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Dakkadood wrote:Some of the people who argue for Predators are citing text that clearly depicts them as borderline-marysue aliens. Going by that, its only fair to call into the battle the likes of Mephiston, Calgar and Draigo... yeah gg Predators, not gonna happen.

And space marine fluff totally doesn't describe them as mary sues?

b1soul wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Being impaled in that manner isn't actually as bad as a wound from, say, being hacked at by a chainsaw. With the metal worm, at least that blocks the bleeding somewhat if you keep it in.
I'm not sure if you've read up on BL fluff, but they are crazy when it comes to taking damage.

yeah I've read quite a bit of BL fluff but right now I can't recall a scene where a SM takes massive damage...I just read Fall of Damnos, and one marine goes into hibernation after being hurt badly (I might have to flip though my books)
could you refresh my memory?

Actually, I don't enjoy reading BL Space Marine books precisely because they come across as way too overpowered. A non-BL example woul be the Codex, where the Standard Bearer has his arm ripped off and fights for the rest of the day.

Severed limbs, shot and stab wounds clot up rapidly on their own, even during the middle of a fight, which is a distinct advantage if the Predator can't get breathing space to treat any injuries.

I would imagine this was more a comment on the advanced medical techniques of the Predators, rather than his durability. Or did he continue to fight for a few hours after that?

he continues to fight on for some time after that (doesn't say exactly how long)...
the predator considers the sniper wound less serious than the wound he sustained from the metal worm

Very strange use of the word 'vital' organ then. If you can survive without them, they're not vital. That's why a lot of SM organs are called redundant, becuase even if you stab him in the heart he's got another one.

Also, as another poster has said, an explosive-tipped bullet is different from a bolt shell. Honestly, if emptying a shotgun clip into it is enough to cause serious injury a bolt shell will tear it apart from the inside out.

Deadshot wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:A major disadvantage for the Yautja is the apparent lack of armour. A shot from a bolt pistol, which is designed to explode inside its target, will finish it off in short order. The same goes for close combat, while the Predator's weapons should have little problem finding weak points in the armour and sinking his blade in, the SM can handle that kind of damage. The Predator, on the other hand, doesn't look to me like it can handle a chainsword digging into his chest. COmbat wise you could say they are fairly equal, but the Predator simply doesn't look like he can take the same deal of damage.

What you are taking about are aliens that can lose an arm and regrow it,by applying burning crystals and keep going,even taking several,direct,close range shots from a pump action shot gun and get back up.

In the 40k verse, a pump action shotgun would be lucky to be considered as powerful as an autogun. When unarmoured human opponents get hit by bolt shells, they get ripped apart.

And when does a Predator regrow its arm?

Predators move fast, but against a space marine, they've met their match. Not only that, they have to fight someone far more cunning, brutal and relentless, someone who lives, breathes, and excretes war. When you go up against such a monster, your going to need a weapon that obliterates, not merely kills. However strong the predators may be, I really can't imagine them killing an Angel of Death that easily. These guys can rampage across a battlefield as if they were breaking blocks from a kids lego city.

b1soul wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:Space Marine Hands Down. Predators have been beaten by the Governor of Clalifornia, and a soft 50 years old LAPD cop, Batman... in fact I have yet to see ANY media where the Predator(s) have won....
So, yeah, Space Marine.

1) you didn't read the OP or failed to comprehend it
2) your "argument" is easily countered by "Gretchin can kill SM"

I don't make an argument dude. You asked for "opinions." You are free to ignore mine. As for me not comprehending the OP, You said quote "Not just movies" as reference, but what I can only guess is your "selected media" in which your Predator is not some Jamican Hashmaster with a bad complexion, and horrible dental problems who got whooped by Capt. Sam Cahill from Operation Dumbo Drop... So I also included the Predator vs. Batman, where good ole' Bruce Wayne whooped Predator as well.... then I gave my opinion.

So either you never read BvP by Dark Horse comics, or you just have a fan-boi chubster for Predator.

Either way. Space Marine. Hands down.

Connor McKane wrote:I have yet to see ANY media where the Predator(s) have won...

