Medusas...surely some catch?

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**Polonius**

The vindicator and the medusa are only superficially identical.

The medusa is more accurate, can cause damage with far scatters against tight packed armies, is AP1, is S10, and has a blast option for non-armor.

**alarmingrick**

Ailaros wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).

Again, which is your opinion. I'd favor the Medusa over the Vanquisher. My opinion.
If my shot scatters, I might still hit something. If a Vanquisher shot misses, there's no template for the shell wizzing past, although it sounds scary as hell.
Plus I've spent less points on the Medusa, meaning I've probably have something in the form of a backup should I miss.

**Joey**

I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).

Again, which is your opinion. I'd favor the Medusa over the Vanquisher. My opinion.
If my shot scatters, I might still hit something. If a Vanquisher shot misses, there's no template for the shell wizzing past, although it sounds scary as hell.
Plus I've spent less points on the Medusa, meaning I've probably have something in the form of a backup should I miss.

If you want cheap anti-tank, Devil Dog. S8 small blast multi-melta, plus hull mounted multi-melta, plus AV 12/12/10, plus not open-topped, plus 135 points with MM.

**alarmingrick**

Joey wrote:I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.

Which is a solid choice, but remember you're going to have to be 12-24" closer than the Medusa would have to be.

**Joey**

alarmingrick wrote:
Joey wrote:I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.

Which is a solid choice, but remember you're going to have to be 12-24" closer than the Medusa would have to be.

A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think. I've never found Demolishers' short range to be a problem anyway, maybe if I played against Tau or other IG.

**DarkHound**

Joey wrote:Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%.
...
A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think.

What? Why? Landraiders are pretty difficult to obscure, plus you have 6" of movement to adjust your LoS. Plus the vast majority of targets won't want to pop smoke and will need to expose themselves to fire their weapons. The Medusa isn't a weapon for Rhinos. It kills Predators, Monoliths, Russes, Landraiders, Doomsday Arks, etc. etc.

**Joey**

DarkHound wrote:
Joey wrote:Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%.
...
A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think.
What? Why? Landraiders are pretty difficult to obscure, plus you have 6" of movement to adjust your LoS. Plus the vast majority of targets won't want to pop smoke and will need to expose themselves to fire their weapons. The Medusa isn't a weapon for Rhinos. It kills Predators, Monoliths, Russes, Landraiders, Doomsday Arks, etc. etc.

Land Raiders can get easy cover when every game you play is filled with ruins that tanks can plow through at will (not my fault, my WAAC opponant).
The only thing you need specialised weaponry for is AV14, Predators are either too far away or close enough to get side armour on.
You're statistically very unlikely to kill a Land Raider before it drops its payload anyway. So try to by all means, but don't opt for an open-topped AV12 over a Leman Russ in order to hurt your long term survivability in exchange for a slightly increased chance of doing something that's not that useful anyway.

**DarkHound**

Joey wrote:Land Raiders can get easy cover when every game you play is filled with ruins that tanks can plow through at will (not my fault, my WAAC opponant).
The only thing you need specialised weaponry for is AV14, Predators are either too far away or close enough to get side armour on.
You're statistically very unlikely to kill a Land Raider before it drops its payload anyway. So try to by all means, but don't opt for an open-topped AV12 over a Leman Russ in order to hurt your long term survivability in exchange for a slightly increased chance of doing something that's not that useful anyway.

There isn't any rule that says models can't move through walls, so that means they can? I'd argue permissive rule-set, etc. Plus you have the power to say models can't drive through walls when you declare terrain. That's a very weird rule, whatever.

Anyway, Medusas score a penetrating hit 68.some-odd% of the time against Landraiders, assuming 5" of average acceptable scatter. You can immobilize or slag that Landraider in two turns. If you have any mobility at all, the Terminators will be useless.

Except for Fast Skimmers, I don't think you can get the side of a Predator at 36". My Predator can usually find a wall to cover one of its flanks, then angle it so you can't get into the other. I'd have to be aiming at something else for you to get side armor even at 24". My Tri-Las Predator pens a Chimera a turn, so the need to silence it becomes pretty urgent.

**Almarine**

I'm a big fan of the medusa, but it has its downsides. When you field it, it's generally in one of two situations:

A: Nothing on the table warrants its fury, like razorwolves or mech csm that you can just use autocannons and missiles to take out.
B: There's heavy armor about, meaning your opponent will see it as top priority.

Here's how I strive to use it:

1. Use terrain and hulls to block the LOS of as many units as possible, except the target.
2. If the target can shoot back, make sure there's some backup firepower in case you miss.
3. Shoot it with medusa, hit and roll good damage.
4. If you're still exposed, run out in front with some cheap sentinels for cover.

Obviously this requires a lot of planning compared to just taking some storm troopers, and it can break down due to a number of causes (enemy's in cover, fast melta, wolf scouts, bad luck etc.) but it's really cool when you get it right. Though I agree that the medusa is pretty lame without BB shells, you're better off with a demolisher then.

