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Well,in games,they can,and they can at some point in fluff.


I mentioned the Smartdisc.

Deadshot wrote:Well,in games,they can,and they can at some point in fluff.


I mentioned the Smartdisc.

Game stats are just that, game stats, they are there so that it makes for a balanced game and also to sell models, if Space marines performed on the tabletop like their fluff, a tactical squad would be around 2000 points. In the fluff, Marines are absolute monsters.
I will quote about the psychological effect of seeing a space marine has on a regular human (remember that Arnold in the predator movies would be equal to a weak Catachan jungle fighter str/toughness 3)

Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. he'd heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armorured like a demigod. The singuilarity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn't annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.

But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving at the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die, and if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to yourself first." (Dan Abnett, Little Horus)

The person above talking about how a spear through a leg would cripple a space marine, not likely, even taking off a limb wouldn't stop one, as their blood is designed to seal over the stump almost instantly, In fact he would probably break the spear in half, and if you happened to take off one of his limbs, he would beat you the predator to death with it before limping back to the apothecary to get the flesh wounds patched up.

The predator is obscenely strong in the films.In AVP,1 predator manages to hold back an Alien Queen by a length of chain.The Queen got away cause the chain snapped,so the predator was succeeding.I would like to see a SM tie up a Hive Tyrant with a chain and hold it down.

Deadshot wrote:I mentioned the Smartdisc.

ah, I must've missed it

Norsehawk wrote:remember that Arnold in the predator movies would be equal to a weak Catachan jungle fighter

let's not focus too much on the movies since I did mention in the OP that the predator in this fight is from the expanded AvP universe of novels, comics, and games
I'm trying to go with strong but not over-the-top portrayals of both the predator and space marine

Transhuman dread.

I'm a regular guy who works out
I'm 1.78m and 80kg...if a space marine approached me, I'd sh1t my pants

in AvP Prey, predators are 2.5m tall and probably weigh around 220kg
they're really, really fast, strong, and agile
some veteran predators have killed alien drones with bare hands
elite predators have been known to solo alien queens

I don't think a predator would feel any "transhuman dread"...an experienced predator would probably respect a space marine as very deadly prey capable of hunting the hunter
an inexperienced predator might underestimate the marine and pay dearly

The expierianced veteran might also make that mistake.When a predator recognises a valiant and worthy foe,he steps down and offers a token,like a spear or pistol(AVP,Peredator 2),and leave.However the noble marine would probably just kill him anyway,only to be vapourised by the enraged crew of the Predator Cruiser.

Deadshot wrote:The expierianced veteran might also make that mistake.When a predator recognises a valiant and worthy foe,he steps down and offers a token,like a spear or pistol(AVP,Peredator 2),and leave.However the noble marine would probably just kill him anyway,only to be vapourised by the enraged crew of the Predator Cruiser.

I was thinking more along the lines of arrogance in one's own abilities
in Prey, a young student predator attacks a horde of aliens, he kills a bunch of them, but he's overconfident and allows the aliens to outflank and surround him...he ends up being dog-piled (Neo vs. Agent Smith style, except the predator doesn't escape)

I was into aliens and predators a while back. I read 4 or 5 novels and, I believe, every published comic book to date. I am going to have to put my money on the marine.

Reasons:
In the novels, comics and other sources there are quite a number of predator kills – by normal humans, aliens, and even a bear killed got one. In the predator comics Duke's (arnold’s character) brother, a city cop, ranks up a lot of predator kills in the three comic series he takes part in. He goes toe to toe with them to, knife verse wristblades, and wins.

A female human was able to content with a pack of predators earning the right to hunt with them by meeting their expectations for hunters with no special consideration given to the fact that see was a 120 pound women. She even fights one in unarmed combat and would have won despite cheating that caused her to lose. She also kills a bunch of predators when see turns against them.

Aliens vs Predators: The Duel is a comic series were a bunch of normal human marines fight against a bunch of predators. The kill rates were only slightly in the predators’ favor 1.3 human kills to every 1 predator killed IIRC.

In the crossovers the predators are represented by their publishers, so it not like DC comics had a free license to mess with them however they feel. Also superman was depowered in the superman verse predator comic. He possessed only a tiny fraction of his strength and was sickened by a poisoning effect – a normal gun would have killed him in that situation. Batman and superman were trying to stop the predator using non-lethal means, which is a major handicap. In the three batman verse predator series, batman is able to punch and kick the predators knocking them around. While taking hits from the predators in hand to hand. The same blows against a space marine would not likely have the same effect, were a space marine's punch would be able to crush batman into pulp with a single connection.

Probably the least desirable bit of predator fluff produced; eating their hearts grants humans a 100 or so years of not aging. These people were basically predator hunters, killing one every 100 years to remain immortal. In two separate comic series there were people that would kill predators and eat their hearts to extend their lives for hundreds of years. These were often humans that fought predators in close combat and won. One had a specialized group of bio-engineered teams of predator hunters who killed predators by the dozens.

