games military (which I have).

the only comic book "military" gear I've come across is a predator bazooka and predator "burners" (big plasma rifles held with two hands)
they seemed more like heavy hunting gear than actual military-grade gear

The problem with that would be that Craftworld Eldar don't rely on worlds...at all really. Of course, there are countless alien races in the 40k universe that the Imperium simply can't concentrate against without giving ground elsewhere. Predators (if they existed in the 40k universe) could well carve out their own little empire and, so long as they never outright attacked the Imperium, would likely go ignored for millenia. Of course, when the disappearence of Imperial Guard around outposts in the sector area becomes noticable, and the companies sent to investiage fail to respond, attitudes might change. Especially if the Predators killed anyone important.

in the AvP EU, the Yautja avoid revealing themselves to humans (they try to avoid any direct contact)
they'll hunt humans sure, but they do their best to kill everyone and not reveal their existence

Nerivant wrote:Posts like this are one of the reasons these threads don't work. Mind providing some insight into how you reached that conclusion?

indeed

With the predator's stats and equipment, there is little doubt it would make short work of the SM. However, it would also be worth much more points than a lonely SM assault sarge. Maybe if the SM had a plasma pistol, melta bombs and then a power weapon or power fist it would be fairer?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:With the predator's stats and equipment, there is little doubt it would make short work of the SM. However, it would also be worth much more points than a lonely SM assault sarge. Maybe if the SM had a plasma pistol, melta bombs and then a power weapon or power fist it would be fairer?

the predator only has partial body armour
I don't think giving the sergeant a power sword and a plasma pistol would make much of a difference

By putting the Marine in a cat and mouse situation you have put him in a situation where the Predator is at a clear advantage. As they live for the hunt when Marine's live for war. In a straight up fight the marine destroys, but in the situation you described the sergeant would likely end up being shot in the back by a burst of plasma. All of these cross universe vs. threads are too situational and you might as well flip a coin because neither side is ever going to be able to get solid evidence that pertains to both universe at once.

Nicholas wrote:neither side is ever going to be able to get solid evidence that pertains to both universe at once.

you make a very good point and yes, that is an inherent problem with vs. threads: the sides don't share a common universe, thus there's no common evidence
but I think that as long as people explain their logic and debate in a good-natured manner without nerdrage these threads can be quite fun

yeah I did put the marine in a "cat and mouse" situation, I guess you could pit a squad of assault marines against a squad of vanguard predators, but not many people are familiar with the military predators from the AvP strategy game