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A Swooping Hawk Exarch dropping down behind my lines with a pin point accurate Vortex Grenade (which had a template and could stay around, move and get bigger) was the bane of my existence back then...

 Arakasi wrote:
A Swooping Hawk Exarch dropping down behind my lines with a pin point accurate Vortex Grenade (which had a template and could stay around, move and get bigger) was the bane of my existence back then...

Solutions to the Vortex Grenade:

1) Don´t use expensive characters.
2) Use Vortex Detonators on your vehicles and protect your important characters in their respective bubbles.


And another thing:
The Avatar was one of the few models along with Greater Daemons which feared the Vortex Grenade the most.


Exarchs:
I think (but I am not sure) that Exarchs could wield signature weapons of the Phoenix Lords. Combined with the perk Fast Shot and you get a nasty character.
Example: Exarch with Jain Zar´s throwing weapon. It could hit all members of an entire squad just like Xena´s chakram.
And when I am not mistaken it had S5 and an ASM of -2...

Yup. The Wargear Cards for the Phoenix Lord toys just read “Eldar Only”, so you can give them to anyone from that Codex that can take Wargear.


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Further thoughts on Exarchs.

With the Autarch model available, I now have greater choice in how to equip one than we had in 2nd Ed.

Granted I can’t mix and match so freely (for instance, I can have a Warp Jump Generator, but as that’s my one Exarch Equipment pick, I can’t then have Mandiblasters or a Banshee Helmet.

But, I could take the Warp Jump Generator (also the option to add two Deathspinners), and expend a Wargear card on The Mask of Jain Zar.

Hmm. Pondering to be pondered.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Someone please talk me out of buying an Eldar army.

Please.

How did we get from this plea for help to this thread? It feels like someone walked into an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and got handed a bottle of liquor....

That post might be why this thread exists!

Also, it’s just feels the right time. Nice bit of history, and some anticipation of a new Codex.


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Also, once I’ve settled on a list, anyone with other iterations of Eldar Codexes, feel free to attempt a transposition into that edition.

I suspect it might be interesting to see how much or little it’s changed over the years.

I am expecting 2nd to 3rd to be the biggest change, simply because the whole mechanics were changed up, and infantry in particular were given significantly lower points costs.

 bullyboy wrote:
Ah, the old BA vs Eldar battle report. Could be a good starting point.

It's an interesting army list - I think you can just treat the Guardian Standard Bearer as +1 Guardian for one of the units, though the squads with lasguns & a meltagun also pose a problem. Not sure about the DR Exarch with a Web of Skulls, either... let me go get my copy of the current Craftworlds book.

...right - we're 5 Guardians short of sort of making this work as a "functioning" list from the 8th ed. book. Making no claim about it being good, but I think we can get it to fit in a detachment, at least.



All Guardians with lasguns can be treated as Guardian Defenders - with 6 of those, a HW platform and the Standard Bearer, we just need one more Guardian to pad the squad out to the minimum. The shuricat squad needs 4 more guys, as I missed the first time that all the squad leaders are set up with pistol/ccw, which means they're Storm Guardians today...

Not sure how you represent the Dark Reaper Exarch's Web of Skulls in the 8th edition book, either - I guess you could use it as one of the special eavy weapons he has access to, but you might be stretching things there...

My eldar collection has changed little since second and third. I did buy and partially paint some new harlequins with their bikes when they came out in plastic though still had twenty metal extras in a bag… never put them on a table however.
If I can ever access those boxes again, I will try to lay them out and see what I have remaining after so many moves. I know that some models were gifted away, some were lost, some never got shipped… lost in the warp.

You know what?

I need my bumps felt. Completely forgot to order Howling Banshees.

Guess it’s a wee trip up to GW in a bit.


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Howling Banshees procured. Just the one box, left lonely on the shelf awaiting its saviour.

And given they’re sold out online, this may be the last box of Howling Banshees in all of Christendom!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So... is it possible to find netlists for 2nd?

