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Demogerg wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I'm really hoping there's some sort of hitch to that Maw power. Talk about broken. Dear Jesus. Chain Lightning isn't exactly the most balanced thing I've seen, either. Give SW Librarians 5-6 (on average) autocannons that are assault instead of heavy? Why not? it's like having 2 dakka Predators in one model that can't be directly shot at for half the cost. That seems fair, right?

Native Fenrisians are Illiterate, Thus Space Wolves do not have Librarians, they have Rune Priests.

All Librarians are Psykers, not all Psykers are Librarians.

Semantics, it makes me a happy troll.

I shall out-troll you!
Native Fenrisans are not as a rule illiterate. While it is true they mainly pass their sagas down by oral tradition, they do have Runes and such to mark items and placenames. I would assume their Elders know a thing or two about it, especially considering what bawls it takes to survive past 10-12 fenrisan years
There is a part in one of the Space Wolf books where an Inquisitor asks Ragnar to translate some machine printed Fenrisan Runes, which I am guessing that even if he learnt how to read after become a Blood Claw, there must have been an runeset used by the Native Fenrisans..

The top tourney SW lists will run at least two Rune Priests with the line of death and chain lightning powers. I have a sneaky suspiscion that this army is a lord delivery system.

I heard that the HQ choices have all got uber stats that warrant their insane price tags. Well we have the stats for Bjorn - which is crazy - and Canis is an anti infantry monster - i've tested him and he can get rid of single wound infantry in combat better than anyone else. If you are single wound infantry and are not hitting first, just stay away.

This is Codex Heroes of the Imperium and if the rest of the characters are as broken as Canis...

We're going to need a bigger gun.

How about using thunder cats as a theme?

Already thought about Thundercats, I wasn't a fan TBH. He-Man had back up in the form of Eternian Palace Guard. It makes them more viable than Thundercats, who only had the Burbles as back up and they were just teddy bears.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I'm really hoping there's some sort of hitch to that Maw power. Talk about broken. Dear Jesus. Chain Lightning isn't exactly the most balanced thing I've seen, either. Give SW Librarians 5-6 (on average) autocannons that are assault instead of heavy? Why not? it's like having 2 dakka Predators in one model that can't be directly shot at for half the cost. That seems fair, right?

Native Fenrisians are Illiterate, Thus Space Wolves do not have Librarians, they have Rune Priests.

All Librarians are Psykers, not all Psykers are Librarians.

Semantics, it makes me a happy troll.

I shall out-troll you!
Native Fenrisans are not as a rule illiterate. While it is true they mainly pass their sagas down by oral tradition, they do have Runes and such to mark items and placenames. I would assume their Elders know a thing or two about it, especially considering what bawls it takes to survive past 10-12 fenrisan years
There is a part in one of the Space Wolf books where an Inquisitor asks Ragnar to translate some machine printed Fenrisan Runes, which I am guessing that even if he learnt how to read after become a Blood Claw, there must have been an runeset used by the Native Fenrisans..

The book you are refering to is the first book in the Ragnar series, which although is full of conflicting fluff (and thus the the whole can be assumed as non canonical) the point at which you are refering to is After Ragnar has been taught how to read by the ancient teaching-machines. Also, it was written using imperial lettering in the fenrisian tongue, as Ragnar at first did not understand why the Inquisitor could not understand it. The Runes themselves are only learned by the Eldars on Fenris, (save for members of the Space Wolves) and even then, vary from tribe to tribe. youths may learn what a few specific runes mean, but they (generally speaking) do not fully understand the runic script.

Demogerg wrote:The book you are refering to is the first book in the Ragnar series, which although is full of conflicting fluff (and thus the the whole can be assumed as non canonical) the point at which you are refering to is After Ragnar has been taught how to read by the ancient teaching-machines.

Oh I agree it is full of contradictory stuff, the whole Series is (Especially Tyranids with Endoskeletons, wtf?) but it still doesn't explain that there are Runes in the first place. I highly doubt the Space Wolves invented them out of thin air. They must have been used by the Fenrisans pre-Russ and would I assume still be used in a limited manner.

