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So they can fire either large template strength 10 AP 2 large blast at 32", or small blast strength 10 AP 1 +1d6 AP. That's just phenominal, especially the small blast one. That must be the highest Armour Penetration value for a ranged weapon in the game? 10+2d6, you'd need a 4 to glance a land raider...woah. Or even half strength you'd need a 9, which isn't impossible.
Downsides are kind of obvious, they're pretty fragile. Not sure if it would be worth +30 points for camo netting but probably not. You'd probably need three of them to really do some damage, and you'd need a mech wall of chimeras/hellhounds to distract enemy AV.
Problem is I only have about 4-5 vehicles available to me to proxy (well 2 leman russes, a demolisher, a chimera, and 1-3 rhinos/predators, depending on what my enemy is using) so that's not really feasable.
Maybe if I had a couple of Leman Russes with some AV 14 to soak up some shots, and Medusas would almost definitely be in cover (firing indirectly to deny enemy cover saves).
I really need the opinion of someone with experience of using these badboys to give some feedback.

They can't pick between the shells. If you upgrade to the melta shot, you lose the large blast option.

The downside is the same as any single shot weapon: chance to miss + chance to make cover save.

Ahhh that makes more sense. Still, Strength 10 ordinance isn't exactly shoddy at penetrating armour.
Cover save can be negated by firing indirectly. You decrease the chance of hitting slightly (by how much depends on how big the enemy vehicle is), but by eliminating the enemy cover save you're improving your chances of damaging it by 50%.

Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Beat me to it.

I've run medusa's, and I love them, I just stopped because their main target, land raiders, are getting rarer.

Also, for only slightly more, you can take a CCS with meltas in a valkyrie. It's more durable, more reliable, and looks cooler.

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Polonius wrote:

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Beat me to it.

I've run medusa's, and I love them, I just stopped because their main target, land raiders, are getting rarer.

Also, for only slightly more, you can take a CCS with meltas in a valkyrie. It's more durable, more reliable, and looks cooler.

So it's 135 points for an open-topped demolisher with 12/10/10 with +12" range...that makes a lot more sense.
Seems that was the "catch" i was looking for.

If you can see a Medusa, as their name implies, you're already dead. Take a Bastion Breacher and the gun will practically never miss. With even the edge of the template hitting a Rhino, the weapon will still penetrate on average. I did the calcs a long time ago, and I believe the accuracy was over 85%. It's got about the same accuracy against larger chassis. It will always hit, it will always penetrate, and it'll wreck them half the time after that.

Don't bother with the Demolisher though. Might as well take a Russ at that point. And don't take any other upgrades either. The 48" range and low profile should keep you safe.

Medusas were a key part of the original "leafblower" list that won 'ard Boyz back in 2009:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/40k-ard-boys-armylist-leafblower.html

Darkwynn took enclosed crew compartment and camo, but his army was mostly static (I'd want to move my medusas around, and that negates the camo) and IIRC he admitted he took enclosed crew because he like the models better.

Maybe with the rise of necrons & quantum shielding, we might see medusas make a bit of a comeback.

Also, terminators, MCs and characters. I personally use the large rounds for taking that kind of thing out. With BS 3 a shot will scatter an average of 3". Nothing get armour saves.

Drawbacks: they are a little fragile, so you need to support them properly.

Joey wrote:So it's 135 points for an open-topped demolisher with 12/10/10 with +12" range...that makes a lot more sense.
Seems that was the "catch" i was looking for.

Right, for only 30 more points, you get a demolisher which comes with MUCH better armor, and can take more firepower options.

Of course, once you get to demolishers...

DarkHound wrote:Don't bother with the Demolisher though. Might as well take a Russ at that point.

Which means that you're looking to have a flimsier version of a vehicle that you should already pass over in favor of a different vehicle.

Of course, I'll reiterate, you circumvent all those problems by just taking the Bastion Breacher upgrade. That makes the platform unique and useful.

DarkHound wrote:That makes the platform unique and useful.

