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My friend has now delcared that his going to play Grey Knights and put away his other armies for a while. I have versed his Grey Knights twice and been absolutey flogged. I have tried fielding Plague Marines, Kharn The Betrayer, Chaos Lord with a Blood Feeder, Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters, Dreadnoughts, Havoc squads with Auto Cannons, Defilers, Terminators, Predator with all Las Cannons and even Abaddon The Dispoiler who managed to kill himself without inflicting a hit !!!

They are so over powered, those bloody Dreadknights dish out like 20 shots and his whole army had those dam Halberds so there dam initive 6 and they all have power weapons that can kill outright. And all the fancy Psycic Powers, that bloody Dragio fellla smashed my Defiler with his strength 10 things. He used Paladins in the first match and its impossilbe to kill them. And then theres the Psy-Bolt ammon on every things and the 150 shots a turn from his army its just wrong. And Dreadknights teleporting 30" and the blasting the hell out of my Terminators. His Terminators has grenades to whats with that.

How the hell to you beat these guys its seems almost impossilbe, what are there weaknesses other than 'There Expensive', how do i beat them or at least make it a close game?? Please tell me your secretes

UPDATE :

Ok sorry i haven't been posting for ages, i posted this before i went to sleep and i've been at school all day.

You guys asked for lists specifcally sorry.

Ok so my first list was
Keep in mind this list had to vs Tyranids aswell.

Kharn

10 Plague Marines
2 Meltas
Champ
Power Fist
Combi-Flamer

Chaos Terminator Lord
Khorn
Daemon Weapon

10 Plague Marines
2 Meltas
Champ
Power Fist
Combi-Flamer

10 Noise Marines
10 Sonic Blasters

Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer

Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
Heavy Flamer

Defiler
Additional Close Comabt Arms

5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons

5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons

He had . . if I recall correctly

Draigo

5 Paladin
2 Halberds
Stave
Psycannon
banner

5 Paladin
2 Halberds
Stave
Psycannon
banner

10 grey knights
2 Halberds
stave
Psycannon

10 grey knights
2 Halberds
stave
Psycannon

2 dreads with assault cannons and psy-bolt ammo

something like that.

The second list i tried had

Abaddon

10 Plague Marines
2 Flamers

10 Plague Marines
Melta
Flamer
Rhino

10 Plague Marines
Melta
Flamer
Rhino

6 Terminators
Pair Lightning Claws
Power Fist/Reaper Auto Cannon

Dreadnought
Dread Weapons
Heavy Flamer

Defiler
Additional close combat weapons

5 Havocs
4 Auto Cannons

He Had . . . If i Recall correctly

Dragio

10 terminators
all halberds
pysycannon

Dreadknight
psylencer
psy-flamer thing

drednought
assault cannon
psy-bolt ammo

10 grey knights
all halberds
pyscannon

10 grey knights
all halberds
pyscannon

Vindicators

Marshall Ragnar wrote:Vindicators

Your Point Vindicator + Dreadknight = Dreadknight

Any other ideas ?? if they have worked for you please tell me how ???

If you post a list, then maybe we can help.

Vindicator > Paladins, Ragnar does have a point.

We could help if we knew more precisely what the two armies consist of. Right now, it sounds like he's fielding Dreadknight squadrons with 5000 points of Paladins.

Generally speaking, yes, his models are expensive. Each antitank shot (low AP) is going to count. Paladins fear Demolisher cannons. I guess Obliterators can also do nasty things to them.
If he's going for the Paladeathstar, you should just dodge it and pick off the other elements of his army.
Dreadknights' shooting is frankly underwhelming, nothing you should be concerned about.

You dont beat them you just keep losing to them and telling your friend that he must be such a good player to be winning with the GK all the time! Add as much sarcasm as you can possibly field without getting nerd raged from him =]

Chaos, Eldar and Tau players when losing still outplay GK players =]

Not helping Milisim, but I guess that would be asking too much from you. Yeah, let's be bitter and not actually think about what we could do about that.

If you think you're outplaying somebody when you're losing, I don't know how you expect to win or improve.

