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b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Didn’t read South China Sea, so I really can’t comment on it.

I've taken the time to quote from the novel. Why don't you read those quotes and descriptions? You can comment on those, right?
Please don't ignore sources cited by other posters just because you haven't read them yourself. I'm providing quotes for a reason. I would hate to think that my effort is being wasted.

Grunt13 wrote:All I can do is point to the media I am familiar with.

I understand that you're going with what you're familiar with, but let me ask you this: Is the material you're citing actually relevant?
Do those examples involve veteran predators, or do they involve average predators and/or below-average predators (i.e. students)?
It matters because this thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran marine (see the OP).
South China Sea specifically features a "battle-tested" veteran predator, not an average Joe predator.

Why would you emphasize that Machiko kills "Shorty", a novice midget of his race? It's just not relevant. The Machiko character is a ridiculous concept. She also kills xenomorphs in close combat with a blade. If anything, you should be focusing on the veteran "Broken Tusked" predator in Prey. You remember "Broken Tusk", right? I could talk about how unimpressive the marines are in the Ultramarines movie, but that would be irrelevant because those marines are fresh from the Scout Company.

Grunt13 wrote:Also superman was depowered in the superman verse predator comic.

In Superman vs. Predator, a weakened Superman still lifts a Humvee over his head, kicks a stone pillar across the ground, tanks a rocket propelled grenade, punches through stone masonry (making the stone wall and ceiling collapse), and bullets still bounce off him, etc.

Anyway, I wouldn't place too much stock in crossovers. Do you think that if Batman and a Chaos Marine fight in a crossover, the writer would let Batman die like he should? Think about it.

Grunt13 wrote:Basically everyone in a movie, book, comic, etc; can claim a certain level of protection granted because of literary reasons (predators, humans, and space marines alike).

Umm no, he made a very valid point and you're totally ignoring it. Villains almost never enjoy as much plot protection as heroes do. Heroes generally enjoy a lot more plot protection than villains do. I don't know how you could ignore this. Why do you think that one Ultramarine captain is able to kill dozens of Chaos Marines in the new Space Marine game? Hint: It's because he's the protagonist and the Chaos Marines are antagonists doomed to be slaughtered.

Grunt13 wrote:one was even killed in hand-to-hand combat by a guy with a sword.

If that's how you want to play...in the Dawn of War cinematic, space marines are easily cut down with one swing of an Ork axe.

From this post I'm getting a distinct feeling you haven't actually read what grunt is saying properly. You may be claiming that you aren't discarding every 'weak' portrayal of Predators, but that's exactly what you are doing. So far, the only source you've decided is acceptable to use is South China Sea, which it appears no one else here has read. You're giving this source, which appears to be the most favourable source to predators, undue weight.

b1soul wrote:

This actually did not happen as portrayed.

"A child-like woman managed to kill a space marine commander." That sort of claim would be pretty annoying to you, right? It's a gross over-simplification, is it not?
As a predator fan (who's also a SM fan), I've had to deal with "Arnold beat a predator", "Danny Glover beat a predator", "X,Y, and Z beat a predator". These "arguments" almost never take into account the circumstances. Now do you see where I'm coming from?

Actually I don't see where you're coming from.

A space marine died to an incredibly virulent xenos toxin cocktail that was administered by a middle aged woman he thought to be a small child. This is actually a weaker portrayal of a space marine, as a certain entire legion drinks poison as a special-occasion libation.

In the Eisenhorn omnibus, a child-psyker brain-controls an Imperial Inquisitor who boom-headshots an unexpecting Space Marine for a bolt pistol instakill.

Both of those are child-like antagonists using various means to kill a Space Marine. The means are proportionate to the power of the Space Marine (a Marine-killing poison, a Marine-killing weapon).

That is very different than Ah-nold killing a Predator with a log. Or Danny Glover... the same Danny Glover who couldn't take out Jet Li in kung fu combat... taking down a veteran Yautja hunter in hand to hand. If Arnold had crashed a Blackhawk chopper into a Predator to kill it, that would be proportionate.

The stronger SM portrayals are stronger than the strong Predator portrayals. The average SM portrayals are stronger than the average Predator portrayals. The weak SM portrayals are probably on par with the weak Pred portrayals.

But the quantity of 'canon' that you are ignoring in creating your Predator portrayal tosses out quite a bit more material than what would have to be tossed out to create a 'strong' SM portrayal.

No movies. No weak fiction. No weak comics. Okay, that's fine.

Please find me, in the Predator universe, something equivalent to Calgar's stand against the Eldar Avatar in the SM codex.

Calgar tanks a direct blow from a quasi-sorcerous, burning metal combat demigod 20 feet tall, then punches a hole straight through its chest, killing it instantly.

What would be the Predator analogue?

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Do you think that if Batman and a Chaos Marine fight in a crossover, the writer would let Batman die like he should?

I doubt the writer would let him die if it was the Emperor,Khorne,Tzeentch,Nurgle,Slaanesh,Khaine,the rest of the Eldar Gods,Gork and Mork,Tuska da Daemon Killa,Ghraz,the Swarmlord,a Dominatrix,a Manta fleet,all the Primarchs,in normal form for the loyal ones,Daemon for all the Traitors,even ones that didn't Daemonize like Horus,a Mega Gargant,a Squiggoth,a Legion of SM,the Custodes,the GK,and a Titan Legion,and batman would still win!

sourclams wrote:Actually I don't see where you're coming from.

that's a pity

In the Eisenhorn omnibus...

I'm not talking about the incident you're referring to. I'm talking about when Inquisitor Eisenhorn defeats a CSM Champion* in single combat (with the help of plot necessity).
Here it is, PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THING: *Mandragore Carrion, son of Fulgrim, worthy of Slaanesh, champion of the Emperor's Children

that is very different than Ah-nold killing a Predator with a log.

In Predator, the predator could have killed Arnold at any time. At one point, he has Arnold's head between his wristblades, but the predator chooses to strip down and slap him around. He then conveniently walks into a trap. I find it amazing that instead of focusing on how easily the predator slaughters two commando teams, you decide to focus on how Arnold, the plot-armoured protagonist manages to luck out, like Eisenhorn against the CSM champion.
The same applies to Predator 2, why don't you focus on how the predator kills groups of heavily armed gangsters and special forces teams (specifically equipped and trained to capture the predator). There are also scenes in which the predator just watches Glover from short distance while cloaked. Do you seriously think that the predator couldn't have easily blown off Glover's head if the predator had wanted a quick kill? The predator also chokes Glover by the neck in one scene, but instead of gutting the cop there and then, the predator throws him aside.

The stronger SM portrayals are stronger than the strong Predator portrayals. The average SM portrayals are stronger than the average Predator portrayals. The weak SM portrayals are probably on par with the weak Pred portrayals.

I think this is where you're missing the point of the thread. This thread isn't about which character is on average superior if one takes into account all the available fluff. This thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran SM. It's that simple...stick to the topic. Veteran predators are portrayed as sufficiently skilled to pose a good challenge to a veteran marine....and by veteran marine, I'm talking about a sergeant, not Marneus Calgar or Commander Dante...

Please find me, in the Predator universe, something equivalent to Calgar's stand against the Eldar Avatar in the SM codex.

I can't...but this thread isn't about Marneus Calgar, it's about a veteran pred vs. a veteran marine (like a sergeant, not Marneus "I choke Avatars" Calgar)
I can give you the following:
1) In Prey, a veteran predator is known to have fought an xenomorph with his bare hands and killed it.
2) In Hunter's Planet, another veteran predator is known to have fought a xenomorph with his bare hands and torn off its head.
3) In Civilized Beasts, a veteran predator easily kills many drones and then solos the alien queen in close combat.
4) In South China Sea, a veteran predator kills a small army (over 150 soldiers) holding out in a fortified temple in Southeast Asia.