Predator’s shoulder cannon plasma did not kill or even seriously wound an African tribal warrior because a lion skin absorbed the damage – the warrior was in a loin cloth with the skin carried so that it hung over his back where he was hit. The warrior then killed the predator in hand to hand combat. Also cannon shots hit trees in the first Predator movie with little damage inflicted to them. I don’t think shoulder cannons are getting through power armor, tau also use plasma shots as the basis for their pulse rifles; just because its plasma doesn’t mean it is AP2.

Conclusion:
As normal skilled or lucky humans would be able to kill predators; A space marine would be able to beat them fairly easily. When predators get into close combat with a human they overly rely on their strength and durability – both areas they are solidly beat by the marine. Honor would also be a major factor as basically all predators, killers included, would not just snipe the marine from a distance. They might start a close range firefight so the marine could fight back with his pistol. A marine’s bolt round will blow the guts out a predator whereas power armor would likely protect against any of the predator’s weapons.

How the marine would easily kill the predator with a basic understanding on their culture:

Marine throws down bolt pistol and calls the predator out. Predator is honor bound to face the marine in hand-to-hand combat. Predator hops out the trees and attacks marines. Marine chops down with chain sword which the predator blocks with pole arm. Bones in the predator’s arm shatters (humans have punched and kicked predators to the ground, even stunned them with blows – predators are stronger than humans, but that doesn’t put them anywhere near marine levels), space marine then cuts predator in half.

b1soul wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that it would be a close run thing, and I actually think that they would go toe-to-toe in close combat (even though I've never seen a Predator go against anything well-armoured).
When it comes to range though, the Space marine should come out on top. The predator does have the more powerful weapon, but the greater accuracy on the marine's side and
So it's a slight lean to the Space Marine for me.

I think that from long-range, the predator's shoulder cannons would trump the bolt pistol
the shoulder cannons' disadvantage is that the projectiles travel relatively slowly (around the speed of a rocket propelled grenade), but I think the predator would have a decent chance of surprising the marine and getting off the first shot
an intelligent predator could also aim for the marine's feet, as the explosion generated by the plasma bolt would possibly be enough to knock down or at least daze the marine

if the marine were a tactical marine, then the ranged advantage could go to the marine
I say "could" because the stealthier predator would probably/maybe get off the first shot...I'm aware that marines are not incapable of stealth, but it's just harder to be stealthy in 500 pounds of power armour

the tactical marine would have a distinct disadvantage in close combat...if he were equipped with a chainsword in addition to a standard bolter, then he'd have to switch weapons
in some situations this could be bad for the marine

the fact that even a single bolt shell would probably instantly cripple/kill the predator puts it in the Astartes favour.

since I've stated that the predator in this fight would be wearing skimpy body armour, it's safe to assume that an accurate bolt round would most likely hit the predator's flesh
what creatures/beings in 40k are able to tank a single bolt round? would an Ork the size of a predator (2.5m tall based on the AvP Prey novel) be able to tank a bolt round to the body?

Gamewise the boy has a 50/50 chance, and humans have a 1/3 chance, of not dying. But fluffwise both are torn to chunks. A predator would be very dead.

I'd address the rest of your argument, but Grunt actually covered it quite well.

So if the Predator beats Space Marine, and the Governator beats Predator, the Governator beats Space Marine too?

Grunt13 wrote:I am going to have to put my money on the marine.

You've taken the time to list sources. I appreciate that. Your descriptions are pretty much accurate too.

I would like to say the following:
- I would not cite crossovers because they're at the bottom of the canon ladder. We all know that a writer would never let a predator kill off a franchise character like Batman. The predator is doomed to lose against such characters.
- Yes, predators have suffered a number of embarrassing deaths, but so have space marines. Here are a few examples that come to mind:

1) In the Soul Drinkers series, a noblewoman suffering from dwarfism jumps on the Astartes commander and stabs him through the neck, killing him.
2) In the Gaunt's Ghosts series, guardsmen (with no vast numerical advantage) kill Chaos Marines.
3) In Dark Creed, a Chaos Marine is killed by a lucky lasgun shot (sh1t happens)
4) In White Dwarf 265, a Dark Angel is killed by a rebel sniper.
5) In the Eisenhorn series, an Inquisitor kills a Chaos Marine with his sword.
6) In the Ultramarines movie, space marines are killed by single bolt rounds to the chest.
7) Moving away from canon, in the Dawn of War cinematic, space marines are easily killed by Orks.

I'm not trying to put down space marines, but if you dig through the media, space marines have their fair share of embarrassing deaths. Keep in mind that the above is only what I'm able to recall. I'm sure there's more.

Grunt13 wrote:normal skilled or lucky humans would be able to kill predators, a space marine would be able to beat them fairly easily.

I could argue that if a human sniper could surprise and kill a space marine, a predator definitely could...

Grunt13 wrote:Marine chops down with chain sword which the predator blocks with pole arm. Bones in the predator’s arm shatters

If we go by the weaker portrayals maybe...
If we go by the stronger portrayals, predators are at least physically equal to space marines if not superior. Predator physical ability varies heavily by source.
if you're interested, I could provide physical feats showing that predators are a match for space marines.

Grunt13 wrote:whereas power armor would likely protect against any of the predator’s weapons.

Ork spears punch through SM power armour (see the novel Helsreach).
Shoulder cannons also vary in power depending on source. It's safe to assume that there are different models and power settings.

