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Spinning off of this thread, where a discussion on "Sisters and Templars should totally be Battle Brothers" spun off into "but what about Sisters and Grey Knights," I've put together some proposed rules on

1) restoring the Sister's anti-psyker bonus from Codex:WItchhunters
but
2) limiting Sisters' ability to make up for their own lack of psykers by using an ally's
and
3) and splitting Codex:Grey Knights into, essentially, Ordo Hereticus-led forces that Sisters love (Battle Brothers) and filthy psykers they don't like at all (Desperate Allies).

The actual rules are below, along with rather more fluff than I originally meant to write (spoilered so you don't have to read it). Obviously the whole point of posting this on a forum is to get feedback, so feel free to praise, pillory, or, best of all, suggest changes.

(1)
Add to "Shield of Faith" SR: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule receives a +1 bonus to Deny the Witch rolls (see BRB pg. 68). Note that this bonus is separate from and cumulative with the bonus from Adamantine Will: A unit with both Adamantine Will and Shield of Faith, therefore, gets a +2 bonus to Deny the Witch.

(2)
The Only Good Psyker....

If Sisters of Battle are allied to a force that contains any psykers, then the Sisters and those psykers treat each other as Desperate Allies, even if the two forces as a whole are Allies of Convenience or even Battle Brothers.

(3) Ordo Hereticus Sororal Forces

An Ordo Hereticus Sororal Force uses Codex:Grey Knights, but with the following modifications:
- At least one HQ choice must be an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor.
- Inquisitorial henchmen can be taken as Troops choices.
- The detachment must include no psykers of any kind.
An Ordo Hereticus Sororal Force and a Sisters of Battle force are Battle Brothers.

The Grey knights are pretty much as close to the direct sons of the Emperor you'll get now that the Primarchs are out of the picture.

I'm pretty sure the sisters who know of them would have very few problems working with them.

Forget the whole blood=armor-paint incident. GK and Sisters are totally cool with each other.

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:


Forget the whole blood=armor-paint incident. GK and Sisters are totally cool with each other.

I'm pretty sure if the Grey knights wanted to, they'd easily be able to cover that up from the Ecclesiarchy. And they probably did.

 Kain wrote:
The Grey knights are pretty much as close to the direct sons of the Emperor you'll get now that the Primarchs are out of the picture.

I'm pretty sure the sisters who know of them would have very few problems working with them.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Whoever briefed the Sisters on their new allies before the mission could go heavy on the "secret sacred sons of the Emperor specially blessed to destroy the daemons" and light on the "oh by they say the Emperor has granted them psychic powers, sort of like astropaths, so they're, y'know, good psykers."

And yes the blood-paint incident would easily be covered up, there being no survivors and all.

But what do people think about Sisters' willingness to cooperate with psykers from other Imperial forces?

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Grey knights are pretty much as close to the direct sons of the Emperor you'll get now that the Primarchs are out of the picture.

I'm pretty sure the sisters who know of them would have very few problems working with them.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Whoever briefed the Sisters on their new allies before the mission could go heavy on the "secret sacred sons of the Emperor specially blessed to destroy the daemons" and light on the "oh by they say the Emperor has granted them psychic powers, sort of like astropaths, so they're, y'know, good psykers."

And yes the blood-paint incident would easily be covered up, there being no survivors and all.

But what do people think about Sisters' willingness to cooperate with psykers from other Imperial forces?

Depends, a well controlled and very presentable psyker like many Inquisitors are? You'll get some grumbles and scolding at most.

An obviously not all there Psyker who often rants about how the plastic tips of your shoelaces are called aglets and have a sinister true purpose? Scorn, almost definitely on the gak list.

A foaming at the mouth nutty psyker only kept in line because there's like thirty lasguns aimed at him at all times? They may just kill the guy before he goes Daemonhost/Enslaver portal on everyone.

Daemonhost or Enslaver conduit?

That makes sense. "One eye open" for any unit containing certain kinds of psykers, but otherwise no effect on alliance rules. Instead, let's just restore the old rule from Codex:Witchhunters that friendly psykers can't buff Sisters with beneficial psychic powers.

Battle Sister: You want to do what?
Sanctioned Psyker: It won't hurt, honest, and it'll help you by....
Battle Sister: No. Fething. Way.
Sanctioned Psyker: C'mon, how do you know you don't like when you haven't even tried it?
Battle Sister: Not gonna.
Sanctioned Psyker: Really, it'll be fine...
[repeat for 15 minutes until Psyker gives up[/]

(Okay, actually the Sisters' Psyker-resistance would just cause the buff to automatically fail, but that's less fun to imagine).

