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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 21:43:40
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Shepherd
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DK wrote:lol, if the berserkers get the charge, and if CF didnt go first, btw 10 purifires with halberds is 260pts. so thats 20 attacks before the berserks, and with hammerhand thats 6-8 berserks dead at 6I.
now you add an inqu with psyctrofic nades, its downhill from there, also CF should kill 1-2...so looking in all 7-10...again, stay ranged and pray then ask for the Emperors protection
Why wouldn't cf go first? It goes before blows are struck. Thought you played gk. lol Haven't we learned units in vaccum is useless? Cause last I checked that same purifer squad dies to oblits plasma, defilers canon etc. Every unit has a counter. It's the overall strategy and execution.
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The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 21:47:02
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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thats why I said 1-2 dependent on if you have the Emperors blessing on ur dice
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For the Emperor, our Primark, Death to the UnClean
Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex
"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us his greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day."
– address to enemy forces in Victory Bay |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 21:48:05
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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DK wrote:thats why I said 1-2 dependent on if you have the Emperors blessing on ur dice
1.155 wounds on average against a 10 man Khorne Squad
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 21:48:22
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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I said if CF didnt go first because I used hammerhand as the exp, since you cant cast 2 abilites in a turn without a IDC Automatically Appended Next Post: waityour math is wrong, cf should kill 1.15 not wound...since in a 10man team 5 should take wounds
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/04 21:50:23
For the Emperor, our Primark, Death to the UnClean
Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex
"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us his greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day."
– address to enemy forces in Victory Bay |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 21:53:49
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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DK wrote:I said if CF didnt go first because I used hammerhand as the exp, since you cant cast 2 abilites in a turn without a IDC
Automatically Appended Next Post:
waityour math is wrong, cf should kill 1.15 not wound...since in a 10man team 5 should take wounds
My math isn't wrong, but I was unclear. 1.15 unsaved wounds.
.5*.7*.33 = .1155 per model to sustain an unsaved wound
Or .5*.7 = .35 per model to sustain a wound before saves are taken
The .7 is the chance for a Purifier Squad to pass a Psychic test without sustaining a Perils of the Warp. So that's an average number of unsaved wounds as opposed to the number of wounds that CF would inflict.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 22:46:21
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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ok wordding had me messed up
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For the Emperor, our Primark, Death to the UnClean
Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex
"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us his greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day."
– address to enemy forces in Victory Bay |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:13:27
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:19:31
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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Mannahnin wrote:The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
:cough:Thousand Sons:cough:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:21:36
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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What he said, but you might want to pray to the Emperor too, seems Chaos gods dont like to help there toys much.
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For the Emperor, our Primark, Death to the UnClean
Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex
"Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us his greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the First Kronus Regiment, and today is our Victory Day."
– address to enemy forces in Victory Bay |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:24:02
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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chaos0xomega wrote:Mannahnin wrote:The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
:cough:Thousand Sons:cough:
They just cost too much; though maybe could work with Wind on the Sorcerer. But if you're doing that I think small noise marine squads with a champion with Doom Siren are cheaper and more efficient.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:37:16
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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Mannahnin wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Mannahnin wrote:The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
:cough:Thousand Sons:cough:
They just cost too much; though maybe could work with Wind on the Sorcerer. But if you're doing that I think small noise marine squads with a champion with Doom Siren are cheaper and more efficient.
The problem is that the noise marine squads are pretty much dead if they get in combat, the Thousand Sons are (expensive) tarpit units. Your opponent will think twice about assaulting them. Also, your opponent will have to eat more shooting from them, as they can reach out and touch someone at 24" even on the move. Being able to hit your opponent a turn earlier w/ single shots means you should wipe the unit on your rapid fire turn, unless of course they are Draigowing... in which case IIRC, a 10 man of 1k Sons is cheaper than a 5 man Pallie squad, and should successfully tie them up for a couple turns... Draigowing armies are low model count, your opponent will usually have fewer units than you. Tie up a bunch of them for a bit and focus on one unit at a time to destroy the army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:53:58
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Mannahnin wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Mannahnin wrote:The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
:cough:Thousand Sons:cough:
They just cost too much; though maybe could work with Wind on the Sorcerer. But if you're doing that I think small noise marine squads with a champion with Doom Siren are cheaper and more efficient.