Finally, I state in the OP that both the predator and space marine are veterans.
The veteran predators I'm familiar with are pretty damned good (see Prey, Civilized Beasts, South China Sea)

b1soul wrote:

Norsehawk wrote:remember that Arnold in the predator movies would be equal to a weak Catachan jungle fighter

let's not focus too much on the movies since I did mention in the OP that the predator in this fight is from the expanded AvP universe of novels, comics, and games
I'm trying to go with strong but not over-the-top portrayals of both the predator and space marine

Would it be worth noting that marines have their amazing plot armour to protect them, form what I have seen of Predators they have no such luxury.

In a face to face CC, I have a feeling that the marine would win quite convincingly, largely on account of his power armour, and the fact that he is a dedicated CC warrior. I also think his indignant hatred for the xenos abomination, and the extra reach of a chainsword should carry him through.

In a game of cat and mouse however... The predator is a dedicated stealth hunter, I don't really see how he could loose... Though if he could I imagine he probably would when you consider his weak sauce plot armour that Predators have.

SUFFER NOT THE XENOS TO LIVE.

A Pred would will because it has the self destruct.

Despite all of the fluff on the predators, my money is still on a standard space marine beating it in almost all cases like a red-headed stepchild, unless the predators have experience facing other marines in the past, as the scale of their abilities compared to a normal human is so far apart.

We are talking about a 7-8 foot tall, monster that weighs almost 500 pounds naked, who can eat through steel, heal small wounds almost instantly, larger wounds/limbs scab over quickly, the chest cavity is for the most part bulletproof against most weapons, is more agile than a gymnast, fights with the speed of a striking snake, can take punishment beyond a company of soldiers and keep on coming.

And if the marine has faced predators before, they now know what to expect.

Let's look at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine to see some of the physical advantages a Marine has.

Ossmodula

Phase 2: A small, complex, tubular organ, the ossmodula secretes hormones that both affect the ossification of the skeleton and encourages the forming bone growths to absorb ceramic-based chemicals that are laced into the Marine's diet.1 This drastically alters the way a Space Marine's bones grow and develop. Two years after this implant is first put in the subject's long bones will have increased in size and strength (along with most other bones), and the rib cage will have been fused into a solid mass of bulletproof, interlocking plates.

Biscopea

Phase 3: This small, circular organ is inserted into the chest cavity and releases hormones that vastly increase muscle growth throughout the marine's body. It also serves to form the hormonal basis for many of the later implants.

Even unarmed/unarmored the marine can kill most beings with ease, in the game rules, even without a weapon, a marine can cripple/destroy most tanks by himself, against mortal creatures, each swing of a fist will tear heads from shoulders, rip arms from sockets and a slap would feel like getting hit by an aluminum baseball bat, if he wasn't trying hard.

Larraman's Organ

Phase 5: A liver-shaped organ about the size of a golf-ball, this implant is placed within the chest cavity and connected to the circulatory system. It generates and controls 'Larraman cells' which are released into the blood stream if the recipient is wounded. They attach themselves to leucocytes in the blood and are carried to the site of the wound, where upon contact with air they form a near instant patch of scar tissue, sealing any wounds the Space Marine may suffer.

Marines are well known for their ability to heal, in the stories marines are suffering from small arms fire and having the wounds seal up in the course of a small firefight.

Think you can wait until the marine has to take a nap to get the jump on him?

Catalepsean Node

Phase 6: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting1. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all.

Think again.

Think the Predator's Camoflage would keep him safe from the marine?

Occulobe

Phase 10: This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in daylight.

Lyman's Ear

Phase 11: Not only does this implant make a Space Marine immune from dizziness or motion sickness but also allows Space Marines to consciously filter out and enhance certain sounds. The Lyman's Ear completely replaces a Marine's original ear. It is externally indistinguishable from a normal human ear.

Neuroglottis

Phase 15: This enhances a Space Marine's sense of taste to such a high degree that he can identify many common chemicals by taste alone. A Marine can even track down his target by taste.

Other Fluff also gives the Neuroglottis the ability for a space marine to track by smell like a bloodhound

One thing that a lot of pro-predator people are doing is saying yes, a standard predator would die like a dog, but a super predator, a high level one would beat face, sure, we are going against a stock standard marine here, the epitome of human power, a being who is functionally immortal (horus heresy fluff), guys that are trained in immense ways to endure the worst pain as part of their conditioning, the bolter, their main gun would probably cripple an unmodified human who tried to fire one due to the recoil, and they are armored like walking tanks.
Their combat doctrine is to cut the head off of the snake, in other words, they will drop from orbit directly into the heart of the enemy strong hold, in small numbers fight their way to the most heavily guarded area, and destroy the leader/power center of the target. And after the battle, they will punish themselves for any wasted ammunition (i.e. a bolt shell that missed its target).


Finally, back in White Dwarf 300 (I believe) they listed an army list for 'Movie Marines' i.e. how the marines stats would be, if they performed to their fluff in game, of course that wouldn't sell a lot of models but here is the BOLS update to 5th edition of those rules: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-playtest-movie-marines-in-5e.html

The only real method of cross comparison between predators and space marines that we can really use in detail is how they fare against normal human combatants. Mainly because that is a standard used in both universes. It’s the Rosetta Stone of cross universal smackdowns.