Calgar tanks a direct blow from a quasi-sorcerous, burning metal combat demigod 20 feet tall, then punches a hole straight through its chest, killing it instantly.

There is no predator analogous to Calgar, but Calgar is irrelevant to this thread...

Emperors Faithful wrote:From this post I'm getting a distinct feeling you haven't actually read what grunt is saying properly.

Forgive me, but you're not really saying anything of substance. You could at least offer a brief explanation of how I've misconstrued Grunt's argument.

I also hope you realize that I've only brought up "weak portrayals" of SM in response to arguments based on cherry-picking "weak portrayals" of predators.
I'm glad that at least one other poster realized this:

Nicholas wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:

b1soul wrote:
human heretics have killed SM with lucky shots (will cite the passage later)
SM have struggled with Orks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2v_cTG3K8)
SM have been killed by single bolt rounds to the armoured chest (Ultramarines movie)
an Inquisitor decapitates a CSM with a power sword (Eisenhorn)
SM have been stabbed to death by Eldar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Kiw2-v7Ss&hd=1)
CSM have been killed by a Tau Fire Warrior (Fire Warrior game)
CSM have been killed by Guardsmen (Gaunt’s Ghosts)
let's not throw the kitchen sink at each other

Neither the Dawn of War games nor Fire Warrior are considered canon. Not to mention the fact that for the DOW videos they are both intros, and so even less fluff-accurate than the game's campaigns. Plus, Fire Warrior is universally considered to be complete rubbish fluff-wise...

He only brought those out because the things you just said were already being argued. almost said the same exact thing as you too.

For experienced, "above-average" predators, I would refer to and have referred to Aliens vs. Predator Prey (the original novel, which probably should carry more weight), Civilized Beasts (a more recent comic), South China Sea (a more recent novel), Hunter's Planet (an old novel)...if someone absolutely insists on citing the movies, he should be citing AvP Requiem. The Wolf predator in AvP Requiem is confirmed by the directors to have been a veteran of his race.

I would much rather that we stick to stronger showings of veteran predators and marines. If it wasn't apparent before, I'm stating it now.
I would be happy to ignore Dawn of War, the Ultramarines movie, incidents in which guardsmen luck out against marines, etc.

Jackster wrote:Shrike will probably wipe the floor with Predators.

Well, he is Shrike...

akaean wrote:Squad of Veteran Vanguard Predators vs a Harlequin Troop.

Well, I'm not too familiar with just how good the Harlequins are.
I've read parts of Atlas Infernal, and in that novel, they wipe the floor with Deathwatch marines, so Harlequins may be a bit overpowered relative to marines and predators.

b1soul wrote:I find it amazing that instead of focusing on how easily the predator slaughters two commando teams, you decide to focus on how Arnold, the plot-armoured protagonist manages to luck out, like Eisenhorn against the CSM champion.

Because Marines can do it too. And with such contemptuous ease that it doesn't even warrant mentioning unless they somehow, inconceivably, had difficulty doing so.

And no, you're misconstruing the Eisenhorn-Mandragore "duel". Eisenhorn gets "saved" by luck with the presence of the Necroteuch, a chaos artefact of such incredible power that it gets an Imperial battle fleet decimated, an entire xenos species wiped out, and at least two planets subjected to Exterminatus simply by existing. Eisenhorn did not defeat Mandragore in any capacity; the Necroteuch overwhelmed his Slaanesh-enhanced senses and Eisenhorn did little more than deliver the coup-de-gras to a helpless foe.

The same applies to Predator 2, why don't you focus on how the predator kills groups of heavily armed gangsters and special forces teams (specifically equipped and trained to capture the predator). There are also scenes in which the predator just watches Glover from short distance while cloaked. Do you seriously think that the predator couldn't have easily blown off Glover's head if the predator had wanted a quick kill? The predator also chokes Glover by the neck in one scene, but instead of gutting the cop there and then, the predator throws him aside.

Because 'A Marine Could Do It'. That's the thing about a human-weighted index; it's not impressive when Predators go and kill a dozen humans because a Marine can do it as well, bare-handed, and in full view with bullets bouncing off him as opposed to relying on stealth tech.

And regardless of hubris, Predators do lose to unaugmented humans in close combat. Marines do not; there are always, always, remarkable circumstances at work that result in their loss.

I think this is where you're missing the point of the thread. This thread isn't about which character is on average superior if one takes into account all the available fluff. This thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran SM. It's that simple...stick to the topic. Veteran predators are portrayed as sufficiently skilled to pose a good challenge to a veteran marine....and by veteran marine, I'm talking about a sergeant, not Marneus Calgar or Commander Dante...

The point that you're missing is that you are routinely cherry-picking only the most powerful Predator depictions and wanting to compare them with relatively weak Marine depictions.

I say again, the average Marine depiction is more powerful than the average predator depiction.

The strongest predator depiction is still nowhere near the power level of the strongest Marine depictions.

You can manufacture (as you seem to be doing) strong predator depictions (by ignoring what appears to be the vast majority of the movies, fiction, and comics) and compare them to weak marine depictions like the Dawn of War 1 opening, but to what purpose? So you can get an internet-cookie?

b1soul wrote:

Think the Predator's Camouflage would keep him safe from the marine?

it could yes
in Horus Rising, the false Emperor's "Invisibles" used a light bending technology similar to predator cloaking. The "Invisibles" surprised and killed quite a few marines before the main character, captain Lokken, adjusted his lens filter to "hard chrome". Even in that vision mode, he was only able to see a faint outline. Sure, if the marine were prepared and knowledgeable, the camouflage would be much less of an issue. If the marine were unaware of the predator's abilities, it would be a major issue since we have a concrete example of what happens when marines runs into opponents who bend light.

That incident invalidates the usefulness of the Predator's camouflage, not support it. The stealth of the Invisibles was far more robust, they were literally invisible except for brief distortions/flickers when they were moving at practically super Eldar speeds. The Predator's camo is a lot less potent, seeing as he pretty much has to sit still for it to really work (otherwise it creates a shimmering blur as he moves), and even then an un-augmented human can see him if he knows where/what to look for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

b1soul wrote:

This actually did not happen as portrayed.

"A child-like woman managed to kill a space marine commander." That sort of claim would be pretty annoying to you, right? It's a gross over-simplification, is it not?
As a predator fan (who's also a SM fan), I've had to deal with "Arnold beat a predator", "Danny Glover beat a predator", "X,Y, and Z beat a predator". These "arguments" almost never take into account the circumstances. Now do you see where I'm coming from?

Actually I don't see where you're coming from.

A space marine died to an incredibly virulent xenos toxin cocktail that was administered by a middle aged woman he thought to be a small child. This is actually a weaker portrayal of a space marine, as a certain entire legion drinks poison as a special-occasion libation.

In the Eisenhorn omnibus, a child-psyker brain-controls an Imperial Inquisitor who boom-headshots an unexpecting Space Marine for a bolt pistol instakill.

Both of those are child-like antagonists using various means to kill a Space Marine. The means are proportionate to the power of the Space Marine (a Marine-killing poison, a Marine-killing weapon).

That is very different than Ah-nold killing a Predator with a log. Or Danny Glover... the same Danny Glover who couldn't take out Jet Li in kung fu combat... taking down a veteran Yautja hunter in hand to hand. If Arnold had crashed a Blackhawk chopper into a Predator to kill it, that would be proportionate.

The stronger SM portrayals are stronger than the strong Predator portrayals. The average SM portrayals are stronger than the average Predator portrayals. The weak SM portrayals are probably on par with the weak Pred portrayals.