I have a binder of lists in the basement.... hold on....

Thread needs more hype.

Let me explain why Howling Banshees are an absolute must in 2nd Ed Eldar.

1. Like all Eldar, they’re pretty fast on their feet, and have a solid Initiative rating.

2. Oh my word those masks.

2 requires some significant, and hopefully not boring explanation.

In 2nd Ed, HTH was essentially a series of Duels. Yes, you charged by squad, but Fisiticuffs was closer to duelling.

To work out combat, you rolled D6 equivalent to your models Attack value. Banshees had A1, plus a Bonus Attack for two close combat weapons (Power Sword and Las Pistol).

You then added your WS (Banshees WS4) to the highest D6 value,

Further bonuses and penalties came from 6’s on the roll, and 1’s on the roll. Memory is hazy, but I think every 6 in excess of the first added +1 to your score. But any 1 was a botch, and subtracted 1 from your score.

So once each fighter’s score had been calculated, whomever had the higher score landed a number of hits on the enemy equal to the difference.

Draws were determined by Initiative score, with the higher landing a single hit.

Given Power Swords were around a flat S5, -3 weapon? Banshees hit pretty hard.

But what about the Banshee Mask, eh? That iconic bit of kit?

Well, dear reader. If my Banshees had charged? Not only could you not Overwatch (I’ll explain that when I can be bothered) but……

But nobody the Banshees had charged could roll their attacks. So your Combat Score was basically your WS.

Oh my word that was nasty to face. On the charge, Banshees could shred pretty much anything with a Toughness value unless it had truly ludicrous WS.

Hence I bought some today!

Right. Some proper evil laugh and moustache twiddling going on in my flat….

From the box of Howling Banshees I procured, I’ve designed an Exarch par excellence, that has a frankly excellent chance of mincing infantry units single handed in both combat and shooting.

Exarch

50 points basic for, by character standards in 2nd Ed, a fairly middling stat line.

M5, WS6, BS6, S4, T4, W2, I8, A2, Ld10.

It can have two Wargear Cards. I’m going with the Silent Death for 25 points, and reserving the other for some kind of force field.

It can also have Exarch equipment. So that’ll be a Banshee Mask for 12 points, and I’ll buy them a Power Sword for 6, and a Laspistol for 1 point.

Last options are Exarch Powers. This is where things can get a bit fun.

As part of this character’s filthy is firmly embedded in the Silent Death? Let’s go with Fast Shot. At 25 points it’s one of the more expensive options. But once I explain the filth, you’ll understand why.

Second one, for now, I’ll go with Fighting Fury for +1A. At 5 points is a cost effective bonus.

Now. The filth.

This is all down to the Silent Death.

Short Range 0-12 with no modifier. Long range 12-24 with -1 modifier. S5, Dam 1, -2 save.

Nominate your first target and roll to hit. If that hits, nominate another target with 2”, and roll to hit them. Rinse a repeat (onto new targets only) until you miss, you’re out of range, or there’s no-one left to hit, then work out the damage.

Pretty saucy, eh? Especially in a game with compulsory 2” squad coherency.

And oh….Fast Show? You bet I’ll be flinging it twice a turn.

I could filthy it up even more, swapping out Fighting Fury (+1A) for Crack Shot….which extends the maximum range of my weapons by 50%……

And for proper proper “oh you thought I wasn’t being restrained before?” filth?

Let’s use that second Wargear card for the Mask of Jain Zar, and swap out the standard Banshee helmet for…..Warp Spider Jump Generator, so I can better ensure this Exarch appears exactly where you least want them to lawn mow you units.

Warp Jump Generator? This might need a wee bit of finesse. I can move up to 18”, ignoring everything intervening at zero risk. But I can push that up to 30”, but begin to incur risk. If I’m jumping 18-24”, then on a 6, the model is lost in the warp and destroyed. 24-30”? That happens on a 5-6.

But the total move can be split between Movement and Shooting Phases. And you only roll to see if you’re destroyed on the part of the move that moves you up a bracket.