The problem is not the Grey Knights dex but the utter horribleness that is the Chaos dex.
If you want to have a chance at beating GKs then you better stick with the few things that work.
I suggest:

cheap HQ: Lord with combimelter, don't even think about princes or sorcerers or stuff, you wan't it cheap and disposable
troops: CSM with champion, melter, combimelter in a Rhino. The Rhino gets an extra weapon if the points are avaiable ( havoc launcher or combiweapon for 1+1 )
heavy support: 3x2 Oblits or 3 Autolaspreds

CSM are upgraded to Plaque marines if points are avaiable. Termies and Chosen if you have the points left but they aren't mandatory. Your aim is maximum mech and melta saturation.
Don't try to counter your opponent's deathstar ( if he uses Paladins ) with your own. You simply don't have the tools for such an approach ( no Thunderhammer termies, no chance ).
By keeping it cheap, mobile and disposable you will hopefully have a chance of winning by capturing objectives.
Still, unless your opponent has a realy bad GK list then your chances to win aren't that great.

In my opinion Grey Knights are not so efficient against armors 2+, and against huge vehicles at long range, like land raiders.

So, I face grey knights with 9 obliterators and 1 land raider(taken as a transport), and I shoot tho his transports, cause for a full2+ army, a rifledred is not a big menace.

If you break his mobility, you won the match, cause the GK could not make you serious damages, unless in close combat, but before to get into a CC, e takes 2 or 3 CSM firing turns.

If enemy transports(razorbacks or rhinos) are far, you shot'em with lascannons, if they're in 24" range, you shot'em with multymelta, for the AP1 that gives you a +1 bonus to damage vehicles extremely good against vehicles! Obliterators forever! XD

Don't leave at home Daemon Princes, if the lash of submission is casted on a unit the plasma cannons of the obliterators kills everything! However, daemon princes are not so easy to kill, and they can easily wipe out a 5 men PAGK unit.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:n Abaddon The Dispoiler who managed to kill himself without inflicting a hit !!!

They are so over powered, those bloody Dreadknights dish out like 20 shots and his whole army had those dam Halberds so there dam initive 6 and they all have power weapons that can kill outright. And all the fancy Psycic Powers, that bloody Dragio fellla smashed my Defiler with his strength 10 things. He used Paladins in the first match and its impossilbe to kill them. And then theres the Psy-Bolt ammon on every things and the 150 shots a turn from his army its just wrong. And Dreadknights teleporting 30" and the blasting the hell out of my Terminators. His Terminators has grenades to whats with that.

How the hell to you beat these guys its seems almost impossilbe, what are there weaknesses other than 'There Expensive', how do i beat them or at least make it a close game?? Please tell me your secretes

*sigh* The likelihood of Abaddon "actually" killing himself without hitting anything is precisely one in every 1296 games. Already you're exaggerating.

Dreadknights cannot fire 20 times, your opponent is cheating.

Fielding an entire army of halberds is expensive and counter productive. You should be thankful he is doing something so stupid.

GK terminators have grenades because they dont have stormshields.

Draigo cannot use strength 10 against defilers (correct if wrong?) as it is only STR10 against psykers. A defiler is a vehicle.

Ignoring all of these problems...it seems like your approaching it wrong. If I were up against chaos, I would hate to see Obliterators, as I have nothing to touch them with early game other than teleporter troops who wont kill them easily anyway. I dont want to risk sending a DK after them coz they are designed to kill things like that. I would also be fearful of Defilers and their battlecannons, potentially wiping entire squads off the table with direct hits. I'd hate kharn, although im not sure if hes immune to ID. Plasma Cannons scare me. I dont like fighting Nurgle, Tzeentch is meh coz I already have higher ini if Im using halberds. Daemon princes are scary but also an easy fix.

Jaon wrote:

IXLoiero95XI wrote:n Abaddon The Dispoiler who managed to kill himself without inflicting a hit !!!