I don't really understand how you can get much more efficient than AP 3 Bolters for 23 points, let alone the fact that they have a 4+ invul
I cannot even sit here and imagine into existence a better counter to Purifier Squads, I really can't.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/04 23:59:20
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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TedNugent wrote:Mannahnin wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Mannahnin wrote:The purifiers are comparable in cost to the berserkers, but beat them in HtH and shooting. On the plus side the zerks are scoring, but that's not much consolation when you're dead or not contibuting to the battle.
Chaos needs to shoot GK to death, for the most part. Take oblits and chosen for lots of plasma/melta goodness. Use CSMs rather than Zerks or Plagues for your troops, so you have more cheap bodies rapid firing at their pricier strikes or purifiers. Small units of PMs are also okay with double plasma or double melta. Take Lash to move his crap around and clump it up for oblit plasma love. Use Oblits & Havocs with missiles or Autolas Preds to shoot their dreadnoughts to death, and/or deep-striking terminators with combi-meltas.
:cough:Thousand Sons:cough:
They just cost too much; though maybe could work with Wind on the Sorcerer. But if you're doing that I think small noise marine squads with a champion with Doom Siren are cheaper and more efficient.
I don't really understand how you can get much more efficient than AP 3 Bolters for 23 points, let alone the fact that they have a 4+ invul
I cannot even sit here and imagine into existence a better counter to Purifier Squads, I really can't.
Do they have relentless? Cause if not then the purifiers are just going to shoot them alot.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 00:08:31
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Yes, they have Relentless.
Ted, I would agree with you, except for the mandatory 70pt (or more, depending on power chosen) aspiring sorcerer you're forced to take. A five man squad with only four actual T-Sons weighs in at a minimum of 152pts. More if you want a power other than Doom Bolt.
5 Noise Marines with Doom Siren Champ are 130, and the Doom Siren kills Purifiers on a 3+, though you do have to get close.
The problem with both is that they die just as fast to storm bolter/S5 storm bolter/Psycannon shots as any other marine, but cost as much or more than the Purifiers on average. Hence my preference for the CSMs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/05 00:09:58
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 02:42:42
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Mannahnin wrote:Yes, they have Relentless.
Ted, I would agree with you, except for the mandatory 70pt (or more, depending on power chosen) aspiring sorcerer you're forced to take. A five man squad with only four actual T-Sons weighs in at a minimum of 152pts. More if you want a power other than Doom Bolt.
5 Noise Marines with Doom Siren Champ are 130, and the Doom Siren kills Purifiers on a 3+, though you do have to get close.
The problem with both is that they die just as fast to storm bolter/S5 storm bolter/Psycannon shots as any other marine, but cost as much or more than the Purifiers on average. Hence my preference for the CSMs.
If you get close enough to use a Template against Purifiers with no invulnerable save, aren't you already dead?
Yeah, the TS are expensive initially, but that cost is driven down as you purchase more of them. If you purchased 20 of them and Wind of Chaos, they would work out to 26 pts a model. Why not? They're Fearless, so they're not going to run off the board, and their shooting alone could stop a Purifier Squad dead in its tracks at 12". It's not like you're going to run out of reasons to want AP3 shooting against GKs.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 02:50:49
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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For your first question, that's what Rhinos are for.
For your second, I can see your point. IMO the T-Sons are too expensive for general applicability. They might be worthwhile against GK specifically. Can you propose a viable general-purpose list which can take on other armies as well as GKs, using T-Sons?
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 03:36:38
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Draigo wrote:Haven't we learned units in vaccum is useless? Cause last I checked that same purifer squad dies to oblits plasma, defilers canon etc. Every unit has a counter. It's the overall strategy and execution.
That's called a truism.
Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters and CSM with Meltaguns are the best things I can think to take against GK. But even spamming Plas Chosen and Oblits CSM have an uphill battle. Plus that army would be too specific to take to a tourney.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 03:49:59
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Thousand sons are horrible. I can't believe anyone is even saying they are worth fielding. AP3 bolter? Its still a freaking bolter. It isn't like they can take 2 plasma rifles or meltaguns.
