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Maelstrom808 wrote:As are the majority of the Tyranid complaints. They can still compete (as can Chaos), but GW has done nothing but poo on them since the release of the codex.

Curse my signature for not being big enough to hold more than two full quotes.


Oh hello, new page!

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

I hate to say it: but you really don't. There's complaints from the Chaos players, but you have to be blind to not know that those are justified.

As are the majority of the Tyranid complaints. They can still compete (as can Chaos), but GW has done nothing but poo on them since the release of the codex.

Yes and no. The majority of the Tyranid complaints can be boiled down to "They changed our playstyle, nerfed Carnifexes(which we all had tons of) and we're missing models from the army book!".
Changed playstyle? That's not really something to complain about.
Nerfed Carnifexes was going to happen. There was no chance they would be left the same.
Missing models is a valid complaint.

I'd say both Tyranid and Chaos complaints are warranted to a limited extent (the Chaos more warranted).

But nonetheless, how about a we stick to the topic at hand?

Yes.

Necron Transports will be portals firing C'Tan at people.

MARK MY WORDS!

Put it down to dealing with people. You've given them some information, about something they care about, but not enough. It's understandable that you can't give them more without outing sources and such, but with what was given it indicates changes that were unexpected, and in several cases, a downgrade. It wouldn't be so bad if there were more information to put it all in perspective, but there isn't. Unfortunately a lot of the people posting have (often) a significant amount of time, money, and effort invested in the models, the fluff, and the hobby, and are therefor a bit more prone to reaction to tidbits of information in a vacuum. WBB going to 5+++ sounds bad, and even with the additional reroll from other sources, it sounds worse than current. There may or may not be other mitigating factors included, but since we can't currently know about them, the only information, the change to 5+++ from 4+++, sounds really bad.

People don't like change too much, but can deal with it well enough so long as there is either a gradual change, or the change can be well and truly understood and integrated, it'll be accepted more fully over time. Unfortunately, the nature of putting out rumors (without all the information because you don't have it all, don't have the most current form of whats coming, or need to protect your sources) is more akin, and here I quote dogbert, to "A paradigm shifting without a clutch." It's going to ruffle feathers. Unfortunately it being the internet, a pained look or an uneasy feeling turns into a rant about the sky falling. It's just people trying to deal with change in their own way.

Kanluwen wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

I hate to say it: but you really don't. There's complaints from the Chaos players, but you have to be blind to not know that those are justified.

Are you talking about how they nerfed the Chaos Legions feel of the CSM codex from '03(3... 3.5 I've heard it called)? If that's the case then yes they did gut the heart and soul out of that one in the newest book.

Much of the fluff was disregarded in the current codex, making it to where it's mostly the Black Legion/Red Corsairs codex. It also shelved many models as they can no longer be used except in Apocalypse games.

On the other hand, the current codex is easier to understand and use, but I still prefer the older one simply from a fluff standpoint... and it allowed for more diversity from one Chaos army to the next.

As far as the Necrons go, it's the very lack of diversity in the model range that has kept me from playing/collecting them.

I think a mobile portal would work.

Kind of like the Webway portal that DE have... Only mobile and reentrant.

Give it 14 on the armor scale and allow 'crons within say 6" or 12" of one of them have the ability to teleport to another one on the field, or through a monolith.

If you add a gun on it, then I'd be all over that thing.

Kanluwen wrote:Yes and no. The majority of the Tyranid complaints can be boiled down to "They changed our playstyle, nerfed Carnifexes(which we all had tons of) and we're missing models from the army book!".
Changed playstyle? That's not really something to complain about.
Nerfed Carnifexes was going to happen. There was no chance they would be left the same.
Missing models is a valid complaint.

I disagree. You can summarize the majority of Tyranid player's constructive criticism on various old rumor, battle reports, tactic, and army list threads as follows:

We don't have enough cheap ranged anti-tank options in our codex - Codex

Blowing up transports in CC is in most cases a lose-lose situation - 5th edition

Combat resolution and excessive fearless wounds - 5th Edition

TMC are more expensive and less survivable that thier vehicle counter-parts - Codex/5th Edition

Lack of multi-wound shinanigans in a codex full of multi-wound units - Codex

Where's the Tervigon/Parosite/Prime? - Product Availablilty

Metal Boxes immune to SITW and IC can't jump in a Spod Tyranid FAQ Rulings - FAQ

The first three complaints are ones that my fellow necron players share at home in regards to their current codex (though instead of fearless wounds it would be the leadership modifiers). Based on these rumors:

11) In general Necrons have a lot more long ranged fire support. There is also a new weapon type called Tesla weapons. These weapons, on a roll of '6' to hit automatically cause two more hits. The biggest version of the Tesla weapons has a chance of hitting all other units close to the target; both friend and foe. One of the new vehicles carries the doomsday cannon: 72" S9 AP1 Heavy 1 large blast. BS4.