So if in my Movement Phase I go 17”? I’m safe. I land where I want and it’s Business Time. Depending on how much of a mess I caused, and the risk of retribution seen, once I’ve thrown the Silent Death (twice!) I can choose to move again. Exactly how far will of course determine the risk to me. I might need to go for a long jump to get squarely out of danger. Not the risk it seems, if standing around like a lemon is gonna see the model all dead anyway.

Oh, and I can use movement in either phase to charge into combat….

And yes. I do imagine the Silent Death sounds like a pinball machine whilst it does it thing.

Not bad for 157 points of utter, utter filth, no?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. Some proper evil laugh and moustache twiddling going on in my flat….

From the box of Howling Banshees I procured, I’ve designed an Exarch par excellence, that has a frankly excellent chance of mincing infantry units single handed in both combat and shooting.

Exarch

50 points basic for, by character standards in 2nd Ed, a fairly middling stat line.

M5, WS6, BS6, S4, T4, W2, I8, A2, Ld10.

It can have two Wargear Cards. I’m going with the Silent Death for 25 points, and reserving the other for some kind of force field.

It can also have Exarch equipment. So that’ll be a Banshee Mask for 12 points, and I’ll buy them a Power Sword for 6, and a Laspistol for 1 point.

Last options are Exarch Powers. This is where things can get a bit fun.

As part of this character’s filthy is firmly embedded in the Silent Death? Let’s go with Fast Shot. At 25 points it’s one of the more expensive options. But once I explain the filth, you’ll understand why.

Second one, for now, I’ll go with Fighting Fury for +1A. At 5 points is a cost effective bonus.

Now. The filth.

This is all down to the Silent Death.

Short Range 0-12 with no modifier. Long range 12-24 with -1 modifier. S5, Dam 1, -2 save.

Nominate your first target and roll to hit. If that hits, nominate another target with 2”, and roll to hit them. Rinse a repeat (onto new targets only) until you miss, you’re out of range, or there’s no-one left to hit, then work out the damage.

Pretty saucy, eh? Especially in a game with compulsory 2” squad coherency.

And oh….Fast Show? You bet I’ll be flinging it twice a turn.

I could filthy it up even more, swapping out Fighting Fury (+1A) for Crack Shot….which extends the maximum range of my weapons by 50%……

And for proper proper “oh you thought I wasn’t being restrained before?” filth?

Let’s use that second Wargear card for the Mask of Jain Zar, and swap out the standard Banshee helmet for…..Warp Spider Jump Generator, so I can better ensure this Exarch appears exactly where you least want them to lawn mow you units.

Warp Jump Generator? This might need a wee bit of finesse. I can move up to 18”, ignoring everything intervening at zero risk. But I can push that up to 30”, but begin to incur risk. If I’m jumping 18-24”, then on a 6, the model is lost in the warp and destroyed. 24-30”? That happens on a 5-6.

But the total move can be split between Movement and Shooting Phases. And you only roll to see if you’re destroyed on the part of the move that moves you up a bracket.

So if in my Movement Phase I go 17”? I’m safe. I land where I want and it’s Business Time. Depending on how much of a mess I caused, and the risk of retribution seen, once I’ve thrown the Silent Death (twice!) I can choose to move again. Exactly how far will of course determine the risk to me. I might need to go for a long jump to get squarely out of danger. Not the risk it seems, if standing around like a lemon is gonna see the model all dead anyway.

Oh, and I can use movement in either phase to charge into combat….

And yes. I do imagine the Silent Death sounds like a pinball machine whilst it does it thing.

Not bad for 157 points of utter, utter filth, no?

Yes, that was the weapon I was referring to.

That Exarch needs only to fear heavy weapons on Overwatch to ruin his/her day otherwise he/she WILL obliterate entire squads. Been there, done that!
Personally I would specialize entirely on ranged combat with that model. Leave mudwrestling with the Mon-Keigh to the Avatar or Striking Scorpions.

