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KingDeath wrote:

sumi808 wrote:I wish the original poster would post his army list up .....

lets assume that its a 1500 point game...

Our original poster takes say

Abaddon

8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
8 PM, melta x 2, champ w combimelta + power fist, personal icon
kharn + 9 bezekers including champion with power fist

Obliterator x 2
Obliterator x 2

total = 1502

How can this beat 1500 points of grey knights ? or what is the opponent taking that can table this so easily ?

It can't. Because the list is horrible. Throw out Abaddon, reduce the plaquemarine squads to 5 marines each. They need neither champions nor powerfists nor personal icons.
What they do need is a Rhino, preferably with an extra weapon ( havoc launcher or combiweapon if possible). Kharn + Berserkers without a vehicle is fail. Since the only good vehicle for
Berserkers is a landraider we better take some extra troopchoices with meltas in rhinos. An extra Obliterator squad (2xOblits) makes Tzeentch happy.
You want three things, longrange firepower, tanks ( rhinos ) and meltas ( from your troopchoices ). All other considerations are secondary.

My list is a few posts up, by the time i could post them there had been 45 posts
i will add them to the OP as well for you guys who don't look

TedNugent wrote:
Nonsense. First of all,
You can field 12 TS and a Sorceror w/ Doombolt for the same cost as 2 squads of 10 CSM with 4 Plasma Guns. They each deal just under 4 casualties average at 24 inches against MEQs, but at 18", the TS kill an extra Space Marine. At 12", the CSM deal 8 casualties and the TS deal 9. In other words, in ranged combat against MEQs the TS are superior cost-for-cost.
Assuming a 10 man unit of Purifiers met them In close quarters, the CSM sustain 8.3 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, losing combat by a deficit of 7 wounds and almost certainly failing leadership and breaking combat. The TS sustain 4.5 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, then sustain 1 additional Fearless casualty. The difference is that in the case of the TS, they do not run after the first turn of close combat like CSM usually would against Purifiers, hence the point about them being a potential tarpit against Purifiers.
Read GK Codex. Notice dearth of AP3. Read GK Codex again, more carefully. Notice the fact that -every- -single- unit in the codex is equipped with Power Weapons.
Noise Marines would get shredded in CC by Purifiers. A 15 man squad would sustain 7.5 casualties before retaliating with 1.75 wounds and then sustaining 1.9 Fearless deaths. That's 63% of the unit killed. By contrast I had 42% of the TS unit killed in one round of combat. The difference is only .75 wounds dealt in CC, for the loss of a substantial amount of ranged firepower compared to TS.
Without taking into consideration the Noise Marine template. But frankly I don't see the Noise Marine template dealing anywhere near as many casualties as TS shooting.

Ok, your first bad assumption is that everyone is on foot. Chaos gets 35 point rhinos. That is what makes 5x plague marines with 2x plasma guns the best troop unit in the dex. Guess how many fire points a rhino has? What would you rather shoot out of that fire point, 2 plasma rifles that are pretty much immune to gets hot, or 2 ap3 bolters.

Even noise marines are better here, because they can take a 48" range blast master, which is like taking a plasma cannon, and a doom siren on 5 guys.

1ksons are horrible because bolters in general are terrible weapons even with ap3. Unless you hop out of the rhino to shoot all your guys they aren't going to do anything. And once you hop out of the rhino and get assaulted they are dead, because they are horrible in assault.

Kevlar wrote:

Ok, your first bad assumption is that everyone is on foot. Chaos gets 35 point rhinos. That is what makes 5x plague marines with 2x plasma guns the best troop unit in the dex. Guess how many fire points a rhino has? What would you rather shoot out of that fire point, 2 plasma rifles that are pretty much immune to gets hot, or 2 ap3 bolters.

Even noise marines are better here, because they can take a 48" range blast master, which is like taking a plasma cannon, and a doom siren on 5 guys.

1ksons are horrible because bolters in general are terrible weapons even with ap3. Unless you hop out of the rhino to shoot all your guys they aren't going to do anything. And once you hop out of the rhino and get assaulted they are dead, because they are horrible in assault.