In typical predator story format, the predator hunts downs and kills about a dozen humans until he runs into one that manages to kill him. Whereas, space marines are in the middle of a battlefield fighting against opponents that outnumber them a hundred to one. Marines have died to lucky shots, warp cursed poisons, and when fighting a triumph up character. But, in the predator universe there are humans with multiple predator kills who fought them in a one to one situations with knives and makeshift weapons. Duke’s brother personally killed about a dozen, even his Russian girlfriend bagged a few. Machiko Noguchi the female human I mentioned early, killed dozens of predators in direct combat. For comparison, I don’t think there is a guardsman in the 40K universe who has personally beaten half a dozen space marines to death with his lasgun.

Sources:
Machiko Noguchi – she was a character in multiple comics and books
Detective Schaefer – cop I mentioned, seen in three comic series
Alien verse Predators: the duel
Alien verse Predators: Deadliest of Species
Alien verse Predators: Three World War

These sources depict predators fighting wars with human marines and suffering many casualties in combat. Alien verse Predators: the duel showed human marines fighting the predators going against an assortment of their technology and defeating them. Three World War shows humans killing predators on somewhat equal footing (book was published in 2010). Detective Schaefer kills predators with his knife and IIRC his bare hands. I believe he breaks a predator’s neck in unarmed combat. In deadliest of species an old female predator (females are the physical stronger and larger of the sexes for predators) teams up with human characters and fights against other evil humans. This female predator is presented as the most capable of the predators (see book title) and in the 12 issue series she is depicted as training with and fighting against humans. Humans are able to land blows against her and knock her to the ground. While training, three humans attacking together were able to best the predator in hand-to-hand combat. This predator was presented as the most capable of its kind by the series and the human main character was able to compete with her in combat.

The predators operate like serial killers, stalking and killing their victims one by one. Space marines are in the thick of it cutting down enemies by the score. In almost all cases the predator is killed by a single human combatant, whereas space marines die in the battle fighting many opponents. A predator hunting humans will kill a dozen one on one over the course of a couple of days; a space marine kills a dozen humans armed with futuristic weaponry and armour in open battle fighting them all at once in the space of a minute. A space marine might die due to a single well-placed or lucky shot, but the same could be said about an elephant and basically anything from living creatures to Death Stars.

For Predator stats; considering I could give fractional amounts, I would give predators a strength of 3.3 and a toughness of 3.3.
Reasoning:
A normal ork is said to be able to tear off a humans arm – they are strength 3. An ork can get decapitated and have its head kicked around for half and hour as the ball in soccer game. Have that head attached to a different ork body and make a full recovery. That represents a toughness of 4. The problem here is that there is a vast difference between having a characteristic of 3 and having one of 4. Given the gulf of difference that exists between a normal human and a space marine is measured in only one unit of difference in strength, toughness, WS, BS, and Initiative. Based on what I know about predators I feel that they fall far closer to human levels than space marines. Being larger and stronger than a human doesn’t automatically merit a strength and toughness of 4 or more. The kroot are basically the 40K version of predators; a kroot verse predator death match would be far more closely fought battle in my opinion.

b1soul wrote:
I could argue that if a human sniper could surprise and kill a space marine, a predator definitely could...

Of course, the sniper has a far longer range of engagement than the Predator's plasma caster, and it being 40k, probably has the deadlier weapon.

If we go by the weaker portrayals maybe...
If we go by the stronger portrayals, predators are at least physically equal to space marines if not superior. Predator physical ability varies heavily by source.
if you're interested, I could provide physical feats showing that predators are a match for space marines.

I would like to see that, because it sounds far-fetched.


Anyway, it seems like we have to dismiss the highest level of Predator cannon (movies), as well as the lowest (crossovers), yet we must include Dawn of War cinematics? If that's the case, your argument borders on disingenuous.

Grunt13 wrote:The only real method of cross comparison between predators and space marines that we can really use in detail is how they fare against normal human combatants. Mainly because that is a standard used in both universes. It’s the Rosetta Stone of cross universal smackdowns.

I think you have a great point. In these 'who will win' threads, it typically devolves into which camp can be the most passionate in their advocacy. Marneus Calgar versus Master Chief versus Samus Aran versus Harry Potter is an impossible debate for that reason.

This ties it all back to a common index: the basic human.

I think your points, that there are trianed but otherwise unaugmented basic humans with multi-pred kills in Pred canon but nothing similar for human vs Space Marine is valid.

If anything, the Space Marines would be at the disadvantage in this comparison because it's fairly common to run into augmented basic humans in 40k canon.

Norsehawk wrote:We are talking about a 7-8 foot tall, monster that weighs almost 500 pounds naked

sounds like the predator
in the novel, predators are described as "two and a half metres tall" (~ 8 feet 2 inches)

who can eat through steel, heal small wounds almost instantly, larger wounds/limbs scab over quickly, the chest cavity is for the most part bulletproof against most weapons, is more agile than a gymnast, fights with the speed of a striking snake, can take punishment beyond a company of soldiers and keep on coming.

again, this sounds like the predator unless you focus on weak showings, in which case I'll just point to weak showings of SM
predators are generally watered down in the movies compared to in the EU, but even in Predator 2, the predator survives 9 point blank shotgun blasts and a severed arm with little trouble. In the novel South China Sea, the predator tanks massive damage:

Once, on a planet half a galaxy away, a venomous metal worm twice the Predator's size had shot up through the earth and pinned it through the chest armour. The Predator had chopped the head off, cut off the tail, and gone on to fight for another four hours with the rest of the worm inside of it, before withdrawing to repair the damage.