But the quantity of 'canon' that you are ignoring in creating your Predator portrayal tosses out quite a bit more material than what would have to be tossed out to create a 'strong' SM portrayal.

No movies. No weak fiction. No weak comics. Okay, that's fine.

Please find me, in the Predator universe, something equivalent to Calgar's stand against the Eldar Avatar in the SM codex.

Calgar tanks a direct blow from a quasi-sorcerous, burning metal combat demigod 20 feet tall, then punches a hole straight through its chest, killing it instantly.

What would be the Predator analogue?

^ post wins the thread.

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Didn’t read South China Sea, so I really can’t comment on it.

I've taken the time to quote from the novel. Why don't you read those quotes and descriptions? You can comment on those, right?
Please don't ignore sources cited by other posters just because you haven't read them yourself. I'm providing quotes for a reason. I would hate to think that my effort is being wasted.

Quotes can be misleading. Plus the novel seems to be a major outlier in terms of everything else known about predators. If multiple sources say one thing and one source contradicts the general consensus then it should be scrutinized if not outright discarded, specially since no one else is familiar with it. What would your reponse be if someone here kept refrencing a novel that placed the marines abilites vastly superior then they existed in any other format (gargaled with plasma fire, threw baneblades, and bolt pistols would blow up titians) and insisted that that account should be held over every other single represtation of a marines abilites. Or another unknown book in which predators where depicted as completely incompentet warriors being mauled to death by toy poodles. This book seems to be a major outlier when compared to the other sources. Suggesting that people disregard multiple direct sources in which a single humans beats predators to death with his bare hands, but centering an entire argument on a book no one else has read in which the predator is depicted twenty times more efficient than in any other media gives the finger to rational assessment.

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:All I can do is point to the media I am familiar with.

I understand that you're going with what you're familiar with, but let me ask you this: Is the material you're citing actually relevant?
Do those examples involve veteran predators, or do they involve average predators and/or below-average predators (i.e. students)?
It matters because this thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran marine (see the OP).
South China Sea specifically features a "battle-tested" veteran predator, not an average Joe predator.

Why would you emphasize that Machiko kills "Shorty", a novice midget of his race? It's just not relevant. The Machiko character is a ridiculous concept. She also kills xenomorphs in close combat with a blade. If anything, you should be focusing on the veteran "Broken Tusked" predator in Prey. You remember "Broken Tusk", right? I could talk about how unimpressive the marines are in the Ultramarines movie, but that would be irrelevant because those marines are fresh from the Scout Company.

There is nothing about predators that suggests a skilled hunter exists at level vastly superior the general hunters every one else is familiar with. There are even two accounts AvP War (novel and comic) and AvP movie were the new recruits were not that much different compared to their experience leader. I already gave examples of a superior predator in age and gender. I don’t see much in the way of evidence that suggestions a experienced predator is that superior to all the other predators killed through out the movies, books, and comics.

Machiko is a character that existed almost as long as the notion of pitting aliens verse predators. She is featured in three different comics starting with the first comic series AvP:War and ending with the last published series. She was also in a fair number of novels like Hunter’s Planet. Saying she doesn’t count eliminates 20% of all published material in the AvP universe. Shorty is just one predator kill notch on her hilt – at least 20 directly, over a hundred indirectly. She oversaw the extermination of two separate clans. Same with Detective Schaefer, saying that he didn’t really kill all those predators is the same as saying that a huge chunk of predator background simply doesn’t exist. They are not obscure characters from a short story, these guys are key figure heads in the predator and AvP literature.

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Basically everyone in a movie, book, comic, etc; can claim a certain level of protection granted because of literary reasons (predators, humans, and space marines alike).

Umm no, he made a very valid point and you're totally ignoring it. Villains almost never enjoy as much plot protection as heroes do. Heroes generally enjoy a lot more plot protection than villains do. I don't know how you could ignore this. Why do you think that one Ultramarine captain is able to kill dozens of Chaos Marines in the new Space Marine game? Hint: It's because he's the protagonist and the Chaos Marines are antagonists doomed to be slaughtered.

Predators are also protected when they are the sole villain of the movie. Do you think it is likely that in the two first predator movies a lucky bullet will cut down the predator the first time it draws fire? Or that in the Predators movie, panic fire at the predator camp would cut down the three predator kills thus ending the movie? That door swings both ways rendering the suggestion relatively moot. The predator is the main character in both movies they are the ones protected by the literary shield. Also I stated examples which many humans fight many predators a situation where there are not protected characters.

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:one was even killed in hand-to-hand combat by a guy with a sword.

If that's how you want to play...in the Dawn of War cinematic, space marines are easily cut down with one swing of an Ork axe.

That's just one example of a space marine from a questionable source, a video game cut scene, that doesn’t offer any sensible comparison as orks have never fought predators. I played Alien verse predator games where I killed numerous predators as a human marine– should that be considered with equal pairing? I gave numerous examples of predators being killed by humans in an assortment of media both using well known material – saying the movies and more familiar books don’t count just reduces the number of people on Dakka that can actually involve themselves in the thread. Movies, books, comics, all key material directly linked to the predator universe and recognized by most people is material that should not be excluded. Every time you say this source doesn’t count for whatever reason you are shaping the assessment to a forgone conclusion. If we were going to start removing sources, it can’t be based on how it presents the predator; that is the whole point of referencing the source.

A sensible source eliminate method in order to prevent literary bias that was referenced would be that every book, comic, or movie which features just one predator has to go; as the literary shield is on that creature in a major way – if he dies the story ends, so he must not die until the very end. To remove all literary shielding, only stories that pit multiple predators verse multiple human marines can be used as then the author can afford to actual kill people off. Ideal sources for this reason alone: Movie Predators, Predator: Cold War, AvP: the Duel, AvP: War, AvP: Three World War.

Also if you want an easy assessment of a marine without any flowery literary bias just check out their rules in more complex games. Inquisitor provides the rules for a space marine in an comparable format - maybe also Dark Reign; I am not sure if there are space marine rules there. In inquisitor a space marine can tear a man in half, take a close range shotgun blast to an unprotected the face with little fuss, stand in front of a firing squad screaming “is that all you got”, walk through walls, and basically be a demigod in the game.

sourclams wrote:Eisenhorn gets "saved" by luck with the presence of the Necroteuch, a chaos artefact of such incredible power...

Arnold isn't saved by luck? Do you have any idea how hypocritical you sound?
Eisenhorn, an injured unaugmented human, even manages to parry (To Grunt13: notice how Eisenhorn's arms don't shatter?) and dodge several blows. Instead of finishing off Eisenhorn and then picking up the book, the CSM Champion conveniently decides to pick up the book first. Once his fingers wrap around the book, the book's power takes hold of him, freezing him on the spot. Eisenhorn then kills him. Is this fundamentally different from how Arnold lucks out? No...
Neither Arnold nor Eisenhorn outfight their vastly superior opponents. They luck out because they are the protagonists. Even Danny Glover doesn't outfight the predator. The predator has multiple chances to kill him but saves him for last, like how Arnold's saved for last. In the final battle, Danny Glover plays possum, the predator conveniently falls for it and walks slowly around the kneeling Glover. Glover surprises the predator and wins because the plot requires the protagonist to win.

you are routinely cherry-picking only the most powerful Predator depictions and wanting to compare them with relatively weak Marine depictions.

I'm routinely picking depictions of veteran predators because this thread is about a veteran predator vs. a veteran SM...is it really that hard to grasp?
IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE OP:

b1soul wrote:in other words, he's much better than the movie predators (sort of like the difference between marines from the recent Ultramarines movie and marines from Black Library novels)
- the predator is an elite veteran hunter (around 500 years experience)
- the marine is a veteran assault squad sergeant (from your favourite SM chapter)

The strongest predator depiction is still nowhere near the power level of the strongest Marine depictions.