Redbeard:

Considering almost everyone is meching up these days, maybe the maw power wont be as strong as it otherwise could be?

Of course, Tyranids and Necrons don't have much choice

Mechrons??? Someone I know keeps saying that with 3 Monolith it's possible.

I don't understand how he thinks this works.

Necrons, Tyranids and Orks are going to feel the pain more than the other armies. Plague Marines at initiative 3 are going to feel it too.

I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

have we gotten a direct word for word on the ruling for the MAW power? does it just say removed on a fail, or does it say instant death (which would help the nids) or is it auto wound with no saves?

Korthu wrote:I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

Njarl isnt a rune priest, he is a Njarl

Daemons have a hard time mechanizing too. Tau and Eldar skimmers are overpriced compared to the transports that other armies have, so they're already at a disadvantage if they mech up too.

Besides, saying 'everyone is meching up' is a bit of a misnomer. At some point, the guys get out of the transports (and are actually bunched up pretty nicely when they do).

I just think it's a very poorly conceived power. There are existing parallels (turn to squig/spawn powers), but they're far more significantly limited in terms of range (6" for the spawn-you powers), and effectiveness (the only things you can spawn 2/3rds of the time are ratlings/snots, zoggy's power only succeeds 40% of the time and is limited to ICs), and only hit one model at a time.

If the maw power could kill a carnifex easily, but had these other limits, it would be ok. As it stands, it's a complete no-brainer that wins you certain matchups without trying, while still being faily useful in the other matchups.

Tau crisis suits and broadsides are in the same boat - I2, so they're dead 2/3rds of the time, and with 40mm bases and a coherency requirement, it's not going to be hard to zap a bunch of them either.

How?

Against a competent opponent, at least. If the other guy lines up his valuable models perpendicular to the RP (which is pretty much going to be "playing against Space Wolves 101" now), to hit two models the RP is going to have to move, at minimum, more than the starting distance between the RP and the unit in question.

The RP can move 12" if given a bike or a jump pack.

So, you have to be under 12" to get two models from the same unit, if moved intelligently. At under 12", the SW player's best option is more likely to be just charging you straight up -- if your Crisis Suits are under 12" away from Space Wolves in general, you have more problems than a psychic power, even if it is a really strong psychic power.

Maw may be in league with Lash as the best psychic power in the game (but I'll wait to see an exact reading of it first, a simple as-of-yet-non-publicized limitation like "must not have moved in movement phase" or such would tone it down drastically), but these worst cases (multiple Crisis Suits a turn!) are really only going to show up against bad players anyway, and overpowered is irrelevant if one or both players involved doesn't know how to play the game in the first place.

That sounds like a very short-sighted solution. Sure, just keep your models perpendicular to that unit that's moving around at 12" per turn. No problem!

You don't necessarily have to be within 12" to get 2 models. The Rune Priest still has a 24" range when trying to hit 2+ models, you know. Realistically, the 2-hit threat range is something like a 43" line segment centered between the two models in question. One unit might not be that big of a problem to keep protected, but if you have a few things to move around, you're probably going to be screwed.

Furthermore, that argument is only applicable to small units, even if you assume it works. Are you planning on keeping your Nob biker squad perpendicular to the RP, too? Carnifexes are an army of one. Ditto Necron lords. Bad players most certainly are not the only ones who'd be screwed by this power if it works as reported.

And it's not just a move. You forget that he can pod in anywhere. I suppose you could keep your whole army in reserve, and hope that you can get to the objectives without exposing themselves to this power too much. Or maybe deploy along the board edge, to limit what he can do (but again, you have to move to the objectives at some point).

Or perhaps deploy any unit of more than 2 models into triangles or other shapes to limit how many a single line can be drawn through, and just accept that at least two will be hit.

