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"Chamber Militant" is a more... professional tie. The GK, for example, are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition. That places the GK under the direct control of the Inquisition, not the game of politics that the =I= is sometimes forced to play with other First Founding/Second Founding Chapters. Where the Ordo Malleus points, the GK goes.
Used to be, the Sisters were the same thing with the Ordo Hereticus. Might still be, but the language, as written, has changed, which suggests a greater separation between the two, but nothing is definitively stated yet. So the Sisters might be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus. They might be the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. They might be both.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Used to be, the Sisters were the same thing with the Ordo Hereticus. Might still be, but the language, as written, has changed, which suggests a greater separation between the two, but nothing is definitively stated yet. So the Sisters might be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus. They might be the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. They might be both.
Would not surprise me if, in the next codex, they single out a single order of SoB as the Chamber Militant. Then again, cutting that tie completely or going back to the way it was in Witch Hunters are also things that would not surprise me.
From what I've read in sources from the 2e SoB codex through to the 6e rulebook, it goes something like this;
The Adepta Sororitas was founded to act in a dual role as both the military wing of the Adeptus Ministorum and as a watchdog organisation to punish any cardinals who begin to abuse their power. In a way, they're a combined army / internal affairs division. This was all done at the order of Ecclesiarch Sebastian Thor in the wake of the Age of Apostasy.
At the same time, the newly-appointed High Lord of the Adeptus Terra decided that he didn't trust the Ecclesiarchy to police itself and ordered the creation of the Ordo Hereticus to act as a watchdog on the Ecclesiarchy and make sure that none of their priests or cardinals got too big for their boots and attempted to take over like Vandire did (neatly ignoring the fact that Vandire was Adeptus Terra before he was Adeptus Ministorum).
Because the Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus were basically founded to do the same job, they often find it convenient to work alongside each other and call upon each other for support - obviously, it's far more common for an Inquisitor to need the aid of an army of hardened soldiers than it is for a Sororitas Witch-finder to need the skills of an Inquisitor, since they themselves are rather good at that job.
As a parting shot, I'll just add that the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is a High Lord of Terra herself. This befits her status as outside the Ecclesiarchy's direct control (because of their watchdog status). This doesn't really mesh well with the idea of them being the 'chamber militant' of the Ordo Hereticus - that would make them an outright subordinate organisation, and therefore they would need to be represented on the Council by the Grand High Inquisitor, or whatever the Inquisition's High Lord is calling him or herself these days.
Their alliance often sees them acting in the same role that a Chamber Militant would act, but lets face it - there are hundreds of Ordos in the Inquisition, and only two of them have 100% confirmed Chamber Militants.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Although I imagine there are little stresses in that partnership from time to time, especially when you have one of those Inquisitors who stomps around and yells at people and shoves his plasma pistol in their faces.... I can see that guy "accidentally" getting a bolter round in the back of the head from the Sisters he's commandeered.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Furyou Miko wrote:Because the Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus were basically founded to do the same job, they often find it convenient to work alongside each other and call upon each other for support - obviously, it's far more common for an Inquisitor to need the aid of an army of hardened soldiers than it is for a Sororitas Witch-finder to need the skills of an Inquisitor, since they themselves are rather good at that job.
It's not just the mutual and overlapping agenda. Shortly after the Sisters of Battle were established, the newly founded Ordo Hereticus got nervous and moved to chastise the Ecclesiarchy for this circumvention of the Decree Passive. The so-called Conclave of Nephilim had the involved factions debate this issue, but by allying the Sisterhood to the Inquisition as a Chamber Militant, the crisis was averted.
A brilliant gambit by the emergent Sisterhood to secure its continued existence whilst simultaneously strengthening its role as a watchdog of the Ecclesiarchy - especially given that Inquisitors are authorised to recruit any and all Imperial forces in the pursuit of their duties anyways. Not only did the Adepta Sororitas acquire a number of powerful contacts and the political protection of the Ordo Hereticus, but as a side-effect of the latter also relative immunity from Inquisitors of other Ordos. Anyone who wanted to move against the Sororitas, or perhaps even just recruit them for their missions, would have to go through the Ordo Hereticus now.