Well of course, if you only had 2 firing ports and you were going to stay in a transport you would be better off getting whatever maximized the firepower in those two slots.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:This is a thread i started on Beating Grey Knights With Chaos Space Marines, not lets do Mathhammer on everything to say how things "should" turn out. Its sort of of topic because there has been only a few ideas for combating them, every one else is arguing about who is better

Uh ? "Stop helping me by mathhammering to see what unit would be the most effective against GK" ?

Kevlar wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
Nonsense. First of all,
You can field 12 TS and a Sorceror w/ Doombolt for the same cost as 2 squads of 10 CSM with 4 Plasma Guns. They each deal just under 4 casualties average at 24 inches against MEQs, but at 18", the TS kill an extra Space Marine. At 12", the CSM deal 8 casualties and the TS deal 9. In other words, in ranged combat against MEQs the TS are superior cost-for-cost.
Assuming a 10 man unit of Purifiers met them In close quarters, the CSM sustain 8.3 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, losing combat by a deficit of 7 wounds and almost certainly failing leadership and breaking combat. The TS sustain 4.5 casualties before dealing back 1 casualty, then sustain 1 additional Fearless casualty. The difference is that in the case of the TS, they do not run after the first turn of close combat like CSM usually would against Purifiers, hence the point about them being a potential tarpit against Purifiers.
Read GK Codex. Notice dearth of AP3. Read GK Codex again, more carefully. Notice the fact that -every- -single- unit in the codex is equipped with Power Weapons.
Noise Marines would get shredded in CC by Purifiers. A 15 man squad would sustain 7.5 casualties before retaliating with 1.75 wounds and then sustaining 1.9 Fearless deaths. That's 63% of the unit killed. By contrast I had 42% of the TS unit killed in one round of combat. The difference is only .75 wounds dealt in CC, for the loss of a substantial amount of ranged firepower compared to TS.
Without taking into consideration the Noise Marine template. But frankly I don't see the Noise Marine template dealing anywhere near as many casualties as TS shooting.

Ok, your first bad assumption is that everyone is on foot. Chaos gets 35 point rhinos. That is what makes 5x plague marines with 2x plasma guns the best troop unit in the dex. Guess how many fire points a rhino has? What would you rather shoot out of that fire point, 2 plasma rifles that are pretty much immune to gets hot, or 2 ap3 bolters.

Even noise marines are better here, because they can take a 48" range blast master, which is like taking a plasma cannon, and a doom siren on 5 guys.

1ksons are horrible because bolters in general are terrible weapons even with ap3. Unless you hop out of the rhino to shoot all your guys they aren't going to do anything. And once you hop out of the rhino and get assaulted they are dead, because they are horrible in assault.

Since when do Grey Knights leave home without at least a couple of Psyflemen dreads? How exactly do you propose getting into range with that rhino exactly, between the 4 Twin-linked S8 shots (per dread) and all the other anti-tank weapons they can field?? And since we're assuming purifier spam, what about all the psycannons that they can field themselves?

The only advantage that the other units have over Thousand Sons is that you dont have to take more than 10 of them to make them cost effective. This I will acknowledge. A large unit of TS is a tough nut to crack, likewise it will put a hurt on most enemies (provided the rest of your army is geared to crack the metal box they hide in), but you lose the flexibility of having say 4 squads of 10 when you take 2 squads of 20. Plus slow and purposeful hampers their mobility ><

Um actually dk and landraiders are not that uncommon and psyfleman will lose popularity light armor spam goes on the waste side. Henchman make more use of them then any other variat since the troops are less.

At 1850 I can almost have 90ish psycanon shots if I dont move for purifiers.

At 1850 its closer to 30 if I run a brick of paladins.

Henchman wont..

Itll be interesting when another horde style army comes out with a book cause then psyfleman will vanish since even 3 of them killing with every wound can barely take care of ork boyz etc with a kff. lol

chaos0xomega wrote:

Since when do Grey Knights leave home without at least a couple of Psyflemen dreads? How exactly do you propose getting into range with that rhino exactly, between the 4 Twin-linked S8 shots (per dread) and all the other anti-tank weapons they can field?? And since we're assuming purifier spam, what about all the psycannons that they can field themselves?