Coming from a different angle, the bullet entered its body. This third bullet lodged deep inside, coming to rest only after it had cut through several vital organs.
. . .
"The demon isn't dead yet," said Sukhon.
"The 'demon' will be dead if it doesn't get some expert medical attention. I put a bullet with an exploding tip right through its back. No exit wound."
. . .
Still, the predator's condition did not yet warrant self-destruct. It had been hurt worse and emerged victorious. Once, on a planet half a galaxy away, a venomous metal worm twice its size had shot up through the earth and pinned the Predator through the chest armour. It had chopped the head off, cut off the tail, and gone on to fight for another four hours with the rest of the creature inside of it, before withdrawing to repair the damage.
The wheeze as its breathing grew worse indicated deep-tissue damage, but nothing irreversible. Medical care on board its ship would allow it to recover.

Here are more predator physical feats:

Strength
lifting a futuristic maximum security gate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuJOj0w9vdk (start watching from 4:25)
breaking a xenomorph's back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mg5JF3u4pk (1:50)
tearing a human in half at the waist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f_M34G-G2I (0:50)
tearing off a combat android's head and spine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Iio1WDxfc (0:05)
tearing off a soldier's head and spine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU7Sb78t8ME (1:09)
toying with a bull bison:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873891-prehomew3_006_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873880-prehomew3_007_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873894-10_super.jpg

Speed
pacing a speeding car:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1791891-1_car_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1791894-2_car_super.jpg
dodging bazooka blast and gunfire:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941708-05.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941709-06.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941711-07.jpg
dodging missile barrage from an attack helicopter:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941714-21.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941715-22.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1941716-23.jpg
reflexes (and leaping)
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873855-thrill_of_the_hunt_pg27_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873856-thrill_of_the_hunt_pg28_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873857-thrill_of_the_hunt_pg29_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873858-thrill_of_the_hunt_pg30_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873859-thrill_of_the_hunt_pg31_super.jpg

The Predator came out of the spaceship again, in full armour. Gustat had a clear shot, and the ArmaLite AR-50 wasn't a joke. He would probably make a dent in the Predator's armour, maybe even several dents. Possibly kill it, although the creature's reflexes were so freakishly fast that Gustat doubted it, not without a chance at a headshot sans helmet.

With its preternatural speed, the Predator ran forward, jumped the mound of debris its attackers had used for cover, and ran out through the northeast gate, bullets stitching the ground behind it.

- South China Sea

a slap would feel like getting hit by an aluminum baseball bat, if he wasn't trying hard.

you mean like this? http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47083/1873894-10_super.jpg

Think the Predator's Camouflage would keep him safe from the marine?

it could yes
in Horus Rising, the false Emperor's "Invisibles" used a light bending technology similar to predator cloaking. The "Invisibles" surprised and killed quite a few marines before the main character, captain Lokken, adjusted his lens filter to "hard chrome". Even in that vision mode, he was only able to see a faint outline. Sure, if the marine were prepared and knowledgeable, the camouflage would be much less of an issue. If the marine were unaware of the predator's abilities, it would be a major issue since we have a concrete example of what happens when marines runs into opponents who bend light.

One thing that a lot of pro-predator people are doing is saying yes, a standard predator would die like a dog, but a super predator, a high level one would beat face

I dunno know who saying this, but a claim without a reasoned argument to back it up is worthless, regardless of whether it's for or against the predator
If a standard predator (neither a novice nor an expert, but simply predator with decent experience under his belt) faced off against a bog standard marine...I don't see this as a land slide victory either way

Grunt13 wrote:The only real method of cross comparison between predators and space marines that we can really use in detail is how they fare against normal human combatants. Mainly because that is a standard used in both universes. It’s the Rosetta Stone of cross universal smackdowns.

Well, I'm glad I've run into another AvP fan who's actually read the AvP "fluff".
I just read a novel called Predator South China Sea. In this novel, the predator, whom is described as "battle-tested" (i.e. veteran), kills (and I sh1t you not) around 150 soldiers on an island. These soldiers have an experienced commander and are armed with assault rifles, mortars, heavy machineguns, rocket propelled grenades, anti-aircraft guns, etc.
So the "predators are easily killed by lucky/skilled humans" argument is about as valid as the "space marines are easily killed by lucky/skilled humans"

As for the Machiko Noguchi business, it can only be explained a few ways
1) It's plot-induced stupidity similar to this:

In the Soul Drinkers series, a noblewoman suffering from dwarfism jumps on the Astartes commander and stabs him through the neck, killing him.