The Conclave of Nephilim is an important detail in the faction's history/background, although it is mentioned only in the 3E Codex Witch Hunters and thus perhaps not widely known.
Furyou Miko wrote:As a parting shot, I'll just add that the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is a High Lord of Terra herself. This befits her status as outside the Ecclesiarchy's direct control (because of their watchdog status). This doesn't really mesh well with the idea of them being the 'chamber militant' of the Ordo Hereticus - that would make them an outright subordinate organisation, and therefore they would need to be represented on the Council by the Grand High Inquisitor, or whatever the Inquisition's High Lord is calling him or herself these days.
Their alliance often sees them acting in the same role that a Chamber Militant would act, but lets face it - there are hundreds of Ordos in the Inquisition, and only two of them have 100% confirmed Chamber Militants.
Not quite...
The Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas is amongst the potential High Lords - unlike that of the Ecclesiarch, her seat isn't guaranteed, so her role is more comparable to, say, the Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard, which is a sub-org of the Administratum (through its link of the Departmento Munitorum).
And much like the Imperial Guard is primarily represented by the Master of the Administratum, the Sisterhood is primarily represented by the Ecclesiarch. They are a sub-org of the Church Militant, after all.
It is also worth pointing out that "Chamber Militant" does not have to mean an organisational affiliation that overrides that of the linked faction's actual paternal Adeptus. This term was invented together (in 3E) with the notion that the Sisters of Battle serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Thus it seems as if all that the term "Chamber Militant" means is that the thusly titled organisation is the "go-to force" for authorised Inquisitors of the respective Ordo, and that they are sworn to follow his or her orders.
The Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are also Chambers Militant, but since their Inquisitorial affiliation is their sole and only responsibility, they are de-facto owned and equipped by the Inquisition, whilst for the Sisterhood (which receives personnel and armaments via the Ecclesiarchy) it is more like a side job.
"It is clear then that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-teams of the Deathwatch Space Marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights Space Marines." - Inquisitor RPG Thorian Sourcebook
SisterSydney wrote:I can see that guy "accidentally" getting a bolter round in the back of the head from the Sisters he's commandeered.
Ouphh. I think they are too indoctrinated and subservient to authority to "snap" like that, tbh.
SisterSydney wrote: Although I imagine there are little stresses in that partnership from time to time, especially when you have one of those Inquisitors who stomps around and yells at people and shoves his plasma pistol in their faces.... I can see that guy "accidentally" getting a bolter round in the back of the head from the Sisters he's commandeered.
I don't see that happening, considering that the Inquisition's authority descends directly from the word and hand of the God-Emperor. He was still alive and kicking when the Inquisition was founded, and it was He who issued their remit to go anywhere, do anything, answering to none but Him. A Sister who takes issue with an Inquisitor doing his/her duty would be taking issue with the direct word of the God-Emperor.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
But the Ecclesiarchy also gets its authority directly from the God-Emperor. I doubt Sisters would be undisciplined, but if an order from the local Cardinal directly conflicted with an order from the Inquisitor, I think their choice of whom to obey could go either way, depending on the perceived piety of the two parties.
The Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition and the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas have a complicated and contradictory relationship. In theory, both organizations were created after the fall of High Lord Vandire to ensure the Ecclesiarchy was never again befouled by such heresy and treason. In fact, the Sisters spend much of their time hunting heretics and traitors on orders from the clergy, while the Inquisitors spend much of their time hunting for heretics and traitors among the clergy.
The Ordo Hereticus has special rights to call on the Adepta Sororitas for support, but Inquisitors who tried the usual "shout, intimidate, and execute" tactics against the Ecclesiarchy often encountered tragic accidents when, for example, a junior Sister in the Inquisitor's retinue accidentally discharged a boltgun into the back of his head. (The Sisters in question were, of course, severely reprimanded and later, quite coincidentally, promoted). Radical Inquisitors who made blatant use of psychic powers or, worse, daemonhosts often felt driven to suicide, with one notable example chaining himself to a stake, dousing himself in promethium, setting himself afire, and then, after he was dead, firing melta guns into both his eyeballs at point-blank range just to make sure, according to the Sisters under his command ("It was very sad," one told investigators afterward).