So... you clearly don't know enough about the Yautja to make an educated decision. Your assumption that the Space Marine would win is based on willfully incomplete knowledge.

Nerivant wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:I have yet to see ANY media where the Predator(s) have won...

So... you clearly don't know enough about the Yautja to make an educated decision. Your assumption that the Space Marine would win is based on willfully incomplete knowledge.

I may not rub one out to my Yautja of the month calendar, but I know enough about them that a Space Marine would kick a Predator's lilly-white arse.

If you weren't going to allow anyone to say "Space Marine Wins." Then you probably shouldn't ask for peoples opinion.

....Oh look! AvP is on Netflix! You boys better go grab some happy tissues.

Connor McKane wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:I have yet to see ANY media where the Predator(s) have won...

So... you clearly don't know enough about the Yautja to make an educated decision. Your assumption that the Space Marine would win is based on willfully incomplete knowledge.

I may not rub one out to my Yautja of the month calendar, but I know enough about them that a Space Marine would kick a Predator's lilly-white arse.

If you weren't going to allow anyone to say "Space Marine Wins." Then you probably shouldn't ask for peoples opinion.

....Oh look! AvP is on Netflix! You boys better go grab some happy tissues.

Saying 'Space Marines win, because X and Y, in comparison to A and B, when you take into account the differences in their C and D,' I'm fine with. That's the point of this thread.

Insulting other posters and posting the equivalent of "SPESS MAHREENS WHIN CUZ DEY R 4 FITE" is not what this thread is for.

Nerivant wrote:Insulting other posters and posting the equivalent of "SPESS MAHREENS WHIN CUZ DEY R 4 FITE" is not what this thread is for.

but... dey are NOT 4 fite? - Your argument is a falacy. You say - "Ignore everything but these specific Media Items which portray Predators as unbeatable badasses. I know we said Comics could be included, but ignore the ones where the Predators are soundly beaten."

Who did I insult? If you loves you some Predator, you should be proud of who you are. If you luvs you some SPESS MAHREENS, be proud of that too. Don't go all poindexter in a post about "not knowing enough about the Mujahadeen or Yaun-tijanana or whatever...." to post here. You dont own the interwebs.

This thread obviously doesn't want "Opinions" you should have made a statement that "Predators could kick a Space Marine's ass" and then took a defnesive position and tired to be mis-proven.

Lets just ignore the fact that these two things you are matching up aren't even in the same UNIVERSE. We have not physical or technological basis in which to base ANY argument, since both things are FICTIONAL, and video game evidence does not constitute a valid argument....But if they were in the same universe, they would have an Ordo Xenos / Deathwatch bootheel up their scaly backsides right now. - IMO

I could also have said - "Don't come in my Imperium of Man with some predetermined weak "Predator is awesomesauce argument." Space Marines, deyiz For Fight."

But I wont do that.

Love yoooooou.

Connor McKane wrote:
Don't go all poindexter in a post about "not knowing enough about the Mujahadeen or Yaun-tijanana or whatever...." to post here. You dont own the interwebs.

This thread obviously doesn't want "Opinions" you should have made a statement that "Predators could kick a Space Marine's ass" and then took a defnesive position and tired to be mis-proven.

Lets just ignore the fact that these two things you are matching up aren't even in the same UNIVERSE.

Never said that.

Didn't make this thread.

I'm not matching up anything.

Love you too. This is fun for me.

spess mehreens deyiz 4 fite
Thus a potential meme was born

I think if in the same universe that the predators could be wiped as a whole, because they seem to have that whole lone hunter thing going, but i don't know much about their military.