You're hell-bent on missing the point aren't you?
veteran predator vs. veteran SM...that means a highly experienced predator vs. a SM sergeant
Veteran predators are close to the top of the predator hierarchy (the next steps up would be elders and ancients).
A SM marine sergeant would be significantly above-average but not elite. Thus, I'm not pitting elite against elite or average against average. I'm pitting elite against above-average because that would be an interesting fight and not a one-sided blow-out, i.e. Marneus Calgar vs. predator.

You can manufacture (as you seem to be doing) strong predator depictions

Are you running out of arguments? I didn't manufacture those depictions. That's a silly claim and you know it. Steve Perry, David Bischoff, Jeff VanderMeer, and Mike Kennedy (y'know, the authours) "manufactured" them. Would you like to say something that actually makes sense, or are you just going to accuse me of "manufacturing" despite all the quotes and scans I've provided?

by ignoring what appears to be the vast majority of the movies, fiction, and comics) and compare them to weak marine depictions like the Dawn of War 1 opening, but to what purpose?

How many times do I have to say that I've only brought up weak SM portrayals as a counterargument to weak predator portrayals...
I'm perfectly fine with sticking to the usual BL fare.

So you can get an internet-cookie?

You must want a cookie because you've kept responding to my posts, right? Please...

I would still like some examples of shoulder cannon strength please.

Something is missing from all this; a source justified account of how the actually fight would look; here’s mine:

First, some basic assessment logic:
All the weapons and personal armor that has been used by humans on predators is vastly inferior to the weaponry used in 40K. Lasguns are much better than M16s for example. At this point I consider it to be distortive to omit any source material, so everything is in. Predator blades are lighter and stronger than steel and razor sharp (movie predator 1, predator: race war) pretty much the same as the knives given to imperial guards. Predator equipment has been recovered examined, and broken in the battlefield. Example, masks have been punched through by alien second mouths (AvP movie), and broken predator equipment has been recovered from human battlefields (Bloody sands of time), armor penetrating rounds fired from M16s have shredded predators cutting through their armor (masks, shoulder guards) like it was a t-shirt (Predators: cold war).

How it would play out:
Numbers placed beside text indicate footnotes containing sources for predator referencing. Space marine abilities are based on fluff consensus and inquisitor rules plus marines are basically common knowledge to this community so I didn’t go into the same detail on their part.

Battle:
Marine in black power armor and helm walks into the woods. He smells the predator, hears its heartbeat; his enhanced eyes have little problem picking out the shimmering energy field disguising the predator who is currently up in a tree. Marine advances pistol drawn directly towards the predator. Creature realizes it has been detected, and fires its shoulder cannon, but because it didn’t have time to use the triangle points the shot is off about ten meters. Alien plasma hits a tree scorching its truck (1). Space marine watches as inaccurate shot of energy is fire by the predator misses him by wide margin – he would have side step the 40mph shots if they were accurate. He fires a quick burst with pistol, not at the predator but the branch that is supporting the creature. Three mass reactive missiles punch deep into the tree and detonate within the predator’s support. The branch explodes in a spray of splinters disrupting the predators stealth field as it sorts out (not like it was doing anything for him good anyway) (2); shoulder cannons are also damaged by fall (1). Predator lands poorly on the ground.

Space marine holsters pistol, starts up chain sword and brandishes it at the predator. Predator throws disk at the astartes who ducks projectile. The bladed circle turns around and hits him in the square in the back with a clang and falls to the ground (3). Predator charges and thrusts with spear hitting the marine square in the chest with pole arm, power armor absorbs blow and the space marine is completely unfazed by the strike (4) (5). Space marine casually backhands predator knocking off mask and causing it to spit a glob of green glowing blood from its mouth as it flops to the ground (6). Predator lashes out with wrist blades from its prone position streaking across marine’s legs causing an ugly noise as it cuts across the shin guards leaving a twin silver trail through the black paint exposing the first layer of ceramite and plasteel (4) – marine steps back and allows predator to stand, so that the creature may compete honorably. Predator retrieves weapon, swings pole arm making a series of thrust and slashes at the adeptus astarte. The marine blocks predator strikes with chain sword and unequipped forearm. Space marine plays like this for a few minutes before punching creature in sternum shattering its ribs (6) (7). Predator drops on the ground mandibles twitching and couching more green blood. The marine crushes one of its legs underfoot for good measure, hobbling the alien (7). Predator realizes fight is completely lost sets self-destruct device on arm. The marine lances off its arm bisecting the device with a flick of the chainsword (8). Marine stuns predator with cuff to the head and ties off arm to prevent creature from bleeding to death (9). Marine binds creature’s limbs and throws it over his shoulder. He then triggers commlink in his helmet to his inquisitor; “Deathwatch Marine Brock reporting successful live acquisition of alien awaiting pickup” (10).

Source Material– taken mostly from memory and some google searches for reminders:

1(strength and accuracy of shoulder blaster)
Shoulder cannon has failed to penetrate lion hide, a reinforced batman cape – in which it does not even sway batman when it directly connects, hasn’t been able to inflict significant damage to trees or background elements with missed shots, or shoot completely through a bare human torso. (Predator movie, batman verse predator, Predator: Rite of Passage).

Predators are just crappy shots. Couldn’t hit Arnold or others in the movies (predator, predators), they rely on those triangle targets which are both slow and obvious. These weapons also break somewhat easily (Predator: Rite of Passage, Predator 1).

2 (The stealth field sucks)
Normal camouflage methods are better for many reasons; human eyes are set to detect motion. When an opponent knows how a predator can conceal itself it is easy to combat it (AvP duel). Painted camouflage is better as the shimmering air effect creates moment in many cases, something human and animal eyes are built to detect – there is a reason that deer freeze up when scared. The predator would be better off attempting to conceal itself without its stealth field against an opponent that was even remotely familiar with predator tech. In Predator 2 people are even looking right at the predator thinking something like “Gee that’s a weird effect, must be a steam vent on this roof”; a little kid even offers the predator some candy while its field is active. It doesn’t work on little Timmy, but it is going to work on someone actually hunting the predator? Also these fields are creating an energy signature, which will make the predators easy to detect for anyone with the equipment to do so. These cloaking fields also break in almost every predator story; getting wet, falling, getting shot, and getting stab; have all cause the field to fail (Sources: basically every predator story, ever). My opinion on the stealth field is that since predators don’t see like a human being, they are using their best guess at a method of disguising themselves from our sight. Humans that coat themselves with mud or dip in a cold river are better at concealing themselves from the predators than the predators’ method of concealing themselves from us (predator 1, AvP deadliest, batman verse predator 3 – Mr Freeze).

3 (disk)
This weapon can cut through hanging beef and multiple human bodies. katanas are able of achieving a similar feat, but are easily blocked by chainmail and other simple armor – so it might was well be a plastic frisbee when used against someone in power armor.

4 (weapon sharpness)
Predator bladed weapons are sharp – welcome to 40K universe were the normal close combat weapons used by eldar have a mono-molecular edge and are made of wraithbone which make predator weapons edges look about as sharp and as strong as a boiled potato in comparison. Predator weapons have been examined by humans on multiple occasions, and are on record as being razor sharp, lighter and tougher than steel; They are impressive for a weapon in the 20th century; as the razors we shave our faces with are far sharper than the sharpest of swords. But that is nothing in 40K, imperial guard knives probably surpass the edge weapons of the predator both in durability of material and sharpness. Good luck cutting through power armor.