The best thing about the unconventional tech/weapons (mostly Tyranids, Eldar & Orks) in 2nd was the fact that these items got an entire page to describe their effects. It made them unique/special and thus...ALIEN! Gasp! A trait sadly lost in all following editions.

I know this was a WHFB rule, but I cannot remember for 40K.

But lone character models, -1 to hit them native?

If so, I could add Stealthy as an Exarch Power to make that a minimum of -2?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know this was a WHFB rule, but I cannot remember for 40K.

But lone character models, -1 to hit them native?

If so, I could add Stealthy as an Exarch Power to make that a minimum of -2?

I just checked the Battle Bible. There is no to hit penalty for lone characters. Yes, Stealthy would be a very good choice (-1 to hit at short and -2 to hit at long range).

There is a penalty for hitting fast moving troops though. You need to check what the Warp Jump Generator (WJG) says in that regard. I know for sure that Imperial Jump Packs transport their passengers pretty lazily through the air and as a consequence no to hit penalty applies. However the WJG is a teleportation device and on a hunch I would say a penalty doesn´t occur in that case but to be sure you need to check the rules again.

Also bear in mind that most heavy weapons from medium to advanced factions (Imperium and Eldar) come by default with targeters to mitigate to hit modifiers. And the Dreadnought is piloted by a hero of the Imperium (BS 6) which also comes by default with targeters to heavy weapons...Dreadnoughts were scary as hell back in the day and the best way to handle them was to assign one character to throw a haywire grenade at them.

Hmm.

I mean, I don’t mind for one second the Exarch being somewhat disposable. So long as they make a mess and cause a frustrating distraction, I figure they’re pulling their weight.

Plus, if I jump into combat, I can jump out again in my next turn for no penalty. And if there’s nobody useful to charge? I’ll attempt to avoid certain death by making an extended WPJG leap to a safer position. Sure, I might lose the model, but the chances are far less than being shot or duffed up by a Dreadnought!

Dreadnoughts can go play with my Dreadnought (Wraithlord) and the two War Walkers I’m hoping to field.

Or, if I’m feeling really saucy? Better odds are to charge the Dreadnought itself. Mask of Jain Zar means it doesn’t roll attack dice first round, or in the second round on a 4+. Pull off the double round (and I will almost certainly win the fights), then third round I’m just not there anymore, and I’ve silenced the Dreadnought for at least one enemy turn.

Of course, that rather depends on who else is lurking, as even throwing in basic infantry to that fight would ruin my chances, as they’d provide that vital +1 to the Dreadnought for each fight before it gets to Not Swing, which depending on their number could see me flattened any how.

Still, that’s a bunch of options to escape retribution and irritate my opponent!

157 isn't too bad for a character back then, so using it as a risky suicide lawnmower isn't a bad investment in, say a 2000 point list.

Indeed, though for historical point context, probably worth pointing out your basic, un-upgraded Space Marine was a fairly hefty 30 points.

Given they were T4, so wounded on 3+, with a 3+ save reduced to 5+ a single chuck would have to go some to kill them all, I can still do some decent damage, even if it’s just a combat squad of 5 about to lacerated.

So the 157 is a bit of a bargain for the killing potential, even if I do blink out of existence on the way back to safety.

I feel in a game setting, I’d get away with it’s shenanigans Scot free precisely once against a given opponent. However, the psychological impact and sheer potential board control is still going to be worth it.

The model gets even more deadly once we start stacking it’s potential with things like Doom (which I think meant anyone rolling to wound the target could re-roll? Will confirm if no-one else can once Dark Millenium arrives) and various other things.

But just a rogue ‘where’s it gonna land?’ threat has a value unto itself.


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And if I fancy my chances on a long initial jump, they’ll be handy for digging other units out should the enemy attack a particular part of the battlefield in force. Not gonna delete the attacker single handed I’d expect to be fair. But still a handy option to have regardless.