They have no options and only a single attack in close combat. So that AP3 bolter is worthless there.
And that 4+ invulnerable might be better than nothing against power weapons, but in practical use its pretty worthless being worse than the standard 3+ save all marines get. Oh and what save does every unit in cover get in 5th edition? Oh yeah a 4+ invul.
Noise marines will beat TS in close combat, and noise marines are the second worst choice in the CSM dex. Only losing out there to 1ksons. You are better off with regular CSM. And much better off with the only two real choices, plagues and berzerkers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 04:41:56
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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If I'm playing Grey Knights, there is no CSM troops choice I'd want more than Thousand Sons. Sorry, but the AP3 bolter that fires 24" on the move is a godsend against Grey Knights, and that 4+ invul is worth its weight in gold, because guess what? In combat, all other troops choices in that book will fold like a house of cards. Khorne Berzerkers aren't going to have a chance to attack in any meaningful capacity and Plague Marines aren't going to be getting their save OR feel no pain, and their Toughness 5 isn't going to do anything to make them survivable enough to hold. If you want to try to take on Grey Knights with plasma guns and melta weapons, be my guest. My Thousand Sons will still be standing there when the remainder of the squad I just tried to shoot up charges in and destroys your unit.
Also, contrary to popular belief, not every unit in cover gets a 4+ cover save. Read your book again, standing in a bunch of shrubs or behind some razor wire only gets you a 5+. The cover rules are the most misunderstood and over-abused rules in all of 5th edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 04:51:06
Subject: Re:Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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Ok sorry i haven't been posting for ages, i posted this before i went to sleep and i've been at school all day.
You guys asked for lists specifcally sorry.
Ok so my first list was
Keep in mind this list had to vs Tyranids aswell.
Kharn
10 Plague Marines
2 Meltas
Champ
Power Fist
Combi-Flamer
Chaos Terminator Lord
Khorn
Daemon Weapon
10 Plague Marines
2 Meltas
Champ
Power Fist
Combi-Flamer
10 Noise Marines
10 Sonic Blasters
Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer
Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer
Defiler
Additional Close Comabt Arms
5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons
5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons
He had . . if I recall correctly
Draigo
5 Paladin
2 Halberds
Stave
Psycannon
banner
5 Paladin
2 Halberds
Stave
Psycannon
banner
10 grey knights
2 Halberds
stave
Psycannon
10 grey knights
2 Halberds
stave
Psycannon
2 dreads with assault cannons and psy-bolt ammo
something like that.
The second list i tried had
Abaddon
10 Plague Marines
2 Flamers
10 Plague Marines
Melta
Flamer
Rhino
10 Plague Marines
Melta
Flamer
Rhino
6 Terminators
Pair Lightning Claws
Power Fist/Reaper Auto Cannon
Dreadnought
Dread Weapons
Heavy Flamer
Defiler
Additional close combat weapons
5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons
He Had . . . If i Recall correctly
Dragio
10 terminators
all halberds
pysycannon
Dreadknight
psylencer
psy-flamer thing
drednought
assault cannon
psy-bolt ammo
10 grey knights
all halberds
pyscannon
10 grey knights
all halberds
pyscannon
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 05:09:25
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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chaos0xomega wrote:Also, contrary to popular belief, not every unit in cover gets a 4+ cover save. Read your book again, standing in a bunch of shrubs or behind some razor wire only gets you a 5+. The cover rules are the most misunderstood and over-abused rules in all of 5th edition.
All ruins and area terrain of any variety grants a 4+. Plus, if half your squad is behind a transport (meaning everyone who doesn't have a special weapon), the whole squad gets a 4+. You are always able to wrap your units around a Rhino for a 4+ save. All mech always have a 4+ save basically no matter what.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 05:25:46
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Kevlar wrote:Thousand sons are horrible. I can't believe anyone is even saying they are worth fielding. AP3 bolter? Its still a freaking bolter. It isn't like they can take 2 plasma rifles or meltaguns.
They have no options and only a single attack in close combat. So that AP3 bolter is worthless there.