Matt Ward seams to be addressing the first two concerns for them. That alone should be a reason to be hopefull. I mean look what he did for Grey Knights: 1) Strength 8 Auto Cannons for Dreads, Strength 7 Psycannons distributed through numerous unit selections, Strength 7 Assault Cannons for Razor Backs...and indirectly, DH Vehicles have a very reliable chance of ignoring stunned and shaken results...which means their cheap anti-tank weapons can keep shooting. No, I expect good things ruleswise for the Necron Codex.

To the people complaining about transports and jump infantry...
I know nothing about the new book but rumors, but let me tell you something:
Forget everything you know about Necrons.
Take that sorry excuse for a codex-pamphlete and eradicate it from your memory.
Expect something completely new and fresh, unbiased and built from the ground.

Dark Eldar are my precedent. Necrons will still be tough robots, but that's most likely all the new book will have in common with the old one.


And I'm really wondering how Necrons are Tomb Kings in Space. Because of slight egyptian iconography and metal skeletons?
Thousand Sons and Eldar are Tomb Kings in Space too then?

And I'm really wondering how Necrons are Tomb Kings in Space. Because of slight egyptian iconography and metal skeletons?

Uh, yeah, it's a skeleton army rising from the dead with Egyptian themed iconography. I really had to work hard to restrain myself from beginning this post with the word, "d'uh!" Seriously, this one is just too obvious.

No, Eldar are High Elves in space. Besides, most of their background is an unusual pastiche of eastern martial arts ideas and more traditional Celtic mythology about elves which strangely, works quite well. And the Yin-Yang symbol is (obviously) not Egyptian either.

No, Thousand Sons are not a skeleton army. So not quite as literally anyway in the same way as Necrons.

Dark Eldar are my precedent. Necrons will still be tough robots, but that's most likely all the new book will have in common with the old one.

Now that makes some sense.

I wouldn't say that Brass. Thousand Sons are a pretty good analogue for the 'undead'.

There's Sorcerers who are the 'lynchpin' of a force consisting of souls trapped within their armor.
They're not skeletons or zombies in the traditional sense, but more like a Revenant I guess.

But still. I'm going to be watching this evolution of the Necrons.

This is all assuming that these rumours are true, of course. They're radically different to most other rumours I've seen, which could be a vote for or against their truthfulness. Won't know till it happens, I guess, but I'm hoping the rumours that have been kicking around these last couple of months are true compared to these.

I'd say it's a vote 'for'.

A large number of the rumor mongers out there either seem to be working from horrendously outdated or false material.

Or they make it up as they go.

wyomingfox wrote:

I disagree. You can summarize the majority of Tyranid player's constructive criticism on various old rumor, battle reports, tactic, and army list threads as follows:

We don't have enough cheap ranged anti-tank options in our codex - Codex

Blowing up transports in CC is in most cases a lose-lose situation - 5th edition

Combat resolution and excessive fearless wounds - 5th Edition

TMC are more expensive and less survivable that thier vehicle counter-parts - Codex/5th Edition

Lack of multi-wound shinanigans in a codex full of multi-wound units - Codex

Where's the Tervigon/Parosite/Prime? - Product Availablilty

Metal Boxes immune to SITW and IC can't jump in a Spod Tyranid FAQ Rulings - FAQ

That was well said and laid out. To take that a step further, that list contains 7 big ticket items. Of which, 5 were heavily influenced/ignored by Cruddance---with a possibility of the other two having influence (His input on what players would demand model wise and his input on the FAQ---both unknown but likely).

I'd also say that part of what was done with Tyranids is simply because of the reaction that the Guard Codex got.

But yeah. Let's get back on topic, take the complaints about Tyranids elsewhere.

Kanluwen wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

I hate to say it: but you really don't. There's complaints from the Chaos players, but you have to be blind to not know that those are justified.

As are the majority of the Tyranid complaints. They can still compete (as can Chaos), but GW has done nothing but poo on them since the release of the codex.

Yes and no. The majority of the Tyranid complaints can be boiled down to "They changed our playstyle, nerfed Carnifexes(which we all had tons of) and we're missing models from the army book!".
Changed playstyle? That's not really something to complain about.
Nerfed Carnifexes was going to happen. There was no chance they would be left the same.
Missing models is a valid complaint.