Then, in terms of alliance rules, regular GK stay Allies of Convenience, Ordo Hereticus forces without psykers (as described in my first post) can be Battle Brothers.

Personally I am happy wtih Allies of Conveience for GK/Sisters:

The Grey Kinghts actively prevent knowledge of their existance and most imperial organisations that encounter them on the battlefield (which is most likely) will just think they are Astartes - until they start the killing.

Now the Sisters - like any good Psyker hating Imperial citizen have to rely on Psykers for interstellar transport and communication, will come into contact with sanctioned Pyskers in the form of Inquistors, Astartes Librarians, Guard Battle Sykers etc - they may not like them but hey the Sororitas are not there to like people..............

I would have liked (amongst other things) to have seen the option of an Inquisitor as a HQ or Elite Choice in the SoB Codex..........

 Mr Morden wrote:
Personally I am happy wtih Allies of Conveience for GK/Sisters:

The Grey Kinghts actively prevent knowledge of their existance and most imperial organisations that encounter them on the battlefield (which is most likely) will just think they are Astartes - until they start the killing.

This is a BAD IDEA when fighting alongside Sisters. To quote myself from an earlier thread:

Yeah, I'd imagine 99% of Sisters of Battle don't have "need to know" that the Grey Knights even exist, let alone that they're all (filthy) psykers. But once the GK start firing mind bullets out of their laser eyes, I think any Sisters working with them would figure it out PRETTY FETHING FAST. And you would really, really want to brief the allied Sisters, down to at least the squad leader level, BEFORE the battle starts, so you don't get things like this:

BATTLE SISTER #1: Omygosh, they're psykers! Filthy, filthy psykers!
BATTLE SISTER #2: Heresy! Treachery! Kay-oss!
SISTER SUPERIOR: Godless Astartes are always gettin' corrupted, goddamit. Okay, girls -- BURN 'EM DOWN!

Yeah, you don't want that.

On the other hand,

I would have liked (amongst other things) to have seen the option of an Inquisitor as a HQ or Elite Choice in the SoB Codex.........

This is a VERY GOOD IDEA. I don't have access to Codex:GK, though, so I have no idea what the Ordo Hereticus Inquistor looks like rules-wise.

First: Thank you Sydney for spinning off the post^^
Basically I think the splitting up of the GK Codex makes sense. Especially since you're able to take Inquisitors from all of the three Ordos (Malleus, Xenos, Haereticus). It would be also interesting to differentiate between puritan and radical inquisitors (since it is possible to give your Malleus inquisitor demonblades and you can have demonhosts as henchmen)
When briefing the Sisters about the Grey Knights they are going to fight alongside with, I would not mention the word psyker at all, but rather the "especially blessed by our mighty God Emperor"-thing. During Battle, I would try to keep the occupied (if someone sees the GKs powers, I would shout "acts of faith") and after the battle...brainwipe time
I agree with Mr Morden about the possibility to take an Inquisitor in the Sisters' codex (wasn't there once the option to take Karamasov?).

@ Sister Sidney

The Sororitas are not there to just burn Psykers indiscremently - unless the Grey Knights are actively using obvious heretical practices - the Sisters are gong to assume that the you and your abilities are sanctioned like any other Imperial Psyker.

You can get stats and maybe some more ideas here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/478160.page

Mr Morden:, Thankz for linkz.

 Atropamin wrote:
if someone sees the GKs powers, I would shout "acts of faith") and after the battle...brainwipe time

The thing is the acts of faith are all things where you can "wait, was that a miracle or just really good luck?" Laser eyes, not so much.

A lucky warp eruption, manifesting itself in the eyes of some random bloke... (thank the Emperor that the Grey Knights don't have laser eyes...)
I know that the sisters are trained to recognise witchfire on sight, but it's not like you have the presence of mind to look exactly at what your ally is during while you are occupied defending your own skin against the heretics (and xenos and demons....)

That's a fair point. It'd be more like

BATTLE SISTER #1: Did that Marine just....
SISTER SUPERIOR: Eyes on target!
BATTLE SISTER #1: But his eyes, they...
SISTER SUPERIOR: Stop watching the Astartes!
BATTLE SISTER #2 (sing-song): Alicia has a crush!
BATTLE SISTER #1: I do not!
SISTER SUPERIOR: Would everybody just SHUT UP AND SHOOT THINGS!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Atropamin wrote:
First: Thank you Sydney for spinning off the post^^
Basically I think the splitting up of the GK Codex makes sense. Especially since you're able to take Inquisitors from all of the three Ordos (Malleus, Xenos, Haereticus). It would be also interesting to differentiate between puritan and radical inquisitors (since it is possible to give your Malleus inquisitor demonblades and you can have demonhosts as henchmen).....