If they were in the same system however, would alien be in the same system it'd be like having 2 different armies of tyranids

b1soul wrote:a lone space marine is stalked by a predator in the empty ruins of a 40k city (think an empty Armageddon)

the predator is from the Predator/AvP expanded universe (i.e. novels, comics, and video games)
in other words, he's much better than the movie predators (sort of like the difference between marines from the recent Ultramarines movie and marines from Black Library novels)

- the predator is an elite veteran hunter (around 500 years experience)

- the marine is a veteran assault squad sergeant (from your favourite SM chapter)

predator physical stats
height: 8'2" or 2.5m (see novel AvP Prey)
weight: ~500lbs

predator equipment
dual shoulder cannons, smart disc, pole-arm, proximity mines, dual wrist blades
near-invisibility, multiple vision modes, amplified hearing

marine physical stats
height: 8'0" (tends to vary depending on the authour)
weight: I'm guessing around 1000lbs in power armour

marine equipment
chainsword, bolt pistol, frag grenades, combat blade
power armour

who wins?
please try to cite sources in your argument when claiming specific feats

Is this a joke, really?
Predator is so much overpowered. Like putting a Grey Knight Terminator against Tau Fire Warrior.
I will not use any source because this is obvious. On range Marine has no chance ( I mean dual shoulder cannons, really? That's two plasma hits and one hit is 6000+ C [plasma standard temperature]). Marine only chance is to get into melee combat ( but chance for that in low since Predator have smart disc witch can track the marine down + the shoulder cannons can track a marine by heat signature [not if marine is veering a helmet but who knows - maybe they have some vision to see marine armor liek they see our heat]). And even in melee it will be thought fight ( 500 years of experience for Predator ), and Predator has dual wrist blades while Marine has 1 Chainsword and 1 blade - real equal ( it would be if Marine have 2x power claws ). All in all - chances are 75% for Predator - 25% for Space Marine.

Another Imperial hate thread....

I agree, from the post, the predetor gets a whole armory, and the marine gets all the stuff that was hanging on his belt... Give him a boltgun at least, or preferably a combi-weapon, and a fist/power weapon and now we can call it equal.

For both guys,older=more expieriancerd.More expierianced=better gear.
But even a mastercrafted chainsword has trouble cutting armoured plates,while predator wristblades,especially ones from an old predator,are designed to cleace armour in two.The predator can throw spears and discs with eniough force to split a man apart and the disc has a nanovibronic edge to rip apart armoured targets from the inside.The predator's plasma casters have much better range than a bolt pistol and he has 2.The predator is trained to be stealthy.He is much faster and probably better at hand-to-hand.He has that nuke,which every hunting predator must carry at all times when hunting.It contains the constriting net as well.He fires that,fires a few close range plasma shots and and a spear to the neck would not only kill the space marine,but destroy the geneseed in his neck.

Prtedator's are trained to hunt individuals,and excel at this.Space marines are military and are supposed to rely on their battlebrothers.

If you put a "Big Game" hunter against an elite soldier in a fight, generally speaking I would think the hunter is going to get his butt fragged every time. Now if the marine has no idea he is being hunted then maybe it works out for the predator but otherwise I think the Predator is getting himself killed.

Assuming all the various soldiers and cops in the predator sources are the equivalent of even Veteran Guardsmen the Space Marine would seem to be a much tougher opponent for the Predator and more than a match for him.

Predators seek only to hunt the best of the best in each race.The don't fight unarmed or wounded/crippled opponents unless they attack them or are the prey themselves.They don't only hunt humans.They hunt any other race for sport.So even if they were matched by the marine they wouldn't be too thrown because they have probably fought tougher opponents.Even the most basic of predator equipment is powerful enough to tear apart walls of starships with ease.

Doesnt seem like a space marine would have to fight a pred on his own, seems like he would have a tactical or veteran squad to back him up...

SngrFghtr wrote:Doesnt seem like a space marine would have to fight a pred on his own, seems like he would have a tactical or veteran squad to back him up...

This IMO is the real strength of a Space Marine. Just like the Greek Spartans of old. A warriors strength comes not from his own flesh, but that of the man to his left and to his right.

Space Marines are not designed to fight one on one. Yeah, it happens, and SM are very competent fighters on their own, but where their doctrine and training really take top form is when in kill teams or small group tactics. The only chapter that has anything close one on one specialists (going by fluff here) seems to be Space Wolves and Grey Knights.

