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Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, I mean, I'm an SM fan, but I will definitely give the fight to the Pred if it stays at range and makes use of its stealth, its cammo and the plasma-caster mounted on its shoulder.

It's just that I don't see a Pred being able to take an SM in melee, where it throws away all of the advantages it has over the Marine.

Unless pred does back stab of course.

I remember a comic where a Predator "skillfully" butchers almost every member of an african tribe, his gun exploded when the only survivor hit it with a javelin. that seems like a pretty important design flaw.

another one got his butt kick by Judge Dredd. sure, they're good, but not that good.

Cheesecat wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, I mean, I'm an SM fan, but I will definitely give the fight to the Pred if it stays at range and makes use of its stealth, its cammo and the plasma-caster mounted on its shoulder.

It's just that I don't see a Pred being able to take an SM in melee, where it throws away all of the advantages it has over the Marine.

Unless pred does back stab of course.

It would be bad ass i the predator could use a 'mask' so he looked like the Space Marine. Or maybe a watch that auto-res'd him.

Favorite chapter? Space wolves. So, boltgun, boltpistol, grenades, chainsword, extra-sensory abilities besides the helmet, vs. the predator and all his gadgets. I think the Wolf would win. The can smell him, hear him, even if they can't see him. Heightened reflexes from the canis helix would also come into play. So Wolves would win.

Vierhof wrote:Heightened reflexes from the canis helix would also come into play. So Wolves would win.

I hear a lot of praise for the canis helix, but I don't think SW are any better at close combat than other close combat oriented chapters

and I'm not even saying this to argue that "a predator would beat a SW", I just think SW are over-hyped and I've never been a SW fan

Connor McKane wrote:So those that like Predator say Predator will win. Those that like Space Marine says Space Mairne will win.

What is the point?

I hate Space Marines, I still think one would beat a Predator however.

b1soul wrote:

Vierhof wrote:Heightened reflexes from the canis helix would also come into play. So Wolves would win.

I hear a lot of praise for the canis helix, but I don't think SW are any better at close combat than other close combat oriented chapters

and I'm not even saying this to argue that "a predator would beat a SW", I just think SW are over-hyped and I've never been a SW fan

Regardless of what you 'feel' about SW reception by the community, there are numerous examples in the fiction of the canis helix providing them with far greater sense of smell/hearing than other Marines, including detection of invisible opponents (Jokaero assassin devices, Tyranid Lictors).

And even if you don't feel that the average SW can out-fight the average super-fighty Marine (World Eaters, BA, Templars), the consensus is still that an average marine would beat a Predator in combat so an exceptionally fighty marine with extrasensory capability should be even more of a lock.

sourclams wrote:there are numerous examples in the fiction of the canis helix providing them with far greater sense of smell/hearing

excuse me, but when did I doubt the Space Wolves' senses? you're attacking a straw man
you need to re-read my post

the consensus is still that an average marine would beat a Predator in combat

bandwagons mean nothing to me
I never claimed that a predator would have an advantage over or even be equal to a power armoured SM in close combat
a predator with a plasma blade would give the SM a run for his money

b1soul wrote:

sourclams wrote:there are numerous examples in the fiction of the canis helix providing them with far greater sense of smell/hearing

excuse me, but when did I doubt the Space Wolves' senses? you're attacking a straw man
you need to re-read my post

Re-read your own post. You discount entirely the advantage of the canis helix in this particular scenario, unless you are actually agreeing that the SMs of the more fighty chapters would typically beat a Predator.

the consensus is still that an average marine would beat a Predator in combat

bandwagons mean nothing to me
I never claimed that a predator would have an advantage over or even be equal to a power armoured SM in close combat
a predator with a plasma blade would give the SM a run for his money

sourclams wrote:Re-read your own post. You discount entirely the advantage of the canis helix in this particular scenario

I'm sorry but you can't read

b1soul wrote:I hear a lot of praise for the canis helix, but I don't think SW are any better at close combat than other close combat oriented chapters
and I'm not even saying this to argue that "a predator would beat a SW", I just think SW are over-hyped and I've never been a SW fan

again, where did I discount the Space Wolves' senses? you have no answer because I DIDN'T
please stop putting words in my mouth