So what units from Codex:Grey Knights would comprise a "Puritan Ordo Hereticus" sub-list -- one with no actual Grey Knights in it -- that Sisters could be Battle Brothers with? I don't have C:GK, so I'm somewhat handicapped, but my first stab would be

HQs: only OH inquisitors (including named special characters); psykers are allowed but daemonhosts are most definitely not.
Troops: only Inquisitorial Henchmen
Dedicated transports: Rhinos, Chimeras, the works
Elites: only Assassins
Heavy Support: only Land Raiders
Fast Attack: ummm...

Obviously this would be a very limited list, most suited to an allied detachment rather than a primary detachment, but it could get some cool new options into a mostly-Sisters force.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Mr Morden:, Thankz for linkz.

 Atropamin wrote:
if someone sees the GKs powers, I would shout "acts of faith") and after the battle...brainwipe time

The thing is the acts of faith are all things where you can "wait, was that a miracle or just really good luck?" Laser eyes, not so much.

I want the 6th edition GK codex to give us Laser eyes now. It's like w're all mini Primarchs, mixed with Commisar Yarick Laserbeams, and phycic powers out the .

Essentially, An army of Laser Eye toting Wizard Knights!

Hmm, gonna leave my feedback for each suggestion individually:

1: I very much agree about restoring the Shield of Faith's special protection against psykers. One could argue it is "sort of included" in the new Shield by allowing to roll saves vs stuff like Witchfire, but I still prefer the old version for two reasons:
- it is more obviously an anti-psyker thing and very in line with their theme
- it reduces dice-rolling by only working against psychic attacks

So feth the 6++ invul save, just give me back my old stuff, kthxbye. Including the auto-reactive immunity against beneficial psyker powers.

I would, however, not let the Shield of Faith protect anyone other than who actually has it, so I'd vote against letting its effect apply to squad members who don't have it - just like it worked with the original rules. It's a matter of willpower, and although a Sister may prevent a psychic manifestation from affect herself, I don't think she could "will it away" for someone who is standing several meters away.
Actually, thinking about this, an argument could be made for this to work (it would explain how daemons get "banished"), but if it were an AoE effect then it should work like one with a specified range in inches similar to the banner or the book. I still think that a "toned down" personal protection fits best, though. Perhaps there could be a houseruled special character or relic that expands the Shield of Faith bonus to allied squads and/or characters in the vicinity?

2: Very fluffy! I don't think anything needs to be added here.

3: The fluff bit sounds a bit much and makes the Sisters appear unusually undisciplined - reminding me more about the Catachan special rules about shooting Commissars than the Sororitas. The text (which made me grin quite a bit) also seems contradictory to the actual rules, with the fluff being all about conflict and friendly fire incidents, and then the rules suddenly talking about the factions being Battle Brothers.

Bonus points for the entertaining posts, by the way.

Thanks. And those incidents weren't necessarily the result of poor discipline: in many cases I could see a Canoness or Confessor sighing aloud, "would no one rid me of this troublesome priest?" and winking and nodding in the direction of the Inquisitor. And after a few millennia of this, the Inquisition decides it really, really needs to be careful about whom it sends to work with Sisters, hence the Battle Brothers sub-list from Codex:GK.

As for proposed rule #2, though, the majority of posters so far have argued it's way too broad and that Sisters would not have "one eye open" for treachery from most sanctioned psykers, just for daemonhosts and other really creepy guys. What so you think?

PS: Thanks for appreciating my attempts to be funny. "In the grim snarkness of the far future, there is only gallows humor."

@ Sister Sydney: I like those little sketches. There should be a whole comedy like this.^^
In terms of figures that can be taken:
HQ:
Inquisitor Karamasov 200p (OH) and Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor 25p (upgradable). The other Named HQs are of the other ordos or Grey Knights themselves.

Henchmen (Elite/Troops--> depends on rule application)
- Arco-flagellants 15p (would work)
- Demon host 10p... (warp, no!)
- Saint 15p....(yep)
- Servitor 10p...(aye)
- Jokaero 35p(filthy xenos) ...(yep)
- Crusader 15p
- Warrior Acolyte 4p (upgradable)
- Mystic 10p (debatable, since he is a psychic teleport homer)
- Psyker 10p (sanctioned or not, debatable )
- Deathcult Assassin 15p (no problems here)

Transports and Heavy support:
Chimera works, but all others have psychic crew and therefore count as psykers mastery lvl. 1

That would indeed be a very limited list, so the question would be how well you could incorporate the Grey Knights themselves... They have the special power Aegis which is rather weak but nice against psykers.