So yeah, in a one on one fight, I'm gonna give the nod to the Preditor. He just has too many weapons and options that are designed for the single man hunt. He only has to camouflage himself. He only has to worry about his own position. It why they employ a separate and destroy hunting style.

But on planet bowling ball, at range, I'd say they are equal. SM armor could not hold up to his shoulder plasma, and the predator would get blown up from a SM issued bolt round. Both have equal tech when it comes to targeting help and probably BS skill. Now give the SM an auspex and he should also know where to shoot.

The difference is in HTH combat. If an ork choppa can get through SM armor, so can any weapon the Preditor chooses to wield. It also wouldn't matter if the SM had a force weapon or a simple combat knife. The Preditor doesn't wear much armor anyway. So here it boils down to toughness and who strikes first. Both are equally tough, but just due to the nature of a Preditors ambush type nature and his cloaking ability, I'm gonna give it first strike. Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

Now, Space wolves on the other hand change the situation. With counter strike and acute senses the SW will know when the attack is coming and not care if he walked into it. His reactions will allow for him to get his licks in. In fact I think most SW would prefer it that way. Then its just a matter of who cut deeper.

Yeah, I'm a Preditor and SW fanboy. Deal with it.

Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

The SM auspex is built into their helmets, it's not a hand-held unit.

In melee between these two... well, that's really too close to call. Yes, the Pred is very skilled at ambushes, but an SM's reflexes are super-human. While the Pred might get to launch the first attack... it still has to land the hit.

A Pred leaping through the air from behind cover to carve an SM's head off might suddenly find his blade-bearing arms pinned in the power-armored grip of the Marine... and those big fists are going to crush the Pred's arms into glowing yellow paste. Even not doing that, the SM has several options to deal with the Pred in melee. A nice headbutt that smashes the Pred's mask into its skull is one option. Spitting acid in its face is another.

Once the fight is joined in close quarters, it's going to come down to gear really. While a Pred's weapons are, indeed, fine... so are power weapons. An SM carrying a standard power sword only has to parry the Pred's armblades twice... once for each arm. The Pred is going to lose the blades on each parry.

Remember that a Pred relies on its relatively light armor to maintain speed and grace... an SM does not He wears his PA like a second skin. We have no empirical data about the Pred's own strength in relation to an Ork. We know Preds are strong compared to regular humans... but, then, so are Orks. Perhaps more so. Just because an Ork Choppa *can* penetrate PA doesn't mean it does so easily, or every time. Same with the Pred's armblades. It might penetrate PA. It might not. It might penetrate on a glancing hit, it might not.

Also, the SM, even with just a combat knife might choose to "sheath the sword" as the maneuver is called. The Pred gets in close, buries its wrist blades in the SM's chest. The Pred, probably not knowing anything about SM physiology, assumes the fight is over because, hey, stab a human through the heart and both lungs generally kills it, right?

Surprise, crab-face, I've got a spare lung and an extra heart. Here's a half-meter of Space Marine Combat Knife through your ear-hole, as you were obliging enough to get so close.

Too close a battle to call, really.

Psienesis wrote:

Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

The SM auspex is built into their helmets, it's not a hand-held unit.

Then how come you get a hand held on the Devastator frame?

Deadshot wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

The SM auspex is built into their helmets, it's not a hand-held unit.

Then how come you get a hand held on the Devastator frame?

Rule of cool.

Deadshot wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

The SM auspex is built into their helmets, it's not a hand-held unit.

Then how come you get a hand held on the Devastator frame?

The device enhances the one in his helmet.

Who told you that?
And how does that make sense?
1+1=1 better one?
1+1=2 of the same auspex!

It's a more powerful Auspex.

Why not just give the marine that one in the helmet then?It just encumbers his 2 handed ability.

I have no idea why they issue Marines hand-held auspex, their helmets are supposed to contain all of that nifty tech and more, besides.

Oh, wait, now I remember....

Marines seem to have a bad habit of losing their helmets.

Marine armour can detect cloaking devices that make people invisible, see horus rising when Loken is fighting the invisibles. So i would guess that modern power armour would be more than capable of detecting a predator. The Pred would get in close believing himself to be invisible, the marine would see him and shoot him. Note/ exaggeration. I don't think it would be that easy, but it could potentially turn out that way.