If that's all you see from Nid complaints, then no wonder you have the opinion you do. As someone else said, it's OT though so we can agree to disagree for now. I will point out one thing though that is relevent to the thread: Changing a playstyle is absolutely something to complain about. I buy into an army because of how they look/cool fluff, but more so because of how they play. Spending a $1000+ on an army and then having someone completely change the fluff and playstyle (which were the reasons you bought into it) is definately something to complain about. GW needs to hold a little more consistancy and overwatch on their writers from one codex update to another. If things change because of a core rules update that's one thing, but it should be the burden of the writers to ensure that when an update to the codex comes, they maintain the style and feel of an army first and foremost while making it viable within the confines of the the latest rule edition.

(btw: For the record, I personally don't think Nids playstyle changed all that much other than essentially one net list becoming unviable)

Korraz wrote:To the people complaining about transports and jump infantry...
I know nothing about the new book but rumors, but let me tell you something:
Forget everything you know about Necrons.
Take that sorry excuse for a codex-pamphlete and eradicate it from your memory.
Expect something completely new and fresh, unbiased and built from the ground.

Dark Eldar are my precedent. Necrons will still be tough robots, but that's most likely all the new book will have in common with the old one.

If that ends up being the case, I'll most likely have 3700 points of Necrons for sale for anyone interested. "Tough Robots" seem to be all that non-Necron players see when they look at the army.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of rules?
Yes, Daemons of Chaos army book. Singlehandedly ended fair competitive play in 7th edition.
Fixed with 8th edition rules, whose magic makes fair competitive play nearly impossible with all other armies as well.

Well, to start with that's Fantasy, this is 40k. If you want to go and complain about Matt Wards efforts in WHFB, go and discuss it in said forum, but this is 40k Background.

You asked "Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of rules?" and I correctly answered yes.
If you had asked: "Has Matt Ward ever since 1st May 2011 written an entirely broken non-Imperial Codex?", I would have answered no.

If you had asked "Has Matt Ward deserved this hate for any non-Imperial Codex written since the 1st May 2011?", I would have answered no.

But you didn't.

BTW:

Codex Grey Knights wrote:(...) the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

How would you call that: "Free their comrades unexpectedly of the burden of life and adorning their armours with their blood"?
Guess they remembered the Blood Angels/Necron incident (another Mat Ward highlight) and wanted a bro fist from Khorne Berserkers

Kroothawk wrote:BTW:

Codex Grey Knights wrote:(...) the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

How would you call that: "Free their comrades unexpectedly of the burden of life and adorning their armours with their blood"?
Guess they remembered the Blood Angels/Necron incident (another Mat Ward highlight) and wanted a bro fist from Khorne Berserkers

That...is seriously messed up

i hate to admit it, but i have to agree with most people on this. wards fluff is just meh. i was ok with blood angels fluff but that was only cuz most of what i remember was re-telling old codex info and bl books (iv re-read the books alot but the codex has been about 6 months since i looked through the fluff, so i might be wrong). the grey knights ones though... ugh. so fluff for necrons has a 50-50 chance of being ok or bad, but not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wyomingfox wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:BTW:

Codex Grey Knights wrote:(...) the Grey Knights first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

How would you call that: "Free their comrades unexpectedly of the burden of life and adorning their armours with their blood"?
Guess they remembered the Blood Angels/Necron incident (another Mat Ward highlight) and wanted a bro fist from Khorne Berserkers

That...is seriously messed up

that was my reaction. also, pretty much proving why i even said "how can there be a sisters codex now?"

special rule:

Favourite enemy: Marines

I'm looking forward to seeing a new Sisters codex. I no longer play them, but i still like the fluff and style

6 new vehicles....

Looks very competitive.

Depends on the vehicles

They could be the necron equivilent of land raiders (and be very effective) or they could be Armour 9, 6 ' max move unarmed skiffs with a troop capacity of 1

We will see

I love my Necrons, but if this means I have to kiss my Pariahs goodbye (spent about $100 on them...) then that will make me sad. I liked having my pariahs... that and I spent a while painting them >.> New units though I like. Maybe we will get all the C'tan? Void Dragon themed Necron army for the win. Special ability lets it control enemy vehicles > Oh the possibilities. Just gave myself a Land Raider/ battlesuit/ dreadknight conversion Idea...

I hope the walker vehicle resembles the Hunter Killer Tank from The Terminator. And I'm still hoping that We'll Be Back isn't done away with. I loved that rule, for it saved my ass many times in the past...

I know what I'm getting on my birthday!

Ascalam wrote:Depends on the vehicles

They could be the necron equivilent of land raiders (and be very effective) or they could be Armour 9, 6 ' max move unarmed skiffs with a troop capacity of 1

We will see

they could be de ravagers? open top transports, im guessing all of them are skimmers. haha, a giant disc

Raveners? Ravagers? It's one or the other.