Frankly I find you bordering on Fanboi-dom.

frankly, your "fanboi" accusation is just a worthless ad hominem attack
would you care to point out where I've claimed that a predator would dominate in close combat? I would be glad to refute you

a Predator with a plasma blade would have to be fighting an SM with a storm shield/rosarius/iron halo

predator with plasma blade would fight a marine with power weapon...

b1soul: I also feel as Sourclams does, that this thread is a soapbox for how great you feel that Predators are, and that is fine, but please do not mask it by asking for opinions on who you think would win, selectively discounting the majority of the "Predator" based media most of those here have been exposed to... you are asking for a headache.

Since there is no precident on how great Predators are, or how bad SMs are when compared to one another, it is almost impossible to create ANY argument based on statistical or physical evidence.

These are the only truths we can claim:

Predators are not invincible and have been bested by run of the mill or just plain lucky, average to less than average Humans.

Space Marines are not invincible and have been bested by run of the mill or just plain lucky, average to less than average Humans.

Since no one is able to give any hard evidence of a statistical match up, because it doesn't exist... it is gonna be a "My dad can beat up your dad," kind of discussion.

So I would say, put up a poll, and let the opinions speak for themselves.

I'm absolutely fine with having my opinion challenged. Without contrary opinions, this thread would be extremely boring for me.
I enjoy the back and forth exchanges of opinions. They've made this thread fun for me. Thus I'm not "pretending" to want the opinions of others. I definitely want to read what other people have to say, I just won't necessarily agree with them.

Someone claimed that the predator would stomp because of his invisibility.
I pointed out the SM's helmet would have detection capabilities.
Another person mentioned that a full suit of power armour would offer much more protection than the predator's typically sparse body armour.
I agreed.
To me, a vs. thread is about exchanging opinions and trying to articulate those opinions in a way that approaches reasonable debate.
of course, I'll defend my position if I disagree with another poster. If that makes me a "fanboi", then whatever.

As for "selectively discounting media"...well, if someone points out low showings of predators, I'll point out low showings of SM.
If someone cites Batman vs. Predator, I'll cite Superman vs. Predator.
I'll also explain why those crossovers (and others like Tarzan vs. Predator, Judge Dredd vs. Predator, Terminator vs. Aliens vs. Predator, etc.) don't take place in the AvP universe.
For instance, Tarzan vs. Predator doesn't take place in the AvP universe because
1) Tarzan doesn't exist in the same universe as Weyland Yutani and the Chigusa Corporation and
2) the earth isn't hollow in the AvP universe and Tarzan vs. Predator takes place in the earth's hollow core populated by dinosaurs.
The same could be said for Batman and Gotham, Judge Dredd and Mega-City One, etc. Those characters and those places don't exist in the AvP universe, and those stories never take place in the AvP universe.

Sourclaims jumped all over me for claims I had never made. My position was that the Space Wolves are no better at close combat than any other close combat oriented chapter. I never denied the Space Wolves' sensory gifts.

Finally, I'm not posting a poll because the time for that has passed. A timely poll is more meaningful than a severely delayed poll.
Also, some people cast votes without explaining why. If the number of "votes" is of interest to you, you can always go back and count the number of posters who have argued for the SM and the number of posters who have argued for the predator.

Here I go, I will add a few pennies to this conversation. I think it would be a pretty fair fight overall, going fluff to fluff for both. Some things that I need to add here however in the Space Marine's favor:

Combat blades and the teeth of Chainswords have monomolecular blades, and they get armor saves vs these weapons.
Space marines senses are jacked up to the extreme, even the non Space Wolves (they have much better senses of smell however, which is often why they go without helmets)

The 19 implants that all space marines receive when becoming space marines make them extremely lethal, even without their armor, see: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine which contains the information from a very old White Dwarf article. For example, the Ossmodula enhances the Marine's bones with ceramic (added in through diet) to make the bones extremely tough, and fuses the rib cage into a bulletproof mass of bone. Any bleeding wounds would scar over almost instantly due to the Larramann's organ.