When has a marine evr lost his helmet?Why on Terra would they take it off in a battle?

Psienesis wrote:

Even if the marine had an auspex he is going to be down one CCW/pistol reducing his effectiveness in the fight to come.

The SM auspex is built into their helmets, it's not a hand-held unit.

In melee between these two... well, that's really too close to call. Yes, the Pred is very skilled at ambushes, but an SM's reflexes are super-human. While the Pred might get to launch the first attack... it still has to land the hit.

You have to remove some of the plot armor around the SM. After all they never loose to anything other than other SM. They are GWs poster child for a reason. I'm assuming that the Preditors and SM reflexes are about the same. Thus giving them the same enhanced (compaired to humans) iniative.

Even not doing that, the SM has several options to deal with the Pred in melee. A nice headbutt that smashes the Pred's mask into its skull is one option. Spitting acid in its face is another.

Preditors all wear helmets that are resistant to Alien (Xenomorph) blood acid. I just don't see SM acid spit being stronger. I'm also assuming both are on pretty equal toughness (higher than an average human but nothing stupidly ridiculous) As for headbutting. The preditors enlarged skull suggests thicker stuff than just bone. Probably not all that fragile. I think both would get an equal headache.

Once the fight is joined in close quarters, it's going to come down to gear really. While a Pred's weapons are, indeed, fine... so are power weapons. An SM carrying a standard power sword only has to parry the Pred's armblades twice... once for each arm. The Pred is going to lose the blades on each parry.

Why are we giving the SM power weapons? The only thing I've ever seen on Vet Sarges are P-fists However, power weapons aren't really needed. The SM just needs to bring something that can cut fishnet, a standard chain sword or combat knife will be more than necessary. The Preditor doesn't rely on armor for protection. It why they have sophisticated cammo and strike first attitude. I'd be willing to bet Billy in the first Preditor movie didn't even get to swing his machete.

Why don't we stick with the gear listed in the OP?That's what we got,that's all they are getting.

You have to remove some of the plot armor around the SM.

Why? We're providing the Predator with all sorts of Plot Armor in this theoretical battle, drawing the fluff only from those products wherein the Predator is the main character or, at least, on the side of the Humans who are the main characters (as in the AvP comic books of the mid 90s), and not the bad guys getting their scaly asses kicked all over LA or the Amazon or Antarctica.

Preditors all wear helmets that are resistant to Alien (Xenomorph) blood acid. I just don't see SM acid spit being stronger. I'm also assuming both are on pretty equal toughness (higher than an average human but nothing stupidly ridiculous) As for headbutting. The preditors enlarged skull suggests thicker stuff than just bone. Probably not all that fragile. I think both would get an equal headache.

Then spit the acid on the Pred's throat-sacs where the helmet-mask doesn't cover. Aww, poor Predy, your esophagus has just dissolved! That hurts like a bitch, don't it? Spit acid on the lens, or power cable, of its plasma-cannon. Spit acid on the top of its head, where all his natty dreads are hanging, as its helmet obviously isn't there. Hell, spit acid anywhere you can think of to spit acid, it's some nasty stuff.

... though, not in every case does Pred armor stop xenomorph acid. Some does, some doesn't, seems to be based on the relative standing of the Pred in question.

As far as the density of bone is concerned... not really an issue. If the helmet buckles, it probably stops functioning, at least in part, and may drive an edge of this super-advanced-metal into something sensitive, like Pred mouth-parts, an eyeball, the cleft of the brow-ridge... the brain. You know, the hurty bits.

As far as toughness goes? Yes... Space Marines are stupidly, ridiculously tough. They lose limbs and continue combat, perhaps even picking their arm up off the ground to beat some heretic or xeno scum to death with.

I'd be willing to bet Billy in the first Preditor movie didn't even get to swing his machete.

Billy wasn't a Space Marine.

The Preditor doesn't rely on armor for protection. It why they have sophisticated cammo and strike first attitude

Indeed, which may be its undoing in battle against a Space Marine.