**Flavius Infernus**

Actually there is a rule that says you can move through walls. It's on page 14.

I'm still with Dark Hound here, for me mainly because the medusa is AP1.

All the russes have about the same chance of hitting a heavy tank as a medusa, but only the medusa (and devil dogs) kill the target on a 4+. Except for necrons who are killed on a 3+.

**sudojoe**

ruins, fences, trees, etc all can moved/walls crushed by tanks as long as you don't roll a 1.

If you drive into area terrain, you just can't be on top of another alive vehicle but ok to park on top of wreckage. and you cannot go up floors.

As an aside question, does a tank behing in area terrain like on top of the wreckage of another tank count as being in cover?

**Mannahnin**

50% or more of the armor facing the firer is in needs to be hidden from the perspective of the firing model (or half or more of the firing models if more than one in a unit is firing.)

Welcome to 5th edition.

**Joey**

Mannahnin wrote:50% or more of the armor facing the firer is in needs to be hidden from the perspective of the firing model (or half or more of the firing models if more than one in a unit is firing.)

Welcome to 5th edition.

Thanks to my awesome house rules you can simply park vehicles in ruins behind the walls, guaranteeing covers.

**Ailaros**

Without the rules, still...

The medusa is only going to hit the land raider about half the time (bigger target, but the hole being on is necessary), and it still has to roll to penetrate the armor (only about 84% of the time - put another way, it pens on a 2+ and you can roll a proverbial 1), and you still need to roll on the top half of the damage table.

Even without cover, you're only wrecking a land raider in about 1 of 5 shots you take at it. Given that it's probably not going to survive its first turn out of cover after it makes its first shot, what you've got is still long odds, even without cover.

**DarkHound**

Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time. You need to remember, it can still kill a Landraider when scattering off, which adds just over 1%. Plus you only need an Immobilized result, which you get a total of 45% of the time.

And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis. When I used it, it stayed alive by hanging out around the corners of the board, keeping a Russ between it and predators (generic term). The board is 72" across. If you can stay on the opposite end of your opponent's 48" weapons, he can't touch you. It'll be 2 or 3 turns before reserves or faster units can take it out.

**Joey**

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

DarkHound wrote:
And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis. When I used it, it stayed alive by hanging out around the corners of the board, keeping a Russ between it and predators (generic term). The board is 72" across. If you can stay on the opposite end of your opponent's 48" weapons, he can't touch you. It'll be 2 or 3 turns before reserves or faster units can take it out.

Problem is, they compete with Russes for heavy slots. Take 1 Medusa and 2 Leman Russ and the enemy will just concentrate fire on the Medusa. Take 2 Medusas and 1 Leman Russ and you're sacrificing a large pie plate for a small one.

**DarkHound**

Flavius Infernus and sudojoe wrote:Actually there is a rule that says you can move through walls. It's on page 14.

Unless the players agree otherwise. My group tends to think rolling through a building is a great way to get your tank stuck, plus the game doesn't simulate what happens when you put a hole in a building. But my point is moot if he plays like that.

I've never seen slot competition as a factor since Russes prefer to be in squadrons. I used to run an IA1 Armored Company, but found the Russes usually combined fire anyway. It's very hard to put a penetrating hit on a Russ, so being in a squadron lets the Shaken Russ pop smoke and give cover to the other one. I'd take 4 Russes and 1 or 2 Medusas at 1500 points, easy.

**Mannahnin**

Joey wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

**Joey**

Mannahnin wrote:
Joey wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

**DarkHound**

Joey wrote:Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Actually, a BS4 Meltagunner has a 39% chance of penetrating, with an additional 8% chance to glance. Getting a glance really doesn't hurt AV14 because you don't have the weight of fire to strip it down. Plus those Veterans will need a Chimera, and they'll need to get really close in order to do any damage. Your opponent gets a turn free before needing to pop smoke, and then your Meltaguns probably won't get a hit on the table. Then they'll die because they're out of position, sitting in the face of the opponent's spearhead. That kind of suicide is far less situational than potentially being vulnerable to weapons 48" away.

Plus the Veterans will never get to do anything about a Leman Russ or a Predator or a Doomsday Ark.

**alarmingrick**

Joey wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Joey wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

I'd like to see the odds of a vet squad getting into that range, in one piece, with a CCS or PCS, also in one piece, vs. the odds of a Medusa getting shots at 48", that will affect the LR.
And don't get me wrong, I run mechvet. It just seems that in my experience I can get a LR with my Manticore easier than with my vets. And when I do get my vets there, I rarely have
a CCS anywhere near them. That said, I'm going to (eventually) run a list with Medusas in place of my Demolishers. That'll be what I eventually decide their value on. Right now I'm just not
willing to write them off as useless.

**Mannahnin**

Joey wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Joey wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.
34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down.

Are you joking? Those aren't the odds. Try doing the math again. And if you're factoring in a cover save against the Medusa you darn well should be against the melta, as that's the turn the opponent's going to pop smoke.

Joey wrote:[And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.