Due to the Occulobe, any shimmering from the Predator's stealth field would be spotted very easily, even at night (since marines see in the dark as well as daylight) Add to this Lyman's ear that would let the marine probably hear the predator's breath or even heartbeat and use that information to get a good idea of where he is at all times.

And to quote the end of the article about the training of a space marine:

Indoctrination - Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described above. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree.

After all of these implantations and alterations to the human body, there is a serious debate whether or not Space Marines are human. While they indubitably serve humanity, they are at least two meters tall, can breathe poison and eat through metal.

Weapon wise, I would say that the predator would only have an advantage at range, but with the marine's reflexes, at long range, he could probably dodge any plasma shots coming at him, at short range that would be more difficult, but he would hear the weapon charging up, and be able to lay down suppressive fire with his bolt pistol, if he has a bolter, game over man, game over.

Close range, a fluff marine would probably rip a predator apart easily, considering that they move as if they had no armor on, and can shrug off shells from battle tanks without missing a step.

Norsehawk wrote:he would hear the weapon charging up

in some of the media (notably the movie Predators and the recent video game, both released last year), the shoulder cannon does charge up for more powerful shots
in other media, the shoulder cannon does not charge up, or at least there’s no sound

can shrug off shells from battle tanks without missing a step.

I have not heard of this
What I have heard is that power armour is very durable but a regular lasgun is able to penetrate weak spots

b1soul wrote:

Norsehawk wrote:he would hear the weapon charging up

in some of the media (notably the movie Predators and the recent video game, both released last year), the shoulder cannon does charge up for more powerful shots
in other media, the shoulder cannon does not charge up, or at least there’s no sound

can shrug off shells from battle tanks without missing a step.

I have not heard of this
What I have heard is that power armour is very durable but a regular lasgun is able to penetrate weak spots

From Lexicanium:

Autocannon are similar in concept to twentieth century tank guns. They are rapid firing and use mass-reactive explosive ammunition. They are usually either mounted on weapon carriages or vehicles because of their great weight.

Getting hit by an equivalent shot from a modern day tank gun, and having a better than 66% chance of walking away from it unscathed means that the armor is pretty dang tough. Yes, extremely lucky shots with lasguns can kill marines, but that is more of a game balance thing, in the fluff, a single lasgun shot is like a bee sting to them, and it takes many to drop a space marine.

Norsehawk wrote:

Autocannon are similar in concept to twentieth century tank guns. They are rapid firing and use mass-reactive explosive ammunition. They are usually either mounted on weapon carriages or vehicles because of their great weight.

Getting hit by an equivalent shot from a modern day tank gun, and having a better than 66% chance of walking away from it unscathed means that the armor is pretty dang tough. Yes, extremely lucky shots with lasguns can kill marines, but that is more of a game balance thing, in the fluff, a single lasgun shot is like a bee sting to them, and it takes many to drop a space marine.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but "similar in concept," then going on to describe how they function, does not mean that the shells of each are equivalent, but that their manner of operation is equivalent.

I had images of a Space Marine being stalked by a Predator Battle Tank until i read the OP.
Gutted.

The Marine. He would just use his jump pack to get to the pred, and his chainsword would sing.

AvP lets keep in mine one alien killed 2 predators back to back. Considering an alien would be on par with a genestealer (not a Hormagaunt) sorry but aliens are a lot stronger the colonial marines or imperial guardsmen. I would say some of the predator expected stats so far are a bit exagerated. T5? I doubt it, and I'd put their armor save on par with an Orks 6+.

Plus you gotta figure a Space Marine is like if Arnold sexed up himself, had a kid and then started pumping in elephant steroids right after conception. But then you remove his brain and give him a functional one so he's smart too. And if an Arnold could kill a predator that Space Marine would be able to kill one.

That was a film.It was supposed to be like that.From the first moments of the film thatwas going to happen.

PS,that alien was a Praetorian,an Alien Queen in waiting.If a queen is killed,a signal within all the Praetorians is activated allowing a single one to morph into ther Queen.Because there is a new Queen,the signal then stops.

If you have played the AVP game,the newest one,play the campaign to find one.

Yeah number 6. My son plays it constantly. I actually need to buy him a new copy as he wore his current one out, it just gives a disk read error.