5 (predators relative strength and combat skill)
Predators are often seen landing non-lethal blows against humans – predators punching, kicking, chopping and other forms of unarmed combat does not kill the humans they are striking even when that is clearly the creature’s intent (Predator 1 &2, Predators, AvP: War, AvP: deadliest, Predator: Concrete Jungle, In Predator: Big Game, Predator: Bad Blood, AvP: three world war, batman verse predator 1-3 , Tarzan verse predator, basically every single story where there is a slug out at the end). In Predator: Bad Blood the whole series was just a big boxing match in the forest between a deranged predator and a human. Man punches predator in the face, predator punches man – this goes on for a bit. If a human being can survive repeated blows struck from a predator, then predators’ strength can not be anywhere close to that of a space marine. In predator 2 the creature struggled to lift its own body weight when hanging from the building ledge with Danny Glover. And in Predator 1 the injured predator who still had two free working hands couldn’t roll the log of himself – or maybe he just didn’t feel like trying.

At no time when comparing a murder scene of a predator attack do the authorities conclude that feats of strength performed by the attacker were beyond human capability (Predator: Race War, Predator 2). In Race War a human serial killer is arrested and takes credit for a bunch of kills performed by a predator. The condition of the bodies of the predator’s kills and the transportation of the bodies caused the authorities to look for a very strong individual with sharp specialized knives – not someone with superhuman strength. They DO NOT conclude for example, that the evidence trail indicates that multiple people had to be involve, machinery used, a non human creature like a bear was responsible, or some other situation because to the strength of the attacker showed that a human could not have possibly performed the feat – Not that at all, the authorities looked for a single, very strong, man.

Predators are not really that skilled of at melee as people make them out to be. Compared to skilled human combatants they are practically ape like. Humans fighting the predators have demonstrated that they possess superior skill, speed, and agility to compensate against the predator’s strength, better weapons, and durability. In Predator: 1718 a man using the weapons of the time fought the predator to a standstill using a sword – this combat parallels other mentions, on how predators perform when fighting warriors throughout human history, vikings, samurai, knights. There are quite a lot of examples of people killing predators with primitive weapons in straight combat, skill verse skill (Predator: Rite of Passage).

Best yet is Predator: Xenogenesis ( Official description on issue 1):
“For decades, the alien Predators have come to Earth, hunting humans as prey. But their actions haven't gone unnoticed . . . years of research have revealed their secrets. Now, the ultimate strike team of rogues and mercenaries--armed to the teeth with state-of-the-art technology--has banded together to eliminate the Predators . . . permanently.”
These guys butcher predators; that is really all that needs to be said. They are the wolves and the predators are the sheep. They aren’t sniping from a distance either. They charge right in and gut them in one-on-one combat. Predator to human kill rate is something like 10 predators for every 1 fallen human predator hunter.

6(blows struck against predator)
Humans have struck blows against the predators causing injury and pain. Predators fighting normal humans have been; hit with fist, tree branches, its own face mask, kicked by humans, stunned and knocked down often causing the predator to spit out a bunch of blood and take a few moments to recover. (concrete jungle, cold war, AvP War, AvP deadliest, predator movie 1, Bad Blood, Predators: the movie, etc). Any creature that gets hurt when punched by a normal human fist likely has its head caved in by space marine’s gauntleted punch.

7 (crushing damage)
Forces imposed on predators that have crushed their bones seen in the comics and movies. Predator suffers internal injuries and perhaps a broken spine when Arnold drops a log on it – note Arnolds character lifted log into place limiting its mass to what a human can actually pick up (Predator 1). A predator is able to crack another predators skull with his bare hands preventing it from being a trophy (AvP novel Hunter’s Planet), A bear snaps a predators spine in a bear hug (Predator: Primal). Many predators are crushed to death by a space cow stampede (AvP: original comic) A space marine in full armor stomping on a predators leg would shatter the creature’s bones like glass.

8 (self destruction device)
Not really sure the predator would even try to use it in this situation as when on Earth the point of the explosion is to conceal the predators existence – not really used in the futuristic settings of AvP were humans can move between the stars. Device is disabled when Danny Glover cuts off predators arm destroying device in the process. (predator 2)

9 (knocked outs and injuries)
Predators have been stunned knocked out and suffered injuries that require medically attention to save their lives (AvP: original comic, AvP: War, Predator 2, AvP: Deadliest). They can die due to internal injuries and blood loss, get stunned by blows inflicted by humans, and generally handle injuries the same as a large, tough, human would (Predator: Bad Blood).

10 (reason why marine just didn’t outright murder predator)
The marine would have been able to put a bolt round right through creatures mask at thirty paces with his pistol (see Basic assessment logic). It is not unheard of for an inquisitor to send deathwatch marines to acquire a living sample. This bit of fluff explains why the marine was holding back during the fight. Why he just didn’t gun it down, blow it up with a frak grenade, cut it in half with a chainsword, or slap its head around its neck for example.

Conclusion:
The logic is very simple and straightforward - if a normal human can inflict injury on/kill a predator using inferior equipment such as; modern weapons 20th century/ medieval, bronze age, or even stone age weapons / tree branches/ knives/ bare hands, and out fight it using their combat skills. Then a space marine can shatter its skull with the back of his hand. I consider my conclusion to be logical and based on the evidence at hand. I know it seems harsh for the predator, but really, it is fighting a space marine after all.

Considering how irregular both space marines and predators are portrayed skill wise, I really don't see how this thread could ever amount to anything more than a tie at best, or "I'm right and you're wrong" at worst. Different characters from different universes with different technology.

I've nothing against these kinds of threads but if anyone is frothing out the mouth in this thread, then that's a bit foolish.

Necroshea wrote:Considering how irregular both space marines and predators are portrayed skill wise, I really don't see how this thread could ever amount to anything more than a tie at best, or "I'm right and you're wrong" at worst. Different characters from different universes with different technology.

I've nothing against these kinds of threads but if anyone is frothing out the mouth in this thread, then that's a bit foolish.

I agree. After reading through every page of this thread, it really just seems to be fanboys screaming that their fictional character is better than the other fanboys fictional character. To be honest this is how pretty much all of these threads work out, I just tune in to watch the carnage.

To the forum members who are still debating (sourclaims, Omegus, Grunt13):
Firstly, thanks for keeping this thread alive
Secondly, I would like to ask a simple question and I would appreciate an answer.
The original post says:

b1soul wrote:- the predator is an elite veteran hunter (around 500 years experience)
- the marine is a veteran assault squad sergeant (from your favourite SM chapter)

Q: If the predator in this fight is an "elite veteran hunter", why should I give weight to portrayals of average or novice predators? Why shouldn't I stick to portrayals of "elite veteran hunters"?
I'm not being as selective as you claim. By specifying in the OP that the predator is an "elite veteran hunter", I've narrowed down the relevant sources.
I've asked this question before and I have yet to receive an answer. For instance, the marine in this thread is a veteran sergeant. I wouldn't cite how some run-of-the-mill tactical marine gets killed in book XYZ.

b1soul wrote:I could talk about how unimpressive the marines are in the Ultramarines movie, but that would be irrelevant because those marines are fresh from the Scout Company.

Necroshea wrote:Considering how irregular both space marines and predators are portrayed skill wise, I really don't see how this thread could ever amount to anything more than a tie at best, or "I'm right and you're wrong" at worst. Different characters from different universes with different technology.

Lyzin Locrian wrote:I just tune in to watch the carnage.

Well, whether this thread is enjoyable depends on the participant's attitude.
I genuinely enjoy discussing/debating stuff like this when I'm bored. I'm not trying to prove beyond a doubt that I'm right and that the other side is wrong. The back and forth debating is what I find to be fun.

Please don't drag me into this, I have not been contributing to the debate except to suggest that your argument may be disingenuous and to highlight a few posts that I thought were particularly to the point.