Plus a Chimera to deliver them. Plus they can't start shooting that LR on turn 1.

Actually I think the combination of meltavets plus a Medusa or Manticore seems the way to go. The latter starts threatening the opponent on turn 1, encouraging him to spread out and pop smoke early. The vets have improved odds of popping it mid-game if he does.

Joey wrote:Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Sure, though it can contest one, especially if it's on your side of the table when the game ends. If you can kill it while it's still on your opponent's side of the table it doesn't threaten your objectives or do its main job by delivering a nasty assault unit into your lines.

**Joey**

DarkHound wrote:
Joey wrote:Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.
Actually, a BS4 Meltagunner has a 39% chance of penetrating, with an additional 8% chance to glance. Getting a glance really hurts against AV14 because you don't have the weight of fire to strip it down. Plus those Veterans will need a Chimera, and they'll need to get really close in order to do any damage. Your opponent gets a turn free before needing to pop smoke, and then your Meltaguns probably won't get a hit on the table. Then they'll die because they're out of position, sitting in the face of the opponent's spearhead. That kind of suicide is far less situational than potentially being vulnerable to weapons 48" away.

Glancing on AP1 is good enough for me

Who says vets have to be in chimeras? If a LR is charging your gunline, it'll be in range of 2-3 squads of meltavets.
This all boils down to this:
Is a slightly improved chance of taking out a Land Raider from range worth the trade off in reduced AV and survivability?
In my opinion, no. Demolishers can crack Land Raiders and Terminators, in fact just about anything, while soaking up more firepower than three Medusas (cba to actually do the maths on that one, feel free to correct me).

**Polonius**

The flip side is that even an immobilized land raider on turns 1-2 can delay whatever nastiness is inside.

Waiting until they get within meltagun range means that even if you pop the LR... it did it's job.

(this is why I love the CCS/Valk Combo)

**Joey**

Polonius wrote:The flip side is that even an immobilized land raider on turns 1-2 can delay whatever nastiness is inside.

Waiting until they get within meltagun range means that even if you pop the LR... it did it's job.

(this is why I love the CCS/Valk Combo)

So? There's no point going out and out to pop Land Raiders when their biggest threat is what they're carrying. Given the choice between shooting meltas at Death Company and a Land Raider, I know what I'm going to choose anyway.

**Ailaros**

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

I'm not sure I'm the one thinking off here. In order to have a 68% rate, you need to hit the land raider with 81% of your shots. In order to hit with 81% of your shots, the shot still needs to hit even if you roll a 8 on your scatter die. This means, that, to get this hit rate, the land raider needs to be 10" wide by 10" long.

I may not know the exact dimensions of the land raider, but I can say with certainty that the vehicle is smaller than that.

DarkHound wrote:And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis.

Sure, but there are a lot of weapons in the game that have that range or longer. Plus, most of the things you'd be shooting at themselves have guns that reach that far, and are now guaranteed clear LOS for retaliatory fire...

**Polonius**

umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

A squad of assault termiantors can rip up an IG parking lot if it hits. A squad that has to walk will take quite a while to do so.

**Flavius Infernus**

Ailaros wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

I'm not sure I'm the one thinking off here. In order to have a 68% rate, you need to hit the land raider with 81% of your shots. In order to hit with 81% of your shots, the shot still needs to hit even if you roll a 8 on your scatter die. This means, that, to get this hit rate, the land raider needs to be 10" wide by 10" long.

I may not know the exact dimensions of the land raider, but I can say with certainty that the vehicle is smaller than that.

I haven't sat down to hash out the numbers, but did you take the 33% of "hit" results on the scatter die into account? Just my dead reckoning feels like the template could scatter about 3-4 inches and still have the hole over, so that's up to roughly "7" on the scattering rolls, plus the 1/3 hits comes out around 80% roughly.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis.

Sure, but there are a lot of weapons in the game that have that range or longer. Plus, most of the things you'd be shooting at themselves have guns that reach that far, and are now guaranteed clear LOS for retaliatory fire...

Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

**Ailaros**

Polonius wrote:umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

Then you have to put time into the mix. After all, if you're not blowing up or immobilizing them before they make it to your stuff, then it doesn't matter. If your opponent gets first turn, They move up 12" and pop smoke, then the move 12", and assault ramp assault 8". This means you've got one shot at a smoked target. Medusa's not very likely to pull through in this case. If you get to go first, you get two shots (only one of which against smoke), but the odds still aren't great.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

So what this means is that these targets are either not best handled at range, or they're better handled with other, non-AP1 weapons.

And I know that you think that if a unit is in a transport it is a speed demon, and once it looses it's ride it has all the speed of the US postal service, but even if that land raider gets to mid-field and is immobilized, the guys inside can still make it to your deployment zone the next turn, and the vehicle still has it's weapons that it can shoot.

**DarkHound**

I counted an average of 5, but I must have had a brain fart. That would include going off the tank. A 4 is more appropriate. The total penetration rate is closer to 60% then. Still miles above anything else.