The larger your bases are, the harder it is to avoid while maintaining coherency too. Nob bikers mounted on 60mm bases are in a much worse position than those on bike bases. Bloodcrushers and Beasts of Nurgle are going to have a harder time. (beasts especially with their lower initiative.)

Sure, there are steps that a competent player can take to minimize the damage that can be done, but assume that the space wolf player is at least as intelligent in running it.

Redbeard wrote:Sure, there are steps that a competent player can take to minimize the damage that can be done, but assume that the space wolf player is at least as intelligent in running it.

And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

I just don't see the power as game-breaking. It's good, yes. It's very good. It kills 'fexes better than anything in the game, and is really strong against Necrons -- further weakening two lists that already have trouble in the 5e metagame due to not being terribly good against mechanized lists. If anything, it's actively weak against mech, the dominant form of 5e lists.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

*shrug*

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Njal is One Figure=345 pts
He cost almost as much as a Long Fang Pack
5 Long Fangs =75 points
5 Plasma-Cannons=100 Points
1 Raizorback with Twin-Linked Las Cannons=80 points
Total=255 points
That is 5 S7 AP2 Heavy Blast-1 and 1 S9 AP-2 [TL] attacks that hit on a 3+ with 50%+ more range

Which inflicts the most damage?

For the Points give me the Long Fangs

3d6 s7 attacks with unlimited range is far more tactical than a 24" instant kill button.. They are both very good powers but the ability to kill units that hide in corners is quite amazing

Most of those units are small 5 man weapon teams or some kind of support unit

Anpu42 wrote:Njal is One Figure=345 pts
He cost almost as much as a Long Fang Pack
5 Long Fangs =75 points
5 Plasma-Cannons=100 Points
1 Raizorback with Twin-Linked Las Cannons=80 points
Total=255 points
That is 5 S7 AP2 Heavy Blast-1 and 1 S9 AP-2 [TL] attacks that hit on a 3+ with 50%+ more range

Which inflicts the most damage?

For the Points give me the Long Fangs

Njal is 270 in Terminator armor, and those Fangs need a pack leader for a total of 6 models at 90 points not 75.

I'm finding that I probably won't be taking any of the special characters. In fact for my HQ's I'll probably be running a rune priest and wolf priest. Both almost naked. They will boost my units just enough but it will still leave me with a ton of points to get models on the table.

Lowinor wrote:
And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

Well, from what I've read so far, it disallows all saves, so it is better against anything with inv. saves or in cover. It doesn't deal wounds, so it is better against anything with multiple wounds and T6+ or Eternal Warrior. And, since a priest can join a squad, it is considerably more survivable than a vindicator.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

Are you claiming that this power is actually well-designed because it doesn't hurt already powerful lists, while hosing already weak lists? That's a strange argument.


It has nothing to do with naive placement, it has to do with how geometry works. If I can pick two of your models, I can draw a line connecting them. Once I've done that, it's trivial to get a model with a bike or a drop-pod into a position on that line.

There used to be a marine power that did the 'draw a line' thing, inflicting hits on everything on a line that started at the librarian and went to the table edge. It was not easy to avoid getting multiple units hit, even knowing that the librarian had it and where he might go the next turn. If you want to have your units in a position to mutually support each other, they necessarily need to be somewhat close together. In the case of a deep-strike formation of 7 models, you can get 5 hits on a straight line from a large number of positions on the board.

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Orks are not an old codex. Daemons are not an old codex. Marines will barely notice Maw. I think most non-marine armies will suffer for it. They're coincidentally the ones that don't have psychic defenses either.

The only one I'd take is Canis. He is point for point the most effective infantry killer in the codex, if not, the entire game.

I suggest testing him against single wound infantry. The only ones I'm having trouble against are the ones that strike first - Banshees and Stealers mainly and TH/SS Terminators are hard to kill too, although they strike last, it's the damned SS that's the problem.
I'm a little skeptical however on his points cost. At 185 he's too aggressively coated. This guy can take out 10 marines at the same points cost with good rolls. Also I don't think he has an invulnerable save which is not good. If he does have one OMG!!!