The only advantage that the other units have over Thousand Sons is that you dont have to take more than 10 of them to make them cost effective. This I will acknowledge. A large unit of TS is a tough nut to crack, likewise it will put a hurt on most enemies (provided the rest of your army is geared to crack the metal box they hide in), but you lose the flexibility of having say 4 squads of 10 when you take 2 squads of 20. Plus slow and purposeful hampers their mobility ><

How are any psyriflemen going to be left alive after turn 1 when the 9 obliterators get done with them?

Kevlar wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Since when do Grey Knights leave home without at least a couple of Psyflemen dreads? How exactly do you propose getting into range with that rhino exactly, between the 4 Twin-linked S8 shots (per dread) and all the other anti-tank weapons they can field?? And since we're assuming purifier spam, what about all the psycannons that they can field themselves?

The only advantage that the other units have over Thousand Sons is that you dont have to take more than 10 of them to make them cost effective. This I will acknowledge. A large unit of TS is a tough nut to crack, likewise it will put a hurt on most enemies (provided the rest of your army is geared to crack the metal box they hide in), but you lose the flexibility of having say 4 squads of 10 when you take 2 squads of 20. Plus slow and purposeful hampers their mobility ><

How are any psyriflemen going to be left alive after turn 1 when the 9 obliterators get done with them?

Yeah. I hate oblis. They pop transports / units / even my lovely paladins.
I'd recon the TS are also a pain in the ass for my GKSS & MEQ.

Draigo wrote:Um actually dk and landraiders are not that uncommon and psyfleman will lose popularity light armor spam goes on the waste side. Henchman make more use of them then any other variat since the troops are less.

At 1850 I can almost have 90ish psycanon shots if I dont move for purifiers.

At 1850 its closer to 30 if I run a brick of paladins.

Henchman wont..

Itll be interesting when another horde style army comes out with a book cause then psyfleman will vanish since even 3 of them killing with every wound can barely take care of ork boyz etc with a kff. lol

Um, Cleansing Flame?

TedNugent wrote:

Draigo wrote:Um actually dk and landraiders are not that uncommon and psyfleman will lose popularity light armor spam goes on the waste side. Henchman make more use of them then any other variat since the troops are less.

At 1850 I can almost have 90ish psycanon shots if I dont move for purifiers.

At 1850 its closer to 30 if I run a brick of paladins.

Henchman wont..

Itll be interesting when another horde style army comes out with a book cause then psyfleman will vanish since even 3 of them killing with every wound can barely take care of ork boyz etc with a kff. lol

Um, Cleansing Flame?

I've never had cf do much more then maybe kill 2-3 and never seen a batrep where it did much more so *shrug*.

Cleansing Flame hits a squad of 30 15 times. If they have a 5+ save, 10 die immediately. If they have a 6+ save, 13 die. Unless you suddenly changed your meaning to Cleansing Flame against MEQs, you're lying.

Draigo wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Draigo wrote:Um actually dk and landraiders are not that uncommon and psyfleman will lose popularity light armor spam goes on the waste side. Henchman make more use of them then any other variat since the troops are less.

At 1850 I can almost have 90ish psycanon shots if I dont move for purifiers.

At 1850 its closer to 30 if I run a brick of paladins.

Henchman wont..

Itll be interesting when another horde style army comes out with a book cause then psyfleman will vanish since even 3 of them killing with every wound can barely take care of ork boyz etc with a kff. lol

Um, Cleansing Flame?

I've never had cf do much more then maybe kill 2-3 and never seen a batrep where it did much more so *shrug*.

Well let me find you a few then.





This one is pretty silly, I don't know what either of these guys were trying to accomplish, complete build mismatch, and evidently the GK player didn't know that Purifiers were fearless,

but in any case, you can see how an entire unit of boyz basically disappears in a single turn during assault phase, and it's a pretty vanilla horde army list.