Thanks, that's much more detailed than I can do without access to Codex:GK (I ain't payin' for it, and so far none have "fallen off a truck" anywhere I can find).

And I actually did write a 100+ pages of a movie script for a black comedy/romance set in the 40K verse, complete with casting notes: Cate Blanchett as the Canoness, Summer Glau as sort of a love interest but it gets complicated, Hugh Laurie as Commissar Cain, Alan Rickman as Commissar Abel, and Gwynneth Paltrow as Amberly Vail. Never finished it, though. Folks can PM me for a Word file of what I've got.

I have one, but it's in German, so I have to translate

wrote you a PM

SisterSydney wrote:As for proposed rule #2, though, the majority of posters so far have argued it's way too broad and that Sisters would not have "one eye open" for treachery from most sanctioned psykers, just for daemonhosts and other really creepy guys. What so you think?

Well, of course it's a matter of interpretation - to me, the Sisters have always been very "black and white" in their perception of the world, and when the fluff notes that even your average Guardsman has a hard time accepting proximity to a Sanctioned Psyker, I believe this feeling would be much, much more present in a Battle Sister. They'd be disciplined enough not to off them right away, but as they'd be well versed in what psychic powers can do (at least in theory, though many may have first hand experience from purges and witch hunts or Black Ship duty) and deeply indoctrinated into believing that the Warp only yields Bad Stuff™, I would expect them to think stuff like "let's hope the enemy kills him/her first before they turn", basically thinking it'd only be a matter of time.

In a way, it reminds me of something I recently read in a Shadowrun novel:
"To a cop's mind, all people can be lumped into three categories: cops, civilians, and scumbags. A simple breakdown, with no exceptions. Oh, sure, the 'civilian' classification tends to drift a bit. When a cadet first leaves the Academy, all fired up and eager, naive and green, he might tend to rate civilians as right up there, almost as admirable and worthy of attention as cops. That doesn't last long, though, and soon civilians drop way down the scale to rest only a few notches above scumbags. Some cops - the real hard-bitten and cynical ones - don't even bother making the distinction. If you ain't a cop, you ain't drek, and that's all she wrote."

Don't apply this comparison too closely, though - with the Sisters it'd probably be more like them starting out seeing psykers "rest only a few notches above heretics". Ironically, I would regard it as far more likely that their disgust would ease up over decades of service, if only ever so slightly. When they come out of the Schola, they were indoctrinated into hating mutants, and psykers basically are mutants. Actually interacting with them may cause some to reconsider their low opinion somewhat, although that's something that would probably only apply to veterans whose mind isn't as closed anymore after having been outside the convent walls several times. Other veterans may grow to hate them more, all depending on the experiences they made with the witches they hunt down or guard. Let's just say the Scholae (and the Ecclesiarchy as a whole) probably do a good job at promoting a negative starting point.

Plus, some Sisters can't even get along with ordinary people when there's no one else to point their guns at...

"As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue. We may be fortunate that incumbent Canoness Carmina is a little less zealous than her predecessors, particularly where the Adeptus Astartes are concerned. I recommend you consult Imperial record Ref: Jan/44698822/SMG regarding the attacks on the forward bases of the Angels Vermillion whilst the Order was under the leadership of Canoness Dissenta. With the bulk of our forces committed to Armageddon Prime and Secundus, the deployment of the Order in the Fire Wastes should greatly reduce friction between our forces, especially as Canoness Carmina has in the past deferred to some of the Space Marine commanders who form the defence of the northern continent. [...]
Now that the Third Armageddon War has started in earnest, the Order of the Argent Shroud will be concentrating more upon defeating the Ork invaders than governing our own forces. In spite of the reputation that often precedes them in extended campaigns, the Order is a fine fighting organisation that will provide a solid back bone for the rest of our armies in the Fire Wastes."
- http://web.archive.org/web/20021004212519/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html

These girls are monastic warriors kept in total isolation in their convents, having about zero interaction with normal people, most of whom likely don't shaire their excessively regulated daily life and strict prayer sessions and penitence rites. Have a Guardsman mutter something like "holy gak", they'd nail him to the next cross and burn him as a heretic.