1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

While I agree in the specific (medusas are overkill against rhinos) that's only because medusas are less good than many cheaper options are much better at popping rhinos.

Using a 120 point unit to pop a 35 point rhino is rarely the point. It's using a 120 point unit to dramaticaly reduce a ~200pt unit's threat radius and durability.

Agreed with Ailaros. Sadly I'm finding the single-shot Russes and Artillery less and less useful. And I love my Demolishers....but 165 points for a single shot that only hits about 44 of the time (1/3 chance to hit plus lets say the odds of getting a scatter 2 inches or less to cause real damage). I mean....the S10 AP2 is great.

But that's a hell of an investment for less than a 50% chance to hit something.

Now the multiple-shot ones like Exterminators, Executioners, Hydras, and Manticores (Punishers don't count)....I'm really starting to lean that direction.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:That makes the platform unique and useful.

1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

I think DarkHound already made the point (and I didn't realize this either, not having used medusas) that you don't have to have the hole over. A partial hit is still str5 +2d6 and AP 1. That means an average hit that scatters partly off will still pen AR11 more than half the time--and it's AP1. A demolisher cannon can't really compare to that.

Killing rhinos in the first couple of turns is a really good thing for guard armies to do--regardless of how much those rhinos cost--because of the huge impact early kills on rhinos has on the later game.

Nungunz wrote:Now the multiple-shot ones like Exterminators, Executioners, Hydras, and Manticores (Punishers don't count)....I'm really starting to lean that direction.

Punishers do count. Try them. I like them either in pairs or with HBs. You'll force wound allocation on full MEQs, rip apart small squads, practically ignore cover, and vaporize hordes.

Ailaros wrote:1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

Medusa has about 4" of room to keep even part of the template on, making the accuracy 71.3%. Only 10.8% of that is S5 (the rest automatically penetrates), so 58% of that 10.8 will penetrate. The total chance of hitting and penetrating is 66.8 (it glances a further 1.5%). The stats are pretty much the same all the way up to AV14, trading penetration for accuracy. It'll kill literally any tank in the game half the time from across the board. If that isn't useful, I don't know what is.

In my experience Warhammer 40k is not won by leveling equal points and hoping for a favorable outcome. Warhammer 40k is won by applying 1500 points again 500 and knowing you'll destroy it.

Yes, but saying that medusa are good against rhinos is like saying that lascannons are good against hordes. I mean, just look at it, S9 is guaranteed to wound any horde model on a 2+, and it won't even get an armor save!

What we're talking about here is a consolation prize, not a real perk.

Right, the consolation prize being it kills Rhinos. The perk being it kills Landraiders at a higher rate than anything else in the game.

Agree with Darkhound and Flavius.

DarkHound wrote:Right, the consolation prize being it kills Rhinos. The perk being it kills Landraiders at a higher rate than anything else in the game.

People use Landraiders?

I'm still really not seeing it.

Best case, you get first turn and get to shoot a rhino that you've still got to hit, and still need to roll on the top half of the damage chart. If you go second, though, you've now got to hit, and your opponent just cut that half of a half in half again with smoke. That or your opponent actually saw it as a threat and shot at it. Even a shaken result would be good enough to keep a rhino alive till it dropped its cargo. Seriously, it's 140 points of awful in this role.

It's like saying "well, my opponent only brought land raiders and ironclads, but at least my autocannons can glance a dread to death, isn't that great?"

Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

... and even then, you're talking about that land raider blowing smoke and surviving a turn out in the open and then the next turn assault ramp multi-charging thunder hammer terminators. Medusas just can't kill things reliably FAST enough.

So, really, we're talking about really expensive units with no access to cover, and also aren't transports. That list is pretty darn short.

Oh yes, the Medusa's primary target should be the highest point vehicle on the field. Killing a Medusa before it gets to shoot is a little tough because you can deploy it out of LoS. However, Landraiders aren't the only hard armor in the game. Virtually every Necron vehicle is AV13. Predators and Vindicators are also prime targets that won't want to use Smoke. Any armor that is durable and on the other edge of the board is a prime candidate for the Medusa, and they're not an uncommon feature.