Nonsense. First of all,
You can field 12 TS and a Sorceror w/ Doombolt for the same cost as 2 squads of 10 CSM with 4 Plasma Guns. They each deal just under 4 casualties average at 24 inches against MEQs, but at 18", the TS kill an extra Space Marine. At 12", the CSM deal 8 casualties and the TS deal 9. In other words, in ranged combat against MEQs the TS are superior cost-for-cost.
Assuming a 10 man unit of Purifiers met them In close quarters, the CSM sustain 8.3 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, losing combat by a deficit of 7 wounds and almost certainly failing leadership and breaking combat. The TS sustain 4.5 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, then sustain 1 additional Fearless casualty. The difference is that in the case of the TS, they do not run after the first turn of close combat like CSM usually would against Purifiers, hence the point about them being a potential tarpit against Purifiers.
Kevlar wrote:
And that 4+ invulnerable might be better than nothing against power weapons, but in practical use its pretty worthless being worse than the standard 3+ save all marines get. Oh and what save does every unit in cover get in 5th edition? Oh yeah a 4+ invul.
Read GK Codex. Notice dearth of AP3. Read GK Codex again, more carefully. Notice the fact that -every- -single- unit in the codex is equipped with Power Weapons.
Kevlar wrote:
Noise marines will beat TS in close combat, and noise marines are the second worst choice in the CSM dex. Only losing out there to 1ksons. You are better off with regular CSM. And much better off with the only two real choices, plagues and berzerkers.
Noise Marines would get shredded in CC by Purifiers. A 15 man squad would sustain 7.5 casualties before retaliating with 1.75 wounds and then sustaining 1.9 Fearless deaths. That's 63% of the unit killed. By contrast I had 42% of the TS unit killed in one round of combat. The difference is only .75 wounds dealt in CC, for the loss of a substantial amount of ranged firepower compared to TS.
Without taking into consideration the Noise Marine template. But frankly I don't see the Noise Marine template dealing anywhere near as many casualties as TS shooting.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 05:59:18
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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Ted, since you seem to be one with the mathhammer, can you calculate all that out to account for shooting? I.E. assuming the Thousand Sons/Noise Marine unit gets to pounce first and has a turn of shooting at rapid fire range against the purifiers before being fired at/assaulted in kind.My guess is that the Thousand Sons beat the Noise Marine unit hands down, and maybe even beat the remnant of the Purifier squad in cc? We'll give the Noise Marines the benefit of the doubt and ignore the fact that the Thousand Sons get to pump out a round of shots at 24" the turn prior.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 06:20:28
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver
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I think the issue isnt that grey knights are, or arent overpowered. Which is a discussion for another thread (has anyone made a thread about it yet?)
Its that the chaos book is really bad, and really old. I mean, assuming both players took lists that maxed out their books, and are of roughly even skill levels, then the gk book wins most of the time, sure. But, thats also true with chaos vs dark eldar, guard, wolves, blood angels,necrons, and regular marines.
4th edition, towards the end, it was orks, eldar, nids, chaos, and vanilla marines that ran everything, this edition is back to being imperial heavy.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBeivizzsPc |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 07:37:55
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Dakka Veteran
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scuddman wrote:Hmm, I'm not sure how a fresh berserker squad would be able to shoot pistols and charge purifiers without a landraider or something. Seriously, 4 psycannons and stormbolters is way shootier than berserkers, and you forgot to include the purifier power.
Actually, I assumed Hammerhand for purifiers, as it's generally better against MEQ, because of all the power weapons.
If Cleansing flame goes off, you get 1.67 kills from it (though it's only 83% chance, so real number should be 1.38). You lose 1 kill from the halberds and 0.333 kills from psycannon dudes (though they should be dead before they can hit back at this point), meaning that the difference isn't that big. But in this case, Cleansing flame would have been better choice, as it would basically have meant one less berzerker hitting back.
scuddman wrote:
If the purifiers shoot first then charge, they'll wipe out the berserkers with no casulaties no problem. 4 psycannons, purifier power, and halberds is just too much.