If you want this to be "super hero awesome Predator guy from that one book where he killed 150 Chinese guys" vs. average sergeant, then I guess they tie? Like someone said before, the most epic Predator feats pale even compared to mildly epic Space Marine feats. Average Predators pale in comparison to average Space Marines. Weak-sauce Predators are probably just as embarrassing as weak-sauce Space Marines, except there are more examples of weak-sauce Predators.

That being said, a comment for the thread-critics: I don't think anyone is "frothing at the mouth" in this thread, and as long as people are enjoying (or at least willing to spend/waste time) debating the topic, who are you to judge? Go start your own thread about whatever bs you consider important and avoid this one. Simple.

Omegus wrote:If you want this to be "super hero awesome Predator guy from that one book where he killed 150 Chinese [Cambodian] guys" vs. average sergeant, then I guess they tie? Like someone said before, the most epic Predator feats pale even compared to mildly epic Space Marine feats.

Simple question: If average predators are garbage compared to average marines, and top predators are garbage compared to top marines, what would be the point of making a thread about these lop-sided match-ups? So you can go on about how the marine stomps? Your logic doesn't make any sense...what would be the point of discussing a one-sided blow-out, other than to jock the marine?

Please don't drag me into this

When you click on a thread, click on reply, and start typing, no one is "dragging" you into anything.

Okay, well, I'm going to toss my 10 cents into this. For one, the Space Marine Vanguard Sergeant comes equipped with A: a power sword or B: a lightning claw. This is from the Space marine codex, he is also equipped with Frag and Krak Grenades, bolt pistol, and power armor. Which is a decent loadout in my opinion to fight anybody with. A Veteran Predator has a spear and over the shoulder plasma cannon if I recall correctly. Both combatants have a long experience of fiighting, although a space marine sergeant may have more, or less, depending on how fast he went up the ranks. It also comes down to where they are fighting, how fast they get into close combat with each other. But mroe importantly, I think it's more important how the fight starts, and what range. It could start with the Predator attacking the space marine from a forest into an open field at the Space marine, who could either react fast enough to dodge the plasma bolt, or die right there, it would then get into a series of cat and mouse for the space marine, due to having to charge a plasma weapon by himself without knowing where the shot came from. Or in other terms, the two could be fighting at close quarters in a forest, Where then the predator might be able to pop off a few shots at the space marine without recieving return fire. Once the space marine knows he's being stalked or recieves fire, he will automatically react to the predator and find cover, searching for the predator, due to his skills and abilities as a marine, he can pinpoint the predator's location, firing a few shots will force the predator to either move out of the way, or exchange fire. A bolt pistol and Plasma gun at close range is an even match up if both are in cover. but while this could be happening, either one of the combatants could be moving closer to the other, trying to get into close combat. In my opionion I think the Space marine would start making his way to the predator, hugging cover, untill he either gets shot, or gets within range of the predator, who can either retreat and move out of sight of the space marine and gain more ground, or go into cc with the space marine. In which case, the space marine could have an advantage. Both the space marine and the predator have a way to fight, but if the predator had a plasma blade, it might go like this. A: the space marine exchanges strikes with the predator, expecting a power weapon, and strikes at a given time trying to land a vital blow, the predator can move back and stab at the space marine's eye cover, or at a gap in his power armor, if he strikes at a gap in the space marines power armor, ath the neck, going into his chest, the space marine could tank the damage, and grab the haft of the spear or plasma blade, and obtain a clear show with the bolt pistol at close range which could end the fight easily, or if the predator can get a stab into the space marine's neck with a plasma blade, he can stab into the marine's neck, and kill him instantly. There are so many variables that could happen in this match up, you cant really expect who would win at any given time.


I dont know much about predators, but im also trying to give them an honest chance, while also limiting the space marine ROFLSTOMP XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, well, I'm going to toss my 10 cents into this. For one, the Space Marine Vanguard Sergeant comes equipped with A: a power sword or B: a lightning claw. This is from the Space marine codex, he is also equipped with Frag and Krak Grenades, bolt pistol, and power armor. Which is a decent loadout in my opinion to fight anybody with. A Veteran Predator has a spear and over the shoulder plasma cannon if I recall correctly. Both combatants have a long experience of fiighting, although a space marine sergeant may have more, or less, depending on how fast he went up the ranks. It also comes down to where they are fighting, how fast they get into close combat with each other. But mroe importantly, I think it's more important how the fight starts, and what range. It could start with the Predator attacking the space marine from a forest into an open field at the Space marine, who could either react fast enough to dodge the plasma bolt, or die right there, it would then get into a series of cat and mouse for the space marine, due to having to charge a plasma weapon by himself without knowing where the shot came from. Or in other terms, the two could be fighting at close quarters in a forest, Where then the predator might be able to pop off a few shots at the space marine without recieving return fire. Once the space marine knows he's being stalked or recieves fire, he will automatically react to the predator and find cover, searching for the predator, due to his skills and abilities as a marine, he can pinpoint the predator's location, firing a few shots will force the predator to either move out of the way, or exchange fire. A bolt pistol and Plasma gun at close range is an even match up if both are in cover. but while this could be happening, either one of the combatants could be moving closer to the other, trying to get into close combat. In my opionion I think the Space marine would start making his way to the predator, hugging cover, untill he either gets shot, or gets within range of the predator, who can either retreat and move out of sight of the space marine and gain more ground, or go into cc with the space marine. In which case, the space marine could have an advantage. Both the space marine and the predator have a way to fight, but if the predator had a plasma blade, it might go like this. A: the space marine exchanges strikes with the predator, expecting a power weapon, and strikes at a given time trying to land a vital blow, the predator can move back and stab at the space marine's eye cover, or at a gap in his power armor, if he strikes at a gap in the space marines power armor, ath the neck, going into his chest, the space marine could tank the damage, and grab the haft of the spear or plasma blade, and obtain a clear show with the bolt pistol at close range which could end the fight easily, or if the predator can get a stab into the space marine's neck with a plasma blade, he can stab into the marine's neck, and kill him instantly. There are so many variables that could happen in this match up, you cant really expect who would win at any given time.


I dont know much about predators, but im also trying to give them an honest chance, while also limiting the space marine ROFLSTOMP XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gah, sorry, double posting.

b1soul wrote:

Omegus wrote:If you want this to be "super hero awesome Predator guy from that one book where he killed 150 Chinese [Cambodian] guys" vs. average sergeant, then I guess they tie? Like someone said before, the most epic Predator feats pale even compared to mildly epic Space Marine feats.

Simple question: If average predators are garbage compared to average marines, and top predators are garbage compared to top marines, what would be the point of making a thread about these lop-sided match-ups? So you can go on about how the marine stomps? Your logic doesn't make any sense...what would be the point of discussing a one-sided blow-out, other than to jock the marine?

There is no point because it IS a one-sided blow-out, unless you impose a myriad of restrictions like you've done in this thread. So okay, the most epic and heroic Predator evar ties with the average Space Marine sergeant. He wins a few, and loses a few, depending on the vagaries of fate. Next question?

Several people still don't realize that this thread isn't about which group is better overall (out of predators and space marines). If this thread were about that, then yes, we should be comparing inexperienced to inexperienced, average to average, above-average to above-average, elite to elite, etc. We'd also have to take into account that predators have nothing comparable to Calgar, Dante, Azrael, Grimnar, etc. This group isn't about which group is better. As the thread-starter, I've purposefully tried to pick well-matched combatants. How would a lop-sided battle be interesting to discuss? It wouldn't.

Grunt13 wrote:Predators are not really that skilled of at melee as people make them out to be. Compared to skilled human combatants they are practically ape like.

In AvP Prey (the original and best-known AvP novel), predators are very good at melee combat, especially the veterans.
If you pick the representation least likely to pose a threat to the space marine, then I guess the marine stomps. If you pick a stronger representation (AvP Prey), we'd have an interesting fight to talk about.

predator student in action against multiple xenomorphs (AvP Prey):


predator veteran in action against multiple xenomorphs (AvP Prey):

UltramarineRV wrote:In my opinion...