And again, entire squads of 30 boyz essentially disappearing in a turn



If you prefer prose, which I can understand, because watching batreps is pretty unbearable stuff,

http://nike40k.blogspot.com/2011/05/40k-battle-report-grey-knights-vs-orks.html
"He charged his Boyz on the right into my unit of 2 Purifiers. The Purifiers cast Cleansing Flame, killing 4 or 5. Then they killed one or two with their halberd attacks. His attacks back killed one Purifier."
"Cleansing Flame killed 5 of the truck Boyz, and my normal attacks killed like 1."
"On the left, Crowe cast Cleansing Flame, killing 7 of the 12 Orks, and went into his Defensive Stance, which allowed him to weather the remaining attacks back Matrix style."
"On the left, I cast Cleansing Flame, killing 4 or so Burnaz. My attacks killed 5 more. The Burnaz attacks back killed 1 Purifier."

Of course you could always just look at the mathematics. If a 30 man squad of boyz assaulted a 10 Halberd Purifier Squad, assuming you pass the psychic test, on average it would look like this:

.5*.83*30
12.45 unsaved wounds from CF
.5*.5*2*10
5 unsaved wounds from halberds at I6
.5*.5*.33*3*13.55
3.35 wounds from Boyz
.5*.83*4
1.66 wounds from PK Nob

Followed by another 10 wounds on the Boyz from Fearless wounds

A 12 man unit of Trukk Boyz would sustain, on average, 5 wounds from CF, and an additional 1.5 at I6 from 3 Purifiers w/ Halberds.

----

In short, I don't know what your experiences are, but based on the mathematics alone, it is absurd to suggest that CF does not kill more than "2-3" Boyz when its rules in the Codex grant it a 5/6 chance of success against half of a Squad of Boyz. If you've never seen more than 3 kills on a unit of Boyz from Cleansing Flame, you don't play Grey Knights.

Kevlar wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Since when do Grey Knights leave home without at least a couple of Psyflemen dreads? How exactly do you propose getting into range with that rhino exactly, between the 4 Twin-linked S8 shots (per dread) and all the other anti-tank weapons they can field?? And since we're assuming purifier spam, what about all the psycannons that they can field themselves?

The only advantage that the other units have over Thousand Sons is that you dont have to take more than 10 of them to make them cost effective. This I will acknowledge. A large unit of TS is a tough nut to crack, likewise it will put a hurt on most enemies (provided the rest of your army is geared to crack the metal box they hide in), but you lose the flexibility of having say 4 squads of 10 when you take 2 squads of 20. Plus slow and purposeful hampers their mobility ><

How are any psyriflemen going to be left alive after turn 1 when the 9 obliterators get done with them?

Correct me if im wrong, but cant Grey Knights have 6 psyflemen? You can only have 3 units of oblits...

chaos0xomega wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but cant Grey Knights have 6 psyflemen? You can only have 3 units of oblits...

I have been building lists with 3 oblit units, and 3 units of 3 terminators with reaper autocannons. Reapers wouldn't be the greatest against the dreads, but can pop razors and rhinos like nobody's business. They are also pretty immune to return fire from said razorbacks and dreads since they have 2+ instead of an AV.

Even with six dreads the oblits will kill all the dreads long before the dreads kill all the oblits.

3 Oblit Lascannons score a single penetrating hit per turn. It would take 3 turns for 9 Oblits to clean up 3 Dreadnoughts. In the mean time, the each Dreadnought has just over a 90% chance to kill or immobilize a Rhino per turn. Assuming you pop smoke on the first turn, the 3 Dreadnoughts would score 4 Rhino kills by turn 2. They'd be injured by turn 3, so the statistics become muddled, but it's safe to say 3 Dreadnoughts can demech you faster than you can kill them. Plus the 3 Dreadnoughts cost about half what the Obliterators do.

DarkHound wrote:Cleansing Flame hits a squad of 30 15 times. If they have a 5+ save, 10 die immediately. If they have a 6+ save, 13 die. Unless you suddenly changed your meaning to Cleansing Flame against MEQs, you're lying.

..and you have a poor attitude. I don't see the need for sayin people are lying because you decide to do a math problem.

Everyone needs to be calm...and just know that I have only had one chaos list that tabled my psyrifle dread list of 6, and it was a term list...i washed oblits out the window with dreads and outflanked palidins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I didnt mean to come off cocky, I ment to add the Emperor protects, my weapon is a vessel to his fury, and he hates your chaos pogs