Machiko also kills xenomorphs in close combat with a blade. What Machiko, a small Asian lady, is able to do just doesn't square with what we know about xenomorphs and predators. Sh1t like this happens quite often in comics. For example, in Batman vs. Aliens, Batman is able to hold off aliens with his bare hands.
2) It's an inconsistent weak showing of the predators. AvP Prey was written by Steve Perry and his daughter, Stephani. The stuff you're referring to pops up in one of the sequels. This sequel was written by Stephani alone. I think she went overboard with the idea of a strong female protagonist.
3) The predators killed by Machiko include the "Shorty" character (an unblooded novice who is exceptionally small for his race) and a few predators who couldn't join the hunt and had to stay on the ship. In predator society, predators compete for the right to hunt, the weaker/less skilled ones have to stay behind.

Smacks wrote:Would it be worth noting that marines have their amazing plot armour to protect them, form what I have seen of Predators they have no such luxury.

Yes, plot armour works for the space marines and against the predatorsthis is because space marines usually play heroes, whereas predators usually play the villains who have to lose for sake of the plot

b1soul wrote:

In the Soul Drinkers series, a noblewoman suffering from dwarfism jumps on the Astartes commander and stabs him through the neck, killing him.

This actually did not happen as portrayed. The antagonist in this case was physically near-identical to a small child despite being middle aged. She ran towards a Space Marine and stabbed him through an armor join in his leg with virulent, xenos-concocted venom. The physical injury was negligible (indeed he barely noticed it when it occurred) but the poison itself is what did him in.

I am curious, though, b1soul, how much of the Predator 'canon' are you allowed to throw out in your portrayal of Predators? No movies, no 'weak' books, no 'weak' comics.

If you are going to chuck literally everything that has Predators doing anything less than killing a thousand things with ninja skills, then the pro-Marine camp should be able to throw out anything that isn't Marneus Calgar 1-shotting his way through every antagonist in the galaxy.

Grunt13 wrote:The only real method of cross comparison between predators and space marines that we can really use in detail is how they fare against normal human combatants. Mainly because that is a standard used in both universes. It’s the Rosetta Stone of cross universal smackdowns.

In typical predator story format, the predator hunts downs and kills about a dozen humans until he runs into one that manages to kill him. Whereas, space marines are in the middle of a battlefield fighting against opponents that outnumber them a hundred to one. Marines have died to lucky shots, warp cursed poisons, and when fighting a triumph up character. But, in the predator universe there are humans with multiple predator kills who fought them in a one to one situations with knives and makeshift weapons. Duke’s brother personally killed about a dozen, even his Russian girlfriend bagged a few. Machiko Noguchi the female human I mentioned early, killed dozens of predators in direct combat. For comparison, I don’t think there is a guardsman in the 40K universe who has personally beaten half a dozen space marines to death with his lasgun.

I agree with the principle, but I think the comparisons you are using need adjusting. I don't think you can count Duke's brother and his girlfriend as 'normal combatants' because they are heroes/story protagonists. Predators are usually antagonists so they are always going to suffer a little from Villain Decay. Marines on the other hand are nearly always heroes so the comparisons are unfair.

I think to make the comparisons fair you have to try and find examples where the good guy/bad guy variable is evened out. In Predator 2 the Predator gets to play the anti-hero for a brief time killing drug dealers. In that role he is able to take out a room full of crazy drug gang mercenary guys, who are literally armed to the teeth. Then haul a 200 pound man 20 feet up a vertical drop, and hang him from the ceiling before the police even manage to get up the stairs.

Later he manages to take out another gang. Then an entire swat team who are supposed to be ready for him. In the previous film, the Predator has already wiped out an entire US special forces squad before the film even starts. Normal humans usually can't ever ever beat a predator "Unless they are main characters". Even Dutch really should have lost at the end of Predator 1... He really only won through extreme luck, and the fact that the Predator agrees to a fist fight rather than just shooting him when he had the chance.

It's harder to find examples of Space Marines in fiction where they aren't the super duper good guys who never loose. Comparisons with chaos marines performance might actually yield less skewed results.

b1soul wrote:- the marine is a veteran assault squad sergeant (from your favourite SM chapter)

If were using vodeo games as a reference...




Go to minute 1:58. That's what would happen to the predator.

labmouse42 wrote:

b1soul wrote:- the marine is a veteran assault squad sergeant (from your favourite SM chapter)

If were using vodeo games as a reference...




Go to minute 1:58. That's what would happen to the predator.

And that's only one of the namby pamby Ultramarines, Take the level of violence to whole new levels for a Space Wolf or Blood Angel.

Also, the senses I mentioned earlier would also be for an Ultramarine, that's not even the acute senses of a Space Wolf.

Someone mentioned that a predator functioned with a bullet in his gut or with a worm body stuck in him. Space marines can still function with their primary heart ripped out of their chest or half of their face ripped off.

Omegus wrote:Of course, the sniper has a far longer range of engagement than the Predator's plasma caster, and it being 40k, probably has the deadlier weapon.

A sniper rifle doesn't necessarily have longer range than a shoulder cannon.
The shoulder cannon's disadvantage is the relatively slow speed of its plasma bolts.
However...
1) the space marine can only dodge if he sees the plasma bolt coming (predators usually position themselves to snipe from beyond the target's field of vision, i.e. from behind, from cover, preferably from both)
and
2) the shoulder cannon has the advantage of dealing splash damage

your argument borders on disingenuous.