Nice tactical breakdown. I was hoping most people would analyze tactics. I think it would be in the predator's best interest to maintain range. Though I am of the opinion that the predator's blades (whether plasma-based or metallic) would be able to penetrate power armour, the marine's power armour would still be able to deflect some blows. On the other hand, the predator's flesh is mostly exposed. In a forest/jungle environment, the predator's best bet would be to stay in the trees, keep moving, and position himself for a good shot.
The marine would probably want to hug cover like you've said. It would be harder for the marine to conceal himself though because the predator would be looking down from the trees. I guess a jump pack may even the odds, but I don't think a jump pack would be very useful in a dense jungle or even a forest with a lot of trees. A jump pack would be of greater use in a more open environment.

predator shoulder cannon power
Exactly how powerful the shoulder cannon is is a matter for speculation. There are different designs (like human guns) and different power settings. In the AvP EU, predators are mostly shooting xenomorphs and colonial marines. Bullets sometimes bounce off xenomorph exoskeletons.


blowing up an Apache attack helicopter

Any example of shoulder cannon against hard armored targets closer to ceremite. The closest there was the helicopter which isn't well armored in some places. It was stated before that it was stopped by lion skin and trees.

Rolls to wound of 1 alweays fail...

Omegus wrote:the most epic and heroic Predator evar ties with the average Space Marine sergeant

A number of highly experienced and skilled predators have been portrayed in the fiction. To pose a challenge to the sergeant, the predator doesn't have to be the"most epic and heroic predator evar" (whatever that means...predators are usually the antagonists). The predator simply has to be a respected veteran of his race.

depending on the vagaries of fate.

Exactly what type of vs. thread would not be pointless to you? According to you, if it's a blow-out, there's nothing to discuss. If it's a close fight, there's nothing to discuss. You make no sense.

By the way, there's plenty to talk about other than "the vagaries of fate". Off the top of my head...the predator and the space marine employ different tactics, use different weapons/equipment. The predator can leap great heights/distances, the marine is mostly grounded. With a jump pack, the marine can fly short distances but the jump pack's usefulness might be limited by environmental obstruction. Against powerful opponents, the predator would probably observe and wait for a chance to ambush. A marine would probably be more aggressive, especially an assault sergeant. The predator's style of combat is generally more unconventional. Experienced predators like to set traps/ambushes and surprise prey (young, inexperienced predators tend to jump straight into battle to prove themselves). Assault marines are shock troops who usually work as a group on the battlefield...etc.
There's much to talk about, you just haven't thought about it.

Nicholas wrote:Any example of shoulder cannon against hard armored targets closer to ceremite. The closest there was the helicopter which isn't well armored in some places. It was stated before that it was stopped by lion skin and trees.

different power settings, different shoulder cannon models, inconsistent showings...take your pick
if a shoulder cannon blasts through the armoured skin of a xenomorph, how can it be stopped by lion skin?

Grunt13 wrote:Predators are also protected when they are the sole villain of the movie.

Being the sole villain doesn't change the fact that the predator is doomed to lose, it only delays the predator's inevitable defeat at the hands of a protagonist. Bullets often miss the predator because 1) he's usually invisible, 2) he can leap into the trees, and 3) he often takes his prey by surprise.
The predator also has partial armour which can deflect bullets. Even in the movies (which are generally watered down compared to other media), a predator tanks nine point blank shotgun blasts.

Predator all the way specially a vet pred shuld play around with his hunt. X

I think the insistence on a predator vet might be turning a lot of people away from this discussion. The vast majority of people here do not properly know how to make a distinction between a predator hunter, which they are familiar with from the movies and a very old, experienced one. Truth be told, I don’t really know how much better a warrior a 500-year old vet is supposed to be compared to a typical hunter. By insisting on such a particular type of predator you are restricting data to such a point where people have no clue. How much better is this predator you are talking about than all the other predator hunters? All my accounts with these experienced predators are that they are only marginally superior than other hunters in skill, tactics, and common sense. I really don’t see any strong evidence that a 500 year-old vet would perform that much bettered than a typical hunter depicted in the movies when fighting a space marine. Here are some examples of predator vets:

Broken Tusk:
Fought a hunter in combat in which he killed his opponent. Fight was close, as combatants seemed to be equally skilled. He turned against the young predators he was leading when they left him for dead and went after human non-combatants.

Big Mamma:
Supposedly the biggest, meanest, and oldest predator out there; also as a female she is both larger and stronger than male predators. She competes against several humans throughout the series; training, sparing, fighting. Her abilities as a warrior don’t even come near to the expectations people have for space marines – also bested in close combat by main character who is a female human.

Pack Leader from AvP: Three world Wars:
Killed in direct combat by Machiko, This predator was leading the party. By besting him the humans won the right to conference with them in which they decide to team up and exterminate the killers.

Old Dragon - Head predator in Xenogenesis:
700+ year old predator leader fights 700 year old human who eats predator hearts to stay immortal, also has a personal beef with this particular predator. The human is armed with a knife. Human wins the fight demonstrating superior skill.


GODZILLA VS KING KONG

40 years of so ago Japan decides to make a movie depicting their giant monster, Godzilla, against the American giant monster, King Kong, there was also an English version made. Didn’t see either movie, but a friend told me that the Japanese version had Godzilla winning the fight and the English version made later had King Kong winning the battle; my friend stated it as an issue of national monster pride at play here which we both found comically. Both movies portrayed the monsters in an equal setting and in an extended fight that had neither obvious superior to the other. If you probably walked up to people on the street and asked them that question, people would probably consider a close fight; pick a side and defend it using some logical like; "Godzilla has fire breath but Kong as better agility"; "Godzilla is stronger, but Kong can climb and jump" or whatever justifications.

Here’s the problem with those lines of thought; King Kong is 50 feet tall and Godzilla is 400. Really it was never contest, but when the movies came out the monsters were equal size to fight each other. That’s what I feel is being done with the predators verse space marine discussion. The difference between the strength, speed, skill, durability and general ability to fight between the space marine and the predator is pretty the same as the difference between Godzilla's and King Kong's size. To a human that is being stepped on it might make little difference whose foot it is, but that does not mean they are anywhere close to being equals.

Predator’s Ability:
To give a sense of scale, replay the movie Predator 1 in your mind. But edit out the predator and put a kroot in its spot. Nothing the in the movie save arming the self-destruction device cannot be realistic performed by the basic kroot. Hunt basically naked - check; shoot a bunch of people while hiding in a tree, as all return fire is at head level – check; hop from tree to tree while not reveling presence – check; kill a guy brandishing a knife in close combat – check; chase Arnold through the woods firing inaccurately – check; slap around a human in unarmed combat proving that it is much stronger and tougher then they are – check; and finally get crushed by a tree – check. Kroot are bigger, stronger, and tougher than humans. They are phrase-mimicking aliens that like to hunt practically naked, take trophies, have weird hair, and embrace a tribal honor system. The kroot ARE the Predators of 40K.

Predators just cannot fairly compete against a space marine in a one-on-one. Much more suitable opponents for the predator in a straight fight would be:
Kroot
Ork Boy
Tau Stealth Suit pilot
Eldar Ranger
Catachen Vet in a death world setting.

I can show numerous pictures of humans killing predators - some with relative ease. Here is Machiko killing the predator leader in hand to hand (wristblades predator made, knife human made – future society) other two pictures are from Cold War.