Redbeard wrote:

Lowinor wrote:
And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

Well, from what I've read so far, it disallows all saves, so it is better against anything with inv. saves or in cover. It doesn't deal wounds, so it is better against anything with multiple wounds and T6+ or Eternal Warrior. And, since a priest can join a squad, it is considerably more survivable than a vindicator.

Well, you still do get a save -- it's just based on your initiative as opposed to armor or invulnerable. A TH/SS terminator gets basically the same "save" against either attack, a 3+ invulnerable or a 4-or-under check. A tactical marine is more survivable against Maw than the Vindy cannon. Of course, there are a lot of big gribblies that will hate Maw a lot more (Carnifexes especially), but on the whole, it seems to be a wash with a Vindy cannon.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

Are you claiming that this power is actually well-designed because it doesn't hurt already powerful lists, while hosing already weak lists? That's a strange argument.

I'm claiming that its actual impact on the game will be less than has been asserted by various posters here because, among other things, the single best target for the power is in a list that's already disadvantaged against mechanized marines. Furthermore, said unit is pretty likely to get a redesign in the near future, as its in the (theoretical) next codex redone.

It has nothing to do with naive placement, it has to do with how geometry works. If I can pick two of your models, I can draw a line connecting them. Once I've done that, it's trivial to get a model with a bike or a drop-pod into a position on that line.

"Trivial" overstates it.

Either:

a) You come down in a pod, have a good opportunity to lay down a line, kill a couple of high priority targets, and are then a 6"/6" model that was just close to dangerous targets

b) You're on a bike, so you don't get the good opportunity to place yourself anywhere, and have to deal with fairly easy defensive placement

Two hit two models that are in a line perpendicular to the shortest path to them, you have to move at least as much as that distance to hit both of them. When you're out of the pod and moving 6", you're not going to get particularly many juicy shots off. Even at 12", you'll be in a position where to get a two-high-priority target shot you could have charged them anyway (or be charged by them in the next turn).

And then, they still get that initiative save. Against a normal marine, the power is barely deadlier than a Vulkan-boosted Heavy Flamer (31% for the Maw, 30% for the Vulkan HF). And that's assuming there's no Psychic Hood in range. Or assorted Eldar rune trickery.

There used to be a marine power that did the 'draw a line' thing, inflicting hits on everything on a line that started at the librarian and went to the table edge. It was not easy to avoid getting multiple units hit, even knowing that the librarian had it and where he might go the next turn. If you want to have your units in a position to mutually support each other, they necessarily need to be somewhat close together. In the case of a deep-strike formation of 7 models, you can get 5 hits on a straight line from a large number of positions on the board.

And it worked off of units hit, not individual models. And I always thought it was overrated anyway. Maw is clearly superior against most non-horde targets anyway.

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Orks are not an old codex. Daemons are not an old codex. Marines will barely notice Maw. I think most non-marine armies will suffer for it. They're coincidentally the ones that don't have psychic defenses either.

Considering Orks get a better save against Maw than their armor save, I'm really not sure how scared they're going to be of it.

Lowinor wrote:
Well, you still do get a save -- it's just based on your initiative as opposed to armor or invulnerable. A TH/SS terminator gets basically the same "save" against either attack, a 3+ invulnerable or a 4-or-under check. A tactical marine is more survivable against Maw than the Vindy cannon. Of course, there are a lot of big gribblies that will hate Maw a lot more (Carnifexes especially), but on the whole, it seems to be a wash with a Vindy cannon.

But why remove two of the three steps in attacking? No roll to hit, no roll to wound (which, regardless of S v T, will fail 1 in 6 times), and go straight to an Init test? There are several armies who don't have I as high as 4. Sucks for them, for a power that travels 24", hitting ALL models along the line. 24" is a long way on a 6x4 board.