Conversely, when an Inquisitor did convince the Sisters that a member of the clergy had betrayed the Emperor, they often erupted in indignation and killed the suspect, the suspect's family, and anyone standing relatively close to the suspect before any useful interrogations could be performed.
As a result, over the centuries, the Ordo Hereticus learned to assign a special breed of highly diplomatic Inquisitor -- almost always female -- for missions requiring close liaison with the Adepta Sororitas, and to keep some of the Inquisition's other assets at a safe distance from the Sisters.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I think in that case, the Sisters would say: "ONE of you is wrong, and NEITHER of you is leaving until we know which."
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
The Ecclesiarchy did not exist, in its current form, during the Emperor's "life". While there were definitely cults venerating him (and not just the ones Lorgar created), it was not until the Emperor's Ascension that these cults would undergo a series of consolidations and Wars of Faith to become the nascent Ecclesiarchy (though the form it took then was also very different from "now", the modern Ecclesiarchy would not come to be until the Age of Apostasy). This was, at the time, the Temple of the Savior Emperor, having the fortune of being based on Terra and counting amongst its congregation millions of veterans of the Imperial Army.
This, of course, has a real-world mirror in the establishment of Catholicism in the centuries following the Crucifixion, the consolidations and purges performed by/carried out against the various Gnostic Cults, and all that sort of thing that went on for a thousand years or more.
So, while the modern Ecclesiarchy acts as if they have a mandate from "On High", and are definitely the most influential of Imperial bodies, and are treated by everyone else as if the God-Emperor mandated its existence.... He didn't. He pretty much ignored them during his life. The Inquisition, however, exists because He dictated the need for it and its remit to Malcador.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
If they were in any doubt, absolutely. But even in that case, it's unlikely that the Cardinal and the Inquisitor will both leave the room alive...
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Whether or not the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition have any right to proclaim speaking for the Emperor is of no consequence - it does not matter as long as the people, including the Sisters of Battle, believe it is so.
Psienesis wrote:He was still alive and kicking when the Inquisition was founded, and it was He who issued their remit to go anywhere, do anything, answering to none but Him.
I am not at all certain whether or not GW still pursues this angle, but it is so deliciously ironic - and would be a prime example of how the millennia affect a seemingly conservative Imperium in the shadows, turning lies into truths, legend into fact, and changing the purpose of entire factions without its members even realising it.
Furyou Miko wrote:I think in that case, the Sisters would say: "ONE of you is wrong, and NEITHER of you is leaving until we know which."
Exalted.
I'd put my money on the Inquisitor coming out of that incident unharmed, though. The Sisters are tasked not just with protecting, but also policing the Ecclesiarchy, and thus have ample experience with Cardinals committing heresy and/or turning traitor. Inquisitors, on the other hand? I'm fairly sure that this rather secretive organisation keeps a tight lid on any internal struggles, especially concerning *gasp* Radicals.
So when you have a member of an organisation that is entirely dedicated to rooting out heresy confront a member of another organisation that has a history of producing heretics ... whatcha gonna do, Sister?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/02 19:01:01
So when you have a member of an organisation that is entirely dedicated to rooting out heresy confront a member of another organisation that has a history of producing heretics ... whatcha gonna do, Sister?
Burn everything. There is no innocence only variable degrees of guilt.
Sadly, with Cardinals generally taking the role of "bumbling scooby doo villain" in most appearances, the only notable quote we have on the Ecclesiarchy side is Goge Vandire's "I don't have time to die, I'm too busy!"
If only there were some nuggets from Jacobus. I bet he's REAL quotable.
There must be some from Kyrinov floating around though...
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
"Plea of Innocence" was Karamazov, I think. Similar name, nicer chair, not a priest. :(
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Another would be: "Innocence proves nothing!" (Don't know who produced this gem)
And I, too would rather bet on the Inquisitor (if he's not a radical)... In any case: women's choice^^
"When in deadly danger,
When beset by doubt,
run in little circles,
wave your arms and shout." - Litany of Command (parody)
DR:80+SG-MB--I+Pw40k13#----D++A+/eWD-R++T(F)DM+
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/03 01:34:35
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
14000 points 