They are so over powered, those bloody Dreadknights dish out like 20 shots and his whole army had those dam Halberds so there dam initive 6 and they all have power weapons that can kill outright. And all the fancy Psycic Powers, that bloody Dragio fellla smashed my Defiler with his strength 10 things. He used Paladins in the first match and its impossilbe to kill them. And then theres the Psy-Bolt ammon on every things and the 150 shots a turn from his army its just wrong. And Dreadknights teleporting 30" and the blasting the hell out of my Terminators. His Terminators has grenades to whats with that.

How the hell to you beat these guys its seems almost impossilbe, what are there weaknesses other than 'There Expensive', how do i beat them or at least make it a close game?? Please tell me your secretes

Dreadknights cannot fire 20 times, your opponent is cheating.

He can if he has a psilencer, IIRC.
However, as it is S4 AP-, that's not really a problem.

Lol wut? The ENTIRE GK army has halberds? That's just silly.
I think the problem here is not that GK are overpowered, but that you are using the wrong tactics. That, and your opponent may have been cheating, since Draigo only gets the S10 against Psykers and Demons. I doubt that the defiler is a demon.
Oh wait, did the defiler have the demonic possession upgrade, cause that will get the S10 against him.

I field a ton of plasma maxed Plague marines( 7 man squads w pp and fist champ 2 plasma guns in Rhinot), a squad of Berserkers for counter charging, a land raider w daemonic possession, a squad or two of obliterators, and a greater summoned daemon, daemon prince of Khorne, and a Nurgle sorceror (for the fluffyness... plus I know what he can, and cannot do, and act accordingly)

I tabled a grey knight player quite handily with this list

Halberds only cost 2 points on Purifiers and Purifiers are obviously essential to any list....so you're talking, what, at least 10 models with Initiative 6 on 3 units of 5 Purifiers?

If you really wanted to, you could easily stack a good number of Halberds, because in addition to being NFWs, they have no drawback for Purifiers and only cost 2 points.

Haha I love it. "He ust be cheating because theres no way he can do that even though I have no idea if he can or not. Oh wait maybe the op is exaggerating because he's mad."

Silly to be that mad if you ask me. We've gone over this topic a half a dozen times and without lists it silly to proceed again because it will just be flamebait. We can't help if we don't know what were working with.

Fyi gatling psilencer shoots 12 shots.

Also whats counts as a daemon in the csm codex is possessed, vehicles with possession, oblits, dp, and summoned daemons so yes defiler can get whacked at 10.

Draigo wrote:Haha I love it. "He ust be cheating because theres no way he can do that even though I have no idea if he can or not. Oh wait maybe the op is exaggerating because he's mad."

Silly to be that mad if you ask me. We've gone over this topic a half a dozen times and without lists it silly to proceed again because it will just be flamebait. We can't help if we don't know what were working with.

Fyi gatling psilencer shoots 12 shots.

Also whats counts as a daemon in the csm codex is possessed, vehicles with possession, oblits, dp, and summoned daemons so yes defiler can get whacked at 10.

Yeah...it would be nice if the OP posted his list. That will answer a lot of questions.
The GK list wouldn't be that bad either.
Psilencer is only 12 shots? Wow, its even worse than that LRBT variant than I though.

<sigh> people with the misinformation.
Yes, a defiler IS a demon. It comes with demonic possesion, and can't be shaken or stunned.


Vindicators are really good against small elite armies like grey knights.
Oblits are golden.

Grey knights trump all space marine type armies in hth. Initiative 6 with power weapons + Grenades means chaos's versatile advantages mean less. You can't win unless you get a numbers advantage through shooting. The key is understanding the "zone" that grey knights have. Between 13"24" the storm bolters and psycannons have the greatest effect. Between 0-12" you are within charge range. That means if you're going to outshoot, you need to use more range first. If you're gonna go into their shooting kill zone, you need to bring enough targets so that target saturation makes their life difficult. Don't let them isolate and control your units.

Lash is still really good as well.

Dreadknight is pretty weak to oblits. It doesn't like twinlinked plasma very much.

Jaon wrote:Draigo cannot use strength 10 against defilers (correct if wrong?) as it is only STR10 against psykers. A defiler is a vehicle.