That’s me toys arrived! And props to Element games. The Warp Spiders arrived without shrink wrap. And signs the box had been opened…

Sounds suspish….but given all five models are pristine casts in Finecast? I’m pretty sure Element we’re just doing some QA. Which I very much appreciate.

Guess I’ll be getting busy with the glue and clippers tonight. After I’ve driven to the next town over to collect the rules Royal Mail didn’t even attempt to bother to deliver yesterday…

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Sounds suspish….but given all five models are pristine casts in Finecast?

My condolences.

I’m pretty sure Element we’re just doing some QA.

Somebody has to.

I don’t mind Finecast when it’s not all bubbly and horrible. Would still prefer plastic, but it is what it is.


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OK doke. Models I can put into a list as my collection currently stands.

Characters

4 x Exarchs. One will be 157 points because she’s just too 2nd Ed Beardy not to include.

I will need a Farseer though. But that’s for another month.

Squads

2 x 3 strong Jetbike Guardians. Each squad will have a Shuriken Shrieker Cannon upgrade. 98 points each (65 of which come from Support

2 x 4 Dire Avengers. 88 points per squad

4 Howling Banshees. 108 points

4 Warp Spiders. 164 points.

That’s 491 points total. So 9 points short of my minimum 500. Will be adding a unit of Guardians on foot when the new ones are out, and some Dark Reapers. Also some Wraithguard. But like the Farseer, that’s for another month.

Support

Here I can spend a maximum of 1,000 points.

Carrying over from Troops, the first deduction is of course the Jetbikes, coming in at 130 points.

1 x Dreadnought. Upgraded to have a Lascannon. 205 points

2 x D-Cannon on Anti-Grav Platform. 55 points each (I can only field one per Guardian Squad, but the Jetbike units absolutely count).

2 x War Walker. Gonna have to go with the classic Las-Cannon and Scatter Laser. 150 points each.

So my Support weighs in at 745 points.

This means that, without really trying all that hard, I’ve got 1,245 points spent before I really think about Characters.

And believe me….I can happily spend the remaining 755 on Characters, no problemo.

The 4 Exarchs came with their squad boxes, so I feel no particular urge to field all four. In fact, I’ll make the Dire Avenger Squad 9 strong - this drops an Exarch and tips me over the 25% minimum spend on Squads. Which is nice.

Farseer (which is compulsory, unless I’m fielding an Avatar) is 170 points. And he can take up to 3 Wargear Cards. However, I’m not terribly convinced he’d need any. Will await Dark Millenium and it’s cards before deciding.


So in terms of roughly planned Characters, I’ve 170 for the Farseer and 157 for the Blender Exarch Of Beard. 745-327, and I’ve 418 left to spend.

Sorry. Knock 22 points off, to pay for that 9th Dire Avenger.

396 left to go, and two potential Exarchs to purchase and equip.

Not bad for a barely planned “what do I like the look of” purchase!

And time for a resurrection worthy of Ynnead itself. Oh yes, I’m going back to this project…and a bit further.

See, never mind 2nd Edition. To start? I’m going all the way back to Rogue Trader, and 1991’s Compilation, which includes the first recognisable Eldar Army List.

As you’ll see from the attached piccies, the starting list I have to play with is super restrictive. Not in how I build my army, but in just what is open to me. You may note the distinct lack of War Walker and Dreadnought/Wraithlord, and of course Wraithguard. The did exist in Rogue Trader, but I’ll have the rules for them elsewhere.

But for now, and for a proper temporal investigation, I’m going to start with 1,500 points from this list. Jetbikes do exist, but as a Guardian upgrade. So I should be able to take the models I have and crack on straight away!

Once settled on an army list, I’ll report back on painting progression. Oh, and I do need to buy an Avatar….




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Oh ipad photos. Why you do this to me? Sorry for Wonko-vision.

If you're going all the way back to RT?
Make sure you get yourself a proper Avatar for the time. The little tiny one on the 20mm base.

And I think one of the RT era books had vehicle design guidelines.
If I'm right you could design a Falcon & a Wave Serpent (both have rules in 2nd+).