The berserkers can't do it alone. But hey, let's go back to that thread where I said khorne chaos marines are good because they're versailte and also shooty. Since the berserkers don't win this in hth, doesn't seem so crazy now, does it?
I agree, if purifiers get charge, Berzerkers are totally hosed. All dead for no losses. If Berzerkers get charge, purifiers lose with berzerkers around half strength (4-5 models).
scuddman wrote:Where did you get 3 from shooting? The psycannons alone do more than that. You forget to calculate rending?
Yeah, looks like Heresy combat calculator has bug with rending with multiple attacker groups. But psycannons don't do more than that if you're planning on assaulting:
Correct numbers are: 12 S5 SB shots kill 1.78 Berzerkers. 8 psycannon shots (assault 2) kill 2 berzerkers, (1.19 normal unsaved wounds, 0.89 from rending). So 4 dead berzerkers from shooting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 07:46:01
Subject: Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Krazed Killa Kan
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chaos0xomega wrote:Ted, since you seem to be one with the mathhammer, can you calculate all that out to account for shooting? I.E. assuming the Thousand Sons/Noise Marine unit gets to pounce first and has a turn of shooting at rapid fire range against the purifiers before being fired at/assaulted in kind.My guess is that the Thousand Sons beat the Noise Marine unit hands down, and maybe even beat the remnant of the Purifier squad in cc? We'll give the Noise Marines the benefit of the doubt and ignore the fact that the Thousand Sons get to pump out a round of shots at 24" the turn prior.
I don't see that scenario as being super plausible because the Purifiers would probably get the first round of shooting since equal range + Assault weapons but you asked for the results
Purifiers dead to a man for a cost of 2.6 models in a single game turn
Noise Marines wiped out to a man in 2nd round of CC for the cost of ~6 Purifiers
So, assuming Noise Marines use their Bolt Pistols and assault the Purifiers at 12 inches after shooting, and also using their Doom Siren at 6 inches, they are wiped out to a man for the cost of 7.5 Purifiers.
So, there you have it. If you end up at 12 inches and for some reason (?) the Purifiers cannot shoot you, the Thousand Sons come out the best, beating the Purifiers to a man. Noise Marines lose on average, but it seems like at 12 inches against Purifiers they are better off using their pistols and assaulting rather than using their boltguns.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 07:50:01
Subject: Re:Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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This is a thread i started on Beating Grey Knights With Chaos Space Marines, not lets do Mathhammer on everything to say how things "should" turn out. Its sort of of topic because there has been only a few ideas for combating them, every one else is arguing about who is better
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 08:30:57
Subject: Re:Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You need to ask for the blessing of the blood god... I played GK recently and my squad of bezerkers were charged by interceptors and corteaz squad, but my powerfist champion fought them off by himself and went on to smack a psyfleman dread in the face, explode a pysbolterback and claim an objective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 10:52:38
Subject: Re:Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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I wish the original poster would post his army list up .....
lets assume that its a 1500 point game...
Our original poster takes say
Abaddon
8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
kharn + 9 bezekers including champion with power fist
Obliterator x 2
Obliterator x 2
total = 1502
How can this beat 1500 points of grey knights ? or what is the opponent taking that can table this so easily ?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/05 11:15:07
Subject: Re:Beating Grey Knights with Chaos Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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sumi808 wrote:I wish the original poster would post his army list up .....
lets assume that its a 1500 point game...
Our original poster takes say
Abaddon
8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
kharn + 9 bezekers including champion with power fist
Obliterator x 2
Obliterator x 2
total = 1502
How can this beat 1500 points of grey knights ? or what is the opponent taking that can table this so easily ?
It can't. Because the list is horrible. Throw out Abaddon, reduce the plaquemarine squads to 5 marines each. They need neither champions nor powerfists nor personal icons.
What they do need is a Rhino, preferably with an extra weapon ( havoc launcher or combiweapon if possible). Kharn + Berserkers without a vehicle is fail. Since the only good vehicle for
Berserkers is a landraider we better take some extra troopchoices with meltas in rhinos. An extra Obliterator squad (2xOblits) makes Tzeentch happy.
You want three things, longrange firepower, tanks ( rhinos ) and meltas ( from your troopchoices ). All other considerations are secondary.
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