Neither, they realise they have to return to their own fictional universe.

Hargus56 wrote:Yeah number 6. My son plays it constantly. I actually need to buy him a new copy as he wore his current one out, it just gives a disk read error.

Ther is also one in the campaign.

Hum this is a tough one. Is the space marine the main character or one of the support characters? Because I see it working this way, if he's a support character he's dead the Yajunta is gonna nail him. But if he is the main character well then he will get smacked around a little bit but somehow manage to outsmart the predator and kill it.

Sorry but that's the way every predator novel, comic and movie has worked out. Now there are a FEW exceptions such as in AVP - WAR where a number of them escape to fight again with the girl character. And then in the movies there are a few exceptions too, but this isn't about movies.

The video games are different cats, I assume in Concrete Jungle the creature lives since you play from it's perspective but I never got far into that game to know for sure.

I think the Predator's ranged weaponary as as powerful as the Taus and their melee skill as as good as a Space Marine Captian. But then again someone said that the genesteelers are similiar to the giger alien so if one Pred can take out a host of them by himself well then there is more to consider.

But since both a different types of fighters in a stand up fight I go with the marine but in a stealth and ranged cat and mouse style fight my money is on the predator.

b1soul wrote:I'm absolutely fine with having my opinion challenged. Without contrary opinions, this thread would be extremely boring for me.
I enjoy the back and forth exchanges of opinions. They've made this thread fun for me. Thus I'm not "pretending" to want the opinions of others. I definitely want to read what other people have to say, I just won't necessarily agree with them.

Someone claimed that the predator would stomp because of his invisibility.
I pointed out the SM's helmet would have detection capabilities.
Another person mentioned that a full suit of power armour would offer much more protection than the predator's typically sparse body armour.
I agreed.
To me, a vs. thread is about exchanging opinions and trying to articulate those opinions in a way that approaches reasonable debate.
of course, I'll defend my position if I disagree with another poster. If that makes me a "fanboi", then whatever.

For what it's worth I haven't noticed any indication of fanboyism on your part. You started this thread to have a discussion, and that's what we're doing. The one or two posters that are claiming you're a fanboy have either:

a) A raging meltagun in their pants for Space Marines.
b) Hate having their opinions/views challenged at all, and sound very unpleasant to talk to in real life.
or special option
c) Misread your posts as fanboyism.

That said, I would be interested to see what your opinion is now after all this discussion.

Hargus56 wrote:lets keep in mine one alien killed 2 predators back to back.

you do realize those were teenage predators right (the equivalent of SM neophytes)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHV4JCwJoXk (4:28)
you're also ignoring the second AvP film, in which a lone predator killed over a dozen aliens...if we go by that, an experienced predator can kill over 12 genestealers...

dalsiandon wrote:Hum this is a tough one. Is the space marine the main character or one of the support characters? Because I see it working this way, if he's a support character he's dead the Yajunta is gonna nail him. But if he is the main character well then he will get smacked around a little bit but somehow manage to outsmart the predator and kill it.

I'm thinking two veterans, not necessarily named characters (yeah, AvP has a few named predators)

But since both a different types of fighters in a stand up fight I go with the marine but in a stealth and ranged cat and mouse style fight my money is on the predator.

fair enough, quite a few people are of a similar opinion

Emperors Faithful wrote:For what it's worth I haven't noticed any indication of fanboyism on your part. You started this thread to have a discussion, and that's what we're doing. The one or two posters that are claiming you're a fanboy have either:
a) A raging meltagun in their pants for Space Marines.
b) Hate having their opinions/views challenged at all, and sound very unpleasant to talk to in real life.
or special option
c) Misread your posts as fanboyism.
That said, I would be interested to see what your opinion is now after all this discussion.

sorry for the late reply but thanks man
as for my opinion now...

the predator definitely has a stealth and maneuverability advantage in my book (and I'm not just talking about the invisibility)

I also think the predator would be more agile and lighter on his feet
I'm aware that marines are quite agile even in power armour, but I think predators are simply more acrobatic (in the comics, they move like ninja gaiden)

in close combat, I think some people have underrated the predator...even young predator students (similar to space marine neophytes) are able to kill small hordes of xenomorphs in melee (at least in the original novel)
the marine may have the edge because power armour offers complete body protection, but power armour has weak spots (neck and joints) and quite frankly, if Ork spears can penetrate power armour (see Helsreach), a predator blade can