BTW, your 2e+ Eldar project? Would fit nicely with my own SW.
Their only evolution since 2e has been purely cosmetic - bitz/bases + current drop pod model (instead of that horrid lump of 2e Armourcast resin)

Nah, sticking to modern models! Just easier and more reliable to get hold of. Plus I’m very unlikely to play games under RT and 2nd Ed rules. Though I absolutely could, such is my growing collection!

This is purely a passion project which I figured might entertain the troops for bit. All are welcome to follow suit. Might make for an interesting collection of articles.

Work done for the day, I need to go out to get a lightbulb, maybe some snacks, and probably call in for a few well deserved ales at my local.

I’ll take the Compilation with me, and begin plotting out my Rogue Trader era army list. Pretty sure I’ve found a way to cheese Guardians - the reason why I need to cheese it will become apparent….

And as we head into the darker months of the year, and I get to once again wrestle with SAD, I’m resurrecting this project to give me more to do.

Had a busy day of building models, only to be mildly thwarted by the Rogue Trade Army List.

Thwarted how, I hear you probably not ask?

Thwarted by unit sizes and list restrictions, as ever.

See, in the modern day, Exarchs are part of their squad. But, in Rogue Trader? Squads are 5 man, and Exarchs are a separate choice.

Barring my Dark Reapers, which come in units of 3? My other Aspect Squads now aren’t big enough, because I built each squad to have an Exarch. Oh, cruel uncaring fate! How you fart on the cornflakes of my project!

Ooop, forgot the group pic!


I’ve also run into a very slight problem with the Guardians. See, back then their standard squad was 5 man, for 60 points, with Lasguns. Whilst I can upgrade to Shuriken Catapults (which I have to for WYSIWYG)? No more than half my Guardian squads can be upgraded in such a way.

Now, Guardians upgraded to Jetbikes? They don’t count as adding to that restriction, but against must be 5 strong. So rather than two squadrons of 3? I’m stuck on 1 squadron of 5.

This leaves me something of a quandary with my remaining Guardian box, which is yet to built.

In theory, I could make a 5 man Shuriken squad, and a 5 man Close Combat squad, allowing me to stick to the exclusion.

But right now, thanks to the Aspect Warrior situation, and a total lack of desire to buy another box each of Dire Avengers and Bumshees? Looks like I’ll need to nix a Rogue Trader list, and pile back into 2nd Ed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But right now, thanks to the Aspect Warrior situation, and a total lack of desire to buy another box each of Dire Avengers and Bumshees? Looks like I’ll need to nix a Rogue Trader list, and pile back into 2nd Ed.

Well, if you want to do anything with that warp spider then you have to go 2nd anyway.

Indeed. He’s got mates waiting to be de-sprued and cleaned up.

Only reason I bought them was because how utterly revolting they were in 2nd Ed!

Do you have any spare Guardians? Gin up a tail end Charlie for each squad, that just happens to be mostly out of shot for any pictures, and somehow is always the first to die

Bonus points for some kind of red torso motif.

I kind of do?

If I do get more Aspect Warriors to bump up the numbers, I can revisit Rogue Trader.

And as the Weapon Platforms were a separate unit, each box generates three spare. However…I could convert those into Musicians and Banner Bearers, as those are added to the squad, making them 7 strong. Which were also part of the weirdness of Rogue Trader.

But. Being realistic. Whilst it possible I’ll play 2nd Ed someday? I’m never going to play Rogue Trader, because even with a copy of every published book, the game was a confusing hodge podge of confusing rules!

Hold on, just got what you were saying. Use the spare Guardians as stand in Aspects. That could work i suppose.


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Also I forgot I’ve already got a second box of Dire Avengers. Sadly they came two bases short, and being the diddy bases, I may need to raid my Necromunda kits for replacements.

Yeah, check this thread out from the Showcase board. With an aspect-adjacent colour scheme you should be able to hide a guardian in a squad relatively easily.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/806642.page