True, Predators can be defined as similar to warhammer 40k kroot, but remember, we can only speculate what the weapons will do to the space marine, yes, plasma will kill him, but it could be less, or more, it could burn through his cover, or just slime on his pauldron. Using an anology of king kong vs. godzilla is like saying as a Imperial guardsman is like david to goliath. A kroot has horrible aim by himself, not having a reliable gun to aim, a predator on the other hand, has a better way of aiming his gun, which makes the kroot basically a unit that shoots worse when it moves, but better when it stays still. A space marine on the other hand, and a veteran sergeant at that, has more experience fighting kroot, stealth suits, eldar, dark eldar etc... Which basically gives him a smaller advantage when fighting a preadator, giving that some of the tactics are better. But when it comes down to it, it matters on who has more skill, agility, speed, weapon and accuracy with said weapon. A space marine goes through many flighty enemies so that gives him a slight advantage, though they might be similarly equipped in close combat, the predator has the best range. BOTH ARE EQUAL, BOTH HAVE SIMILAR WEAPONS, BOTH HAVE SIMILAR SKILLS, It comes down to who starts, range and etc... Imperial guard can kill space marines at range, whats to say a predator cant?

Grunt13 wrote:I think the insistence on a predator vet might be turning a lot of people away from this discussion.

I dunno...maybe an insistence on ignoring the OP is turning people away from the discussion? I'm insisting on a "elite veteran predator" because that's what's stated in the OP. Why is it so hard to stay on topic.

Your line of reasoning not only ignores the OP, it's the old "A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C" logical fallacy.
I guess since humans have killed marines with random lasgun shots, a predator would easily snipe a marine?
Since Orks have cut down marines with a swing of the axe, a marine would lose to a predator?
Since guardsmen have ambushed (and killed) chaos marines, a predator would easily ambush a marine? This type of simplistic reasoning is the bane of vs. threads.
Sadly, it's the only argument you've made so far.

Furthermore, by focusing almost entirely on melee, you've barely addressed the ranged aspect of this battle. Predators have sniped plenty of victims too y'know...

I can show numerous pictures

Your point? None of those predators are "elite veteran hunters". They're just average predators who end up losing to a protagonist.
Why do you insist on ignoring the OP? Please make your own thread if you want to discuss how a random run-of-the-mill predator would fare against a space marine.
It would be a stomp? OK great, please make your own thread about it. What you're doing is like citing average marines to prove that a marine captain would lose a fight.

Old Dragon . . . 700 year old human

Nope, that character states that "I've spent over a thousand years playing a deadly game with the one who bested me". Yeah...he's as old as Commander Dante. By the time he bests the predator, he's far from a normal human. Are you sure a 300 year old space marine would necessarily beat him in hand to hand?

Pack Leader from AvP: Three world War

1) Umm...now you're just making stuff up. That's a random predator who happens to be standing close to Machiko.
She takes him by surprise (she even admits this). Are you assuming he's the leader because he materializes first? For all we know, the red predator could be the leader.
2) Machiko, as portrayed in the AvP series, is NOT a normal human by any stretch of the imagination. She's about as normal as Batman, Tarzan, or Conan. Think about it...she's a small woman who kills xenomorphs in melee combat.
3) In Three World War, there's an obviously older predator (y'know...the one wearing the cape), why don't you cite him? Obviously he's a respected leader/veteran.

Again, why do you totally ignore how many aliens Broken Tusk easily slaughters in melee combat? You've read Prey, right? He's a respected veteran, why don't you cite how easily he carves through hordes of aliens?

Here's a high-ranking predator in action (Civilized Beasts). In the comic he leads other predators, who appear to be his students. He easily stomps alien drones and defeats a T-Rex-sized alien queen in close combat. Has a single marine beaten a Carnifex? Do you really think he'd lose to Machiko in close combat?












Here's Broken Tusk in action.

Based on the material printed here I'm more or less convinced that this 500-year-old Vet Hunter is, in Predator society, the equivalent to a Company Captain or possibly even a Chapter Master.

So, again:

Strong Marines trump strong Predators.

Average Marines trump average Predators.

Strong Predators 'matching down' to average Marines win.

b1soul wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:I think the insistence on a predator vet might be turning a lot of people away from this discussion.

I dunno...maybe an insistence on ignoring the OP is turning people away from the discussion? I'm insisting on a "elite veteran predator" because that's what's stated in the OP. Why is it so hard to stay on topic.

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Aliens/Predator:_Deadliest_of_the_Species
Big Mamma is the pinnacle of her species. She is to predators what the alien queen is to the bugs and the genetically engineered, perfect human, Caryn, is to mankind. The three “deadliest” of their species, to reference the title and theme of the book. She is to predators what Calgar is to space marines. She almost dies when shot, is captured multiple times, and gets into a lot of direct confrontations with humans allowing for her abilities to be assessed in a straightforward and rational manner. She is the very, very best of the predators – and while capable, she is no space marine.

The Original Post made this query:
X * (Predator) *(elite veteran status) = Y * (Space Marine) * (elite veteran status)

The disputed values:
X being the predator’s lose rate against Marine the
Y being the marine’s lose rate to the predator.

All the (elite veteran status) does is give people the ability to remove anything that doesn’t show their side accomplishing the most outrageous acts and discarding anything that they don’t like – which is 99% of the useful data. If pharmaceutical companies did this they could start selling sugar pills as the cure to cancer. Also either the Marine or the Predator could be switched out with an Ewok and the star war fanboys could pull up a bunch of examples justifying statement that the ewok would butcher its opponent. But, as middle school math class taught us, we can remove the common denominators.

X * (Predator) = Y * (Space Marine)
Is basically the same in term of X and Y as:
X * (Predator) *(elite veteran status) = Y * (Space Marine) * (elite veteran status)

And it allows people to actually view the situation without data being rejected from either camp. The joe-average tactical space marine verse a joe-average predator hunter fight results will give basically the same results as an elite sergeant verse elite hunter fight. And it prevents the whole “that doesn’t count because that guy wasn’t super elite nonsense both sides are capable of producing to no end”. Finding the results by pitting the norms against each other to figure out how to elites with face against each other is the most sensible course of action. As the currently having someone remove any data they don’t like will basically mean the conversation becomes people saying, “that doesn’t count, that doesn’t count, etc”; resulting in zero data for assessment.

Again Predators are not all that. They are constantly being killed in single combat by human beings – often using instruments inferior to modern weapons:

Omegus wrote:The stealth of the Invisibles was far more robust, they were literally invisible except for brief distortions/flickers when they were moving at practically super Eldar speeds.

You're making assumptions now.
On what passages in the book are you basing your claim that their camouflage is "more robust" and that they move at super Eldar speeds?
I've re-read that scene. Well-trained humans (no mention of augmentation or super speed) equipped with light-bending technology are able to snipe space marines.

sourclams wrote:. . . Strong Predators 'matching down' to average Marines

again, this thread isn't about determining which group is superior on average

The oldest predators in the fluff have been around for more than a thousand years. They haven't shown signs of advanced age, thus their maximum life span is probably even longer. Predators and space marines are alike in that both get better as they get older. A 500 year old predator wouldn't be chapter master level. Predator elders and ancients would be the closest equivalent to chapter masters. A 500 year old veteran would be around higher-ranked sergeant to lower-ranked captain level.

How many Elite veteran Predators are there? I only know of a handful, but I'm not really big into predator, so there would probably be more.

If its a veteran Assault sgt with all the trimmings, than I'd give it to the marine.

Nicholas wrote:Any example of shoulder cannon against hard armored targets closer to ceramite

You can compare what a single bolt round does to a person to what a plasma bolt does...as I've said, discrepancies can be attributed to different shoulder cannon models, different power settings, and/or inconsistent showings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0zMypMSkc (0:20)
Keep in mind that the charging sound is in the predator's helmet.

I'm still looking for more examples with "hard armoured" targets.