Defilers are possessed, so they count as Daemons, so he can be S10.

The key here to beat GK, First you my love the Emperor as a god, then repent from thos weak Chaos gods. Then maybe stop complaining about an army that is better in close combat, kill at range. Then hope the Emperor protects your sorry soul.

In all, GK are the CC masters, out smart them with range.

Im a GK player, I also started a DA army, my tack that always beats GK is 3 dev teams, with only lasscannons and plasma cannons. Now Chaos cant maintain there weapons so plasma is out, so lots of lascannons and vol of fire.

DK wrote:The key here to beat GK, First you my love the Emperor as a god, then repent from thos weak Chaos gods. Then maybe stop complaining about an army that is better in close combat, kill at range. Then hope the Emperor protects your sorry soul.

In all, GK are the CC masters, out smart them with range.

Im a GK player, I also started a DA army, my tack that always beats GK is 3 dev teams, with only lasscannons and plasma cannons. Now Chaos cant maintain there weapons so plasma is out, so lots of lascannons and vol of fire.

As though a model with a Storm Bolter and BS4 base is not a competent ranged unit? Keeping in mind psybolt, psycannons, and psybolt dreads w/ assault cannons.

On platforms of I6 S5 Power Weapons...

Well lets name all the upgrades and hell who is suprised a 400-500 pts squad can beat a 250 pt squad woohoo!

10 Purifiers, 4 Halberds, 2 Hammers, 4 Psycannons: 298 points.

It's not that my 250 point Berserker squad can't win (they can't). It's that my 250 point Berserker squad can't even do damage.

Draigo wrote:Well lets name all the upgrades and hell who is suprised a 400-500 pts squad can beat a 250 pt squad woohoo!

I'm sorry? A Dreadnought with a TL Assault Cannon, an Autocannon, and a Storm Bolter, all with Psybolt Ammunition costs you an AmaaaaAAAAAaaaAzing 135 points. With BS4 and Fortitude.

And I don't even think it's possible to get a Purifier Squad up to 400-500 pts. A 10 man squad of Purifiers with psybolt ammunition, a Daemon Hammer, 2 Psycannons, 7 Halberds and a Brotherhood Banner would cost you 327 pts. You could even throw in a Razorback with a TL Assault Cannon and Psybolt Ammunition for 412 points total. And that Razorback also has Fortitude.

Hell, you could even get 5 Paladins with a Banner and a Psycannon for 395 pts.

Take thousand sons for troops.. seriously. Your AP3 bolters that can fire 24" even if you move can make short work of his infantry units, and if you're assaulted then you've basically just tarpitted one of your opponents units, the 4+invul save means they aren't going to budge. You're not going to beat his units in the assault, you have to acknowledge that, but taking a unit out of the game for 2 turns so the rest of your army can fight on in slightly greater safety is a big help.

TedNugent wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well lets name all the upgrades and hell who is suprised a 400-500 pts squad can beat a 250 pt squad woohoo!

I'm sorry? A Dreadnought with a TL Assault Cannon, an Autocannon, and a Storm Bolter, all with Psybolt Ammunition costs you an AmaaaaAAAAAaaaAzing 135 points. With BS4 and Fortitude.

And I don't even think it's possible to get a Purifier Squad up to 400-500 pts. A 10 man squad of Purifiers with psybolt ammunition, a Daemon Hammer, 2 Psycannons, 7 Halberds and a Brotherhood Banner would cost you 327 pts. You could even throw in a Razorback with a TL Assault Cannon and Psybolt Ammunition for 412 points total. And that Razorback also has Fortitude.

Hell, you could even get 5 Paladins with a Banner and a Psycannon for 395 pts.

Since when is a dreadnaught a squad?

Purifiers can't have a banner only terminators and paladins.

Bezerkers can't do damage? Why? You forget to shoot? Do they always hit and wound against you?

See this is why i can't take any of this crying seriously. I said 400-500 pt squad because I can make them in the codex and people keeping tossing out upgrades left and right. You guys just toss out random stuff from the book.

