Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ailaros wrote:

Polonius wrote:umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

Then you have to put time into the mix. After all, if you're not blowing up or immobilizing them before they make it to your stuff, then it doesn't matter. If your opponent gets first turn, They move up 12" and pop smoke, then the move 12", and assault ramp assault 8". This means you've got one shot at a smoked target. Medusa's not very likely to pull through in this case. If you get to go first, you get two shots (only one of which against smoke), but the odds still aren't great.

9", or ~9.5" with terminator bases. You can easily buy another turn by not deploying on the DZ line. That means you've got one shot at a smoked target, one shot at a non-smoked target, or one at a smoked and two at a non-smoked if you get first turn. The ideal situation is to pop the thing while it's still sitting in his own DZ. And the best weapon for that is the Medusa.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

So what this means is that these targets are either not best handled at range, or they're better handled with other, non-AP1 weapons.

What? Part of the point of this discussion is the recognition that a Medusa gives you uniquely high odds of stopping these kind of targets from across the table. Anything else with the range doesn't get 2d6 & AP1.

Ailaros wrote:And I know that you think that if a unit is in a transport it is a speed demon, and once it looses it's ride it has all the speed of the US postal service, but even if that land raider gets to mid-field and is immobilized, the guys inside can still make it to your deployment zone the next turn, and the vehicle still has it's weapons that it can shoot.

The point of shooting a transport is to slow down the contents. The earlier you stop it the better it is for you, and the longer it takes the embarked unit to get close to you and do damage. The more transports you stop, the more you break up your opponent's advance, and the more his units straggle into your lines in waves. If they straggle into your lines in waves you get to focus your close-range guns on fewer targets at a time- local superiority of force, while his units stuck at the back are too far away to hurt you.

I think a lot of people have the "it's big, bring it down!" syndrome.
If you go second, blowing up the Land Raider will do nothing whatsoever to help you, since the units inside will be in assault distance (12" ) anyway.
Blowing up a Land Raider when it's still in enemy deployment is helpful I suppose, but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it. Those small blast will only get one at a time and what's inside could well be getting a 3+ invulnerable against it, and almost definitely a 4+ cover. Having three Demolishers means any untransported enemy heavy infantry will be killed like dogs.
I'd rather safely and securely notch up kills on the enemy's rhinos/razors and predators, as well as any infantry that aren't in transports.
Add to that the fact that a gunline with 3-4 AV14s is nigh-on impenetrable. Those Leman Russes will be around most of the game, those open-tropped AV12s may well not make it past turn 1. If your enemy has bought Devestators and you've gone second, you can kiss them goodbye.

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

Does your opponant not deploy BS4 Lascannons? Something with that armour value versus its power will draw all the enemy's Anti-Tank until it's dead. Or were you planning on taking 3 of them, and forgoing Leman Russes alltogether?

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

Does your opponant not deploy BS4 Lascannons? Something with that armour value versus its power will draw all the enemy's Anti-Tank until it's dead. Or were you planning on taking 3 of them, and forgoing Leman Russes alltogether?

I was actually going to go something like:
2 Medusa
2 Hydra

and either
1 Manticore
or
2 Demolishers

Actually, you can take 3 of them and still take 5 or 6 Russes. Frankly, you don't need more than one.

They are pretty easy to hide. Even the GW Ork Barricades will obscure the chassis. You can cover the gun with a Leman Russ. With proper deployment, the only thing that can see it is the target. That target probably won't be shooting back, so you're safe.

Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Taking a medusa is a low cost, high reward unit. It's not an auto-include, and great lists can be built without it. But it's a very solid choice against a very common target: AV12+.

Polonius wrote:Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Yes. Not that winning a tournament is proof of anything. But some of the assertions made do demonstrate to me why most of the regular tournament winners I know don't bother trying to explain how online.

Polonius wrote:Taking a medusa is a low cost, high reward unit. It's not an auto-include, and great lists can be built without it. But it's a very solid choice against a very common target: AV12+.

Yep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:If you go second, blowing up the Land Raider will do nothing whatsoever to help you, since the units inside will be in assault distance (12" ) anyway.

Not true. Are you interested in the explanation of why? I gave a general description of the reason before you posted this.

Mannahnin wrote:

Polonius wrote:Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Yes. Not that winning a tournament is proof of anything. But some of the assertions made do demonstrate to me why most of the regular tournament winners I know don't bother trying to explain how online.

Lol, good point. Though, "learn your army, know the other armies, and play the missions" are simple to say, and hard to implement. Because they require effort, not debate.

lots lots of playtesting. Frankly that to me is the fun of the game. If I could win a tournament just by debating on dakka, I'd be dismayed at how easy game became lol

sudojoe wrote:lots lots of playtesting. Frankly that to me is the fun of the game. If I could win a tournament just by debating on dakka, I'd be dismayed at how easy game became lol

Especially when they play completely different opponants to you. I have played one opponant, a lot, I know what works against it and what doesn't. Being told that something is effective in tournies is irrelavent unless you plan on exclusively playing in tournaments, which is silly.

Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

I've always wanted to build a catachan army with Three Medusas, six sentinels, a bunch of lascannon heavy weapons teams and just a wall of catachans. Something seems cool about that.

Anyway, I've always thought medusas were a cool part of the game. They really make you think tactically, from both player's point of view.

Mannahnin wrote:Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.
For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

Joey wrote:Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.
For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

Actually, a good poster provides all of the relevant information in a question he asks.

And doesn't insult people trying to help him.

And doesn't ask a question, when he only plays against one guy, and already "knows what works against him."

So, sorry if we don't meet your standards, but I'd rather not waste more time when you clearly aren't actually looking for feedback.

I think Joey's example is the opposite of what his first sentence means. I can't really tell though.

Seems like this has got a little heated. I would rather take a Manticore over a Medusa. The Manticore is indirect and S10 with the large blast plus d3 for four rounds of shooting. To be honest I rarely ever see any Medusas.

DarkHound wrote:I think Joey's example is the opposite of what his first sentence means. I can't really tell though.

No, because a good poster would break down how a medusa performs against all the different armies and phases in which BS4 Autocannons shoot at you.

In Sanskrit.

Joey wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.

Yep. There's been quite a bit of it in this thread.

Joey wrote:For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

That's not an accurate statement. Most shooty armies have lots of missile launchers and often some lascannons as well. You can protect your Medusa by giving it cover (which you can enhance with camo nets), by limiting the number of units which can get LOS & range to it, ways to do both of which have been described in the thread, and by targeting the units which can get range and LOS to it with your own weapons. Are you guaranteed to be able to protect it? No, of course not. There are few guarantees in the game.

Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

-666- wrote:Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

You can't hit what you can't see.

If even you can see it, if it's behind a chimera, you'll only hit what you can see 50% of the time.

It's harder than you think without a dedicated effort.

Polonius wrote:

-666- wrote:Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

You can't hit what you can't see.

If even you can see it, if it's behind a chimera, you'll only hit what you can see 50% of the time.

It's harder than you think without a dedicated effort.

BS4 lascannon:
.66 hit
so 0.11 glance, 1/3=0.03 chance(0.04 TW)
0.44 penetrate, of which 2/3 destroy it or its weapon (which is just as bad)=0.3. Twin-linked makes this 0.4.
Accounting for cover saves means half of the time it will take 3 lascannons to destroy a Madusa. In fact with the ease of damaging it, it's unlikely it'd be able to get any shots off at all unless you went first.

Or you blocked LOS to it from the start, using terrain and/or other models.

Then the turn after after you've moved it to fire?
Either way it's still a one-shot weapon.

Depends on what else your opponent has available to shoot it with. The corollary to you saying your opponent will treat it as a high-value target is that you will protect it and limit the weapons which have angles on it; part of that by obstructing LOS, and part of it by targeting (with your other units) the stuff that has the angles to shoot it.

I'm sure a squad of Long Fangs could put a hit on it if they've got L0S. Mathammer is fine but you should multiply the odds by the number of shots its likeky to draw.

Like I said no one I play ever takes the Medusa as the Manticore is a better choice—indirect and S10 d3 shots is better. That's how I see it based upon my experience versus Imperial Guard. I'd much rather see a Medusa than a Manticore any game.

Long ranged weapons like Long Fangs are stationary. If you can block their LoS once (and you can), you can block it all game long.

Usually there are two to three squads of Long Fangs though.

-666- wrote:Usually there are two to three squads of Long Fangs though.

And if all 2-3 are shooting at my Medusa, I guess the rest of my army is going to be happy.

It's easy for a medusa or manticore to gain a 4+ cover save from Chimera, especially against static units like long fangs. If the medusa in cover is being shot other AV12 units out in the open are not being shot at. The big problem with the medusas are too fragile argument is manticores are even more feared by most armies, and IG players often manage to keep them alive for more than 1 turn.

If a medusa blows up a land raider it's made it's points back and then some. After a land raider explodes there is usually additional targets with an AV to shoot at.

Blowing up a land raider is still important if IG goes 2nd. After 1 movement phase it's still at least 12" from your lines. If it gets cratered the unit inside is now in difficult terrain and won't make a charge next turn. Furthermore the squads inside are going to start getting pounded by the rest of the IG army.

The problem with medusas is they compete with manticores, which are more versatile. I think it has real potential in high point games as a combo with 2 manticores in each corner and a medusae near the center of the line.