Lowinor wrote:
I'm claiming that its actual impact on the game will be less than has been asserted by various posters here because, among other things, the single best target for the power is in a list that's already disadvantaged against mechanized marines. Furthermore, said unit is pretty likely to get a redesign in the near future, as its in the (theoretical) next codex redone.

So, GW goes through the trouble of handing out Eternal Warrior, since Instant Death has become popular (to protect multi-wound creatures), and then, in one swipe, creates a power that 'removes models' a la the 3rd edition DH force weapon, ignoring Eternal Warrior and Synapse. {shakes head}. Sure, Nids are being redone, but Synapse already ignored ID, what now? You really expect GW to remember to change synapse to "ignores ID and any effect that removes models from the table"? That gives them too much credit.

I'm sure it won't be all that bad overall, considering the low model count in SW armies, but any single power that can kill multiple multi-wound creatures (cause creatures with more than 1 wound have a lot going for them), especially high T, high W, potentially regenerating creatures is pretty lame. With a capital L. Requires a lot of tactics, does that power. Sigh.

I really want to like this book. The cinematic feel was going in the right direction, but some of the specifics - this power, and that wolf character with the statis bomb heart (how many space wolves have stasis bombs in their chests nowadays?) just make me cringe.

I'll wait and see how it plays out once the book hits.

Two hit two models that are in a line perpendicular to the shortest path to them, you have to move at least as much as that distance to hit both of them. When you're out of the pod and moving 6", you're not going to get particularly many juicy shots off. Even at 12", you'll be in a position where to get a two-high-priority target shot you could have charged them anyway (or be charged by them in the next turn).

Again, you're assuming that everything in the opposing army is going to be perpendicular to the RP. That just plain isn't going to happen, and it really isn't going to happen if you have Njal and a RP around (assuming you can do that - not sure if that'd be a HQ slot duplication). Hardly anything comes in units of 2, and that's the only unit size worth trying to preserve as you suggest. Everything else probably won't be able to move far enough to pull that maneuver off.

By the way, I think we've established that this power is merely useful against marines - not deadly or broken. It's everything else that has to worry about getting at least 1 important target popped each turn.

Gwar! wrote:It's because everyone who is a real Space Wolf Player (i.e. the ones who kept using the "crap" codex) have 4 or 5 HQ Choices as we needed 3 or 4 in a decent sized game.

I've had 7 for the past 8 years My favorite combination for a 2000 point game is Ragar, Ven. Dred. and Rune Priest. I think thats definitely what I'm going to run right away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...does this line of site psychic power take down entire units or just models it touches?

Just the people it directly passes thru

JD21290 wrote:

Actually, my goal is to first get my hands on an old Njarl to go with my Old Bjorn and Old Ragnar and Drop Pod in as many Grey Hunters as I can

old Njarl - fine
old bjorn - theres a new one?
old ragnar - only choice mate, no new one to be released (still a great model though)

Looking through the new product catalogue saddened me, we have some good models that do not need to be re-released (Logan, Rune Priest) and even a very cool Bjorn which I am still trying to get off of ebay, if only to run as a ven.

The Ragnar model though.. boy is that thing ugly. He's almost as bad as the dwarfed power armour wolf guard blisters (the comparatively large plastic arm that they come with makes me wonder what they have been getting up to in their spare time...). Why was there no new model in this department? Surely he will be a fairly commonly run HQ choice

Ragnar is an origional character, much like ezekiel, azmodai, abbadon, kharn, dante, corbulo, mephiston (list goes on for a while)

It seems that they are happy with these models and dont want to alter them.

allthough, i would say that ragnar is a very easy model to re-make from scratch, due to lack of any real refining details.
Characters like dante would require tons of GS and spare time to re-make, due to the complex nature and his ornate armour.

Ragnar is simply a decorated space pup with some old wargear and pelts.
with the new box you could easily much a much better one, and make him look alot more imposing

Korthu wrote:I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

Your HQ's have to be equiped differently. You can have up to 4 Rune Priests in your army, 2 choices per slot.