I think this is a good fight...I favour the predator
ranged combat (which involves a lot of stealth and positioning): 6/10 advantage predator
close combat: 5.5/10 advantage marine
...so predator with the slight advantage, (10.5) predator - (9.5) marine

I agree that it would be a close run thing, and I actually think that they would go toe-to-toe in close combat (even though I've never seen a Predator go against anything well-armoured).
When it comes to range though, the Space marine should come out on top. The predator does have the more powerful weapon, but the greater accuracy on the marine's side and the fact that even a single bolt shell would probably instantly cripple/kill the predator puts it in the Astartes favour.

So it's a slight lean to the Space Marine for me.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that it would be a close run thing, and I actually think that they would go toe-to-toe in close combat (even though I've never seen a Predator go against anything well-armoured).
When it comes to range though, the Space marine should come out on top. The predator does have the more powerful weapon, but the greater accuracy on the marine's side and
So it's a slight lean to the Space Marine for me.

I think that from long-range, the predator's shoulder cannons would trump the bolt pistol
the shoulder cannons' disadvantage is that the projectiles travel relatively slowly (around the speed of a rocket propelled grenade), but I think the predator would have a decent chance of surprising the marine and getting off the first shot
an intelligent predator could also aim for the marine's feet, as the explosion generated by the plasma bolt would possibly be enough to knock down or at least daze the marine

if the marine were a tactical marine, then the ranged advantage could go to the marine
I say "could" because the stealthier predator would probably/maybe get off the first shot...I'm aware that marines are not incapable of stealth, but it's just harder to be stealthy in 500 pounds of power armour

the tactical marine would have a distinct disadvantage in close combat...if he were equipped with a chainsword in addition to a standard bolter, then he'd have to switch weapons
in some situations this could be bad for the marine

the fact that even a single bolt shell would probably instantly cripple/kill the predator puts it in the Astartes favour.

since I've stated that the predator in this fight would be wearing skimpy body armour, it's safe to assume that an accurate bolt round would most likely hit the predator's flesh
what creatures/beings in 40k are able to tank a single bolt round? would an Ork the size of a predator (2.5m tall based on the AvP Prey novel) be able to tank a bolt round to the body?

The Predator's gun is computer controlled,and he can fire it while ustalizign both of his hands.He can take over for timportent sniopes,but the gun naturally targets the closest hostile declared target in view.

At range,the Predator wins.The zoom in the helm,coupled with the penetrating power of the spear,will be able to put a good shot at the neck or knee.If the SM isn't dead from the neck then he will be cripopled by a knee,and has a big spear sticking out of his leg.

Through a chain edged disc,effectivly a Chainsword CD,and that puts a big advantage.The Perdator can just let his mask take the shots.He doesn't even need to see the targets.The Marine has to wheel to point his pistol.



Quite frankly,if an Ork can put a crude iron blade through a Termy,then a predator can put a dense,shrp blade through PA.

And just to answer b1soul,yes,as bolts have a 50:50 to hurt an ork.The common pump action shotgun is equivilent to the IG shotgun,and a Predator tanked 9 point blank shots and got back up.

Deadshot wrote:Quite frankly,if an Ork can put a crude iron blade through a Termy,then a predator can put a dense,shrp blade through PA.

You sure it was terminator? I remember a marine was impaled through the back while wearing regular power armour. I think the marine would have to watch out for the smartdisc too.

The Predator disc has a razor sharp edge, unerring mental guidance systems, and the ability to continue flight after its initial impact.
When upgraded, the Disc Master gains a set of nine nanovibronic discs. These discs possess a high-speed molecular chainsaw around their circumference that can tear through even hardened composite armors. Furthermore, each Disc Master is trained in the art of Ka'Ri, or "death from within". This involves embedding three nanovibronic discs in an armored opponent and activating each disc's "haywire mode". Needless to say, few enemies fare well with berserk ripping machines embedded in their internals.