I'm afraid you misunderstood my point.
My point was that if someone cites low showings for the predator, I'm going to cite low showings for SM.

sourclams wrote:I am curious, though, b1soul, how much of the Predator 'canon' are you allowed to throw out in your portrayal of Predators? No movies, no 'weak' books, no 'weak' comics.

I don't like to debate by throwing embarrassing losses and low showings at the other side, but if people do it, I'm going to respond in kind.
Why do you have a problem with that?
I'm not saying "let's focus on the SM's weak showings while ignoring the predator's weak showings". I am saying "let's not focus on either side's embarrassing moments".

Furthermore, I've already said...the predator in this fight is a veteran, one of the more elite predators, as is the SM.
I've never seen a "weak" portrayal of a predator veteran, and I don't think I've seen a weak portrayal of a SM veteran. Low showings should be quite irrelevant to either of them.
Keep in mind I'm not talking about SM fresh from the scout company or predators who are still students. I'm not even talking about run-of-the-mill predators and SM.
By "veterans", I mean SM and predator individuals who have the combat skills and combat intelligence to survive countless conflicts.

This actually did not happen as portrayed.

"A child-like woman managed to kill a space marine commander." That sort of claim would be pretty annoying to you, right? It's a gross over-simplification, is it not?
As a predator fan (who's also a SM fan), I've had to deal with "Arnold beat a predator", "Danny Glover beat a predator", "X,Y, and Z beat a predator". These "arguments" almost never take into account the circumstances. Now do you see where I'm coming from?

Smacks wrote:I don't think you can count Duke's brother and his girlfriend as 'normal combatants' because they are heroes/story protagonists. Predators are usually antagonists so they are always going to suffer a little from Villain Decay. Marines on the other hand are nearly always heroes so the comparisons are unfair. It's harder to find examples of Space Marines in fiction where they aren't the super duper good guys who never loose. Comparisons with chaos marines performance might actually yield less skewed results.

Good point. I've tried to avoid out-of-universe arguments, but what you've said makes a whole lot of sense.

I would say the predator has the disadvantage of honourable fighting.In Predator,the guy who dropas his gun and draws hios big @$$ Rambo knife,probably fought face to face with the predator,saying stuff like

"Fair fight,blade on blade,me vs you."

The Predator,being homnourbound to engage in single combat,would have engaged.The marine would have given him a long look,then blown him in half with a bolter round.

Didn’t Read South China Sea, so I really can’t comment on it. All I can do is point to the media I am familiar with. Predators been fighting and dying in movies, comics, books, and games, for a long time now; there is over two decades worth of material on them, most of it does not depict a creature that is anywhere close to being able to take out a space marine in my opinion. The South China Sea is just one source out of many. Other movies/books/comics especially more noteworthy and recognized ones paint a different picture. The movies depicted creatures that were tough when fighting against opponents that couldn’t really deal with them in a sensible manner. Most of the time predators are fighting people who are either completely unequipped to fight them (drug dealers with 9mm pistols, colonists, scientists) or people with no idea how to fight them (predator 1, 2, AvP1, volume 1 and 2 of AvP comics). Whenever a group of predators goes up against a group of human marines (Aliens type) that are reasonably equipped and informed, the humans are able to wrack up plenty of predator kills. A lot of the situations were predators were really butchering the humans involved some really one-sided situations where the predators had multiple factors in their favor.

Smacks wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:The only real method of cross comparison between predators and space marines that we can really use in detail is how they fare against normal human combatants. Mainly because that is a standard used in both universes. It’s the Rosetta Stone of cross universal smackdowns.

In typical predator story format, the predator hunts downs and kills about a dozen humans until he runs into one that manages to kill him. Whereas, space marines are in the middle of a battlefield fighting against opponents that outnumber them a hundred to one. Marines have died to lucky shots, warp cursed poisons, and when fighting a triumph up character. But, in the predator universe there are humans with multiple predator kills who fought them in a one to one situations with knives and makeshift weapons. Duke’s brother personally killed about a dozen, even his Russian girlfriend bagged a few. Machiko Noguchi the female human I mentioned early, killed dozens of predators in direct combat. For comparison, I don’t think there is a guardsman in the 40K universe who has personally beaten half a dozen space marines to death with his lasgun.

I agree with the principle, but I think the comparisons you are using need adjusting. I don't think you can count Duke's brother and his girlfriend as 'normal combatants' because they are heroes/story protagonists. Predators are usually antagonists so they are always going to suffer a little from Villain Decay. Marines on the other hand are nearly always heroes so the comparisons are unfair.

I think to make the comparisons fair you have to try and find examples where the good guy/bad guy variable is evened out. In Predator 2 the Predator gets to play the anti-hero for a brief time killing drug dealers. In that role he is able to take out a room full of crazy drug gang mercenary guys, who are literally armed to the teeth. Then haul a 200 pound man 20 feet up a vertical drop, and hang him from the ceiling before the police even manage to get up the stairs.