Ailaros wrote:I'm still really not seeing it.

Best case, you get first turn and get to shoot a rhino that you've still got to hit, and still need to roll on the top half of the damage chart. If you go second, though, you've now got to hit, and your opponent just cut that half of a half in half again with smoke. That or your opponent actually saw it as a threat and shot at it. Even a shaken result would be good enough to keep a rhino alive till it dropped its cargo. Seriously, it's 140 points of awful in this role.

It's like saying "well, my opponent only brought land raiders and ironclads, but at least my autocannons can glance a dread to death, isn't that great?"

Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

... and even then, you're talking about that land raider blowing smoke and surviving a turn out in the open and then the next turn assault ramp multi-charging thunder hammer terminators. Medusas just can't kill things reliably FAST enough.

So, really, we're talking about really expensive units with no access to cover, and also aren't transports. That list is pretty darn short.

Why would I be shooting my Medusa at a Rhino? I have plenty of other things to do that with.
I would feel that a Rhino would be lower on the food chain. Meaning I'm shooting ACs and lascannons
at it first. If I shoot at a LR first I'm using a Manticore, or in this case a Medusa, first.

Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference. And I'm not saying you're wrong
for your take. It's just not the only one.

Ailaros wrote:
Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

Or terminators on the ground. Or mega-nobs. Or a whole squad of kans. Or MCs. Or a whole squad of tac marines.

If you're using the the small blast against Rhinos, you immobilize them on a 3+. That's a 2/3 chance to make them mostly useless.

Seriously, meganobz.

I've found the medusa has a wide variety of uses, and is very versatile on the field. Other may have differing opinions.

I would rather have a leman russ demolisher. The better armor is why. Not much can hurt av 14 at range. Theyre the tip of my mechinized spear.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I would rather have a leman russ demolisher. The better armor is why. Not much can hurt av 14 at range. Theyre the tip of my mechinized spear.

Except, Ironically, the vehicle we're discussing.

just to be fair, the demolisher was brought up as a vehicle this was supposed to replace or vice versa and people were then saying you might as well take a LR battle cannon version anyway so I can see a discussion point about this.

Personally I still like the demolisher but it's just me. Shooty armies just don't like the demolisher. Assault armies don't really care about either. You do save 30 points with the medusa though but risk alot more stunned/shakens due to AV 14 vs 12 though higher range! I personally shall try out said medusa in a future game or two to make my own opinions though I currently run the demolisher and I feel that they 2 units would behave very differently. PPL shoot at artillery. They tend to avoid Av14 tanks so more of my vet squads eat it.

At least where I play, there is a lot of ranged AT and long range template weapons to deal with. Medusa's need line of sight. They tend to get off one shot if you go first, none if you go second. Now, if you have multiple threats in your army forcing target selection decisions by your opponent (and if you don't , you're doing it wrong) then they may survive a bit longer. The last time I played someone who ran them, I went after them first because I figured they would be a nearly sure kill. And they were, iirc they went down to one well-planned (read: lucky) Manticore shot. They never fired.

IMHO, Chimera platforms need to be on the move or hiding. I use the Chimera itself, Hellhound variants, and the Manticore. All my other tanks are Russ variants.

On a side note, interesting post about the much maligned Punisher. I play a league game against 'Nids in a couple of weeks. I might consider putting the punisher cannon barrel on my demolishers... Probably material for a different thread.

BB

Medusae are very cool, the problem is that A) they're open topped, B) they're one weapon-destroyed away from being a self-propelled heavy flamer, and C) they require LOS so they're more vulnerable and suffer heavily from immobilized results.

They're indirectly competing with Hydras and directly competing with Manticores, which are not open-topped, don't suffer from an immobilized result, can fire indirectly and at longer range, and are far less vulnerable.

alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).