Dreads in many codexes are cheap and can do silly crap. Sw dreads can get all sorts of wargear for there guys. Furiosos are dirt cheap so boo hoo there. Defilers can be cheap fleet dreads with a battle canon.

The complaining about killing power guys is just silly somehow the chosen's melta doesnt work anymore, the oblits pie plates and other weapons malfunction, defilers canons won't hit, plague marines plasma doesn't work, boo effin hoo. This is just a whiny flame thread with no substance.

Draigo wrote:

Since when is a dreadnaught a squad?

Purifiers can't have a banner only terminators and paladins.

Oh.

I don't know why I thought Purifiers could get a Banner. Well, that's good.

DarkHound wrote:10 Purifiers, 4 Halberds, 2 Hammers, 4 Psycannons: 298 points.
It's not that my 250 point Berserker squad can't win (they can't). It's that my 250 point Berserker squad can't even do damage.

If you get charge, they'll win easily. Assuming 2 plasma pistols and champion with pw:

Round 1:
Berzerkers shoot their pistols at purifiers, killing 2 of them (2 vs 0)
I6: Halberds strike first, killing ~three (3.33) berzerkers. (2 vs 3)
I5: Berserkers hit back, killing ~6 (5.78) purifiers. (8 vs 3)
I4: All psycannons are dead by now
I1: Hammers hit back, killing ~2 berzerkers (1.66) (8 vs 5)

Round 2:
I4: Berserkers hit first (all halberds are dead by now), killing them both.

So, we're gonna see berzerkers losing half their squad for wiping out the purifier squad. I wouldn't call that "no damage".
Points values are pretty close, 270 for berzerkers vs 318 for purifiers.

If you drop plasma pistols and change pw for pf, chances of winning drop, but you're still gonna do about your points value in damage.


Of course, if you allow purifiers to charge your berzerkers, you're pretty much hosed. You'll lose 8 berzerkers (3 from shooting, 5 from halberds, assuming psybolt ammo) before you can even swing back, and then you'll kill ~2 (1.66) purifers in return, after which you die by hammers.
This I agree, is pretty much "no damage".

Hmm, I'm not sure how a fresh berserker squad would be able to shoot pistols and charge purifiers without a landraider or something. Seriously, 4 psycannons and stormbolters is way shootier than berserkers, and you forgot to include the purifier power.

If the purifiers shoot first then charge, they'll wipe out the berserkers with no casulaties no problem. 4 psycannons, purifier power, and halberds is just too much.

The berserkers can't do it alone. But hey, let's go back to that thread where I said khorne chaos marines are good because they're versailte and also shooty. Since the berserkers don't win this in hth, doesn't seem so crazy now, does it?

Where did you get 3 from shooting? The psycannons alone do more than that. You forget to calculate rending?

lol, if the berserkers get the charge, and if CF didnt go first, btw 10 purifires with halberds is 260pts. so thats 20 attacks before the berserks, and with hammerhand thats 6-8 berserks dead at 6I.

now you add an inqu with psyctrofic nades, its downhill from there, also CF should kill 1-2...so looking in all 7-10...again, stay ranged and pray then ask for the Emperors protection

Cleansing Flame would deal roughly

.7*.5*.33

1.155 wounds on average on a 10 man Berzerker Squad before blows have been struck.

DK wrote:lol, if the berserkers get the charge, and if CF didnt go first, btw 10 purifires with halberds is 260pts. so thats 20 attacks before the berserks, and with hammerhand thats 6-8 berserks dead at 6I.

now you add an inqu with psyctrofic nades, its downhill from there, also CF should kill 1-2...so looking in all 7-10...again, stay ranged and pray then ask for the Emperors protection

GKs can't use two powers in one turn. They can only use one. You have to choose between CF and Hammerhand, and the math is telling me that CF deals more wounds on a full squad of Khorne Berzerkers in which the Purifiers are assaulted. Also, when you calculate the rate of success on the Psychic test, Hammerhand actually deals less wounds on average against Khorne Berzerkers than not using it at all. There is also a roughly 5% chance of Perils of the Warp.