Later he manages to take out another gang. Then an entire swat team who are supposed to be ready for him. In the previous film, the Predator has already wiped out an entire US special forces squad before the film even starts. Normal humans usually can't ever ever beat a predator "Unless they are main characters". Even Dutch really should have lost at the end of Predator 1... He really only won through extreme luck, and the fact that the Predator agrees to a fist fight rather than just shooting him when he had the chance.

It's harder to find examples of Space Marines in fiction where they aren't the super duper good guys who never loose. Comparisons with chaos marines performance might actually yield less skewed results.

Basically everyone in a movie, book, comic, etc; can claim a certain level of protection granted because of literary reasons (predators, humans, and space marines alike). But, just going from the movies the predator did so well in the first two movies because those it was preying on had no idea who they were fighting and those that did were trying to take the creature alive. The predator was protected from 99% of all gunfire in the first two movies because everyone was firing at ground level and the creature was sitting up in the tree or ceiling just picking them off. In the movie Predators a small group of humans thrown together were able to take out 3 predators; one was even killed in hand-to-hand combat by a guy with a sword.

The two sources I mentioned above:
Alien verse Predators: Three World War
Alien verse Predators: the duel
Deal with a multiple predators fighting multiple human marines who are reasonable informed about what they are fighting. Having multiple individuals removes a lot of the literary protection you are referencing to. Three World War is basically a large scale battle with hundreds, maybe thousands, of individuals involved. Normal, nameless, human grunts were able to kill the predators just fine. Also the history with predators goes back through out human history. Vikings, samurai, pirates, medieval knights, tribal warriors, and etc have fought and, a good amount of times, bested predators. The level of difference between a space marine and a normal human being is such that a creature can be significantly stronger and tougher than a human being while still being significantly weaker than a space marine.

Deadshot wrote:I would say the predator has the disadvantage of honourable fighting.In Predator,the guy who dropas his gun and draws hios big @$$ Rambo knife,probably fought face to face with the predator,saying stuff like

"Fair fight,blade on blade,me vs you."

The Predator,being homnourbound to engage in single combat,would have engaged.The marine would have given him a long look,then blown him in half with a bolter round.

This actually happened in superman verse predator. But the guy was using a relatively low caliber pistol - predator was wounded and pissed off.

Never read it,I have just played AVP Extinction,an extinct PS2 game,and the PS3 AVP,plus the films.

I don't know much about Predators I guess since all of what I have seen were weak portrayals according to the thread, so I would like somebody more versed in it to show me examples of the shoulder caster's strength.

Grunt13 wrote:Didn’t read South China Sea, so I really can’t comment on it.

I've taken the time to quote from the novel. Why don't you read those quotes and descriptions? You can comment on those, right?
Please don't ignore sources cited by other posters just because you haven't read them yourself. I'm providing quotes for a reason. I would hate to think that my effort is being wasted.

Grunt13 wrote:All I can do is point to the media I am familiar with.

I understand that you're going with what you're familiar with, but let me ask you this: Is the material you're citing actually relevant?
Do those examples involve veteran predators, or do they involve average predators and/or below-average predators (i.e. students)?
It matters because this thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran marine (see the OP).
South China Sea specifically features a "battle-tested" veteran predator, not an average Joe predator.

Why would you emphasize that Machiko kills "Shorty", a novice midget of his race? It's just not relevant. The Machiko character is a ridiculous concept. She also kills xenomorphs in close combat with a blade. If anything, you should be focusing on the veteran "Broken Tusked" predator in Prey. You remember "Broken Tusk", right? I could talk about how unimpressive the marines are in the Ultramarines movie, but that would be irrelevant because those marines are fresh from the Scout Company.

Grunt13 wrote:Also superman was depowered in the superman verse predator comic.

In Superman vs. Predator, a weakened Superman still lifts a Humvee over his head, kicks a stone pillar across the ground, tanks a rocket propelled grenade, punches through stone masonry (making the stone wall and ceiling collapse), and bullets still bounce off him, etc.

Anyway, I wouldn't place too much stock in crossovers. Do you think that if Batman and a Chaos Marine fight in a crossover, the writer would let Batman die like he should? Think about it.

Grunt13 wrote:Basically everyone in a movie, book, comic, etc; can claim a certain level of protection granted because of literary reasons (predators, humans, and space marines alike).

Umm no, he made a very valid point and you're totally ignoring it. Villains almost never enjoy as much plot protection as heroes do. Heroes generally enjoy a lot more plot protection than villains do. I don't know how you could ignore this. Why do you think that one Ultramarine captain is able to kill dozens of Chaos Marines in the new Space Marine game? Hint: It's because he's the protagonist and the Chaos Marines are antagonists doomed to be slaughtered.

Grunt13 wrote:one was even killed in hand-to-hand combat by a guy with a sword.

If that's how you want to play...in the Dawn of War cinematic, space marines are easily cut down with one swing of an Ork axe.

I feel like you have a lot more potential in Eldar Vs Predator Matchups.

For instance 1 on 1 stealth hunt:

Alaitoc Pathfinder vs Veteran Predator Hunter on a jungle world

Or if we feel like comparing up close-
Squad of Veteran Vanguard Predators vs a Harlequin Troop.

SMs can be pretty stealthy, see those Raven Guards in the Ultramarine books.
Shrike will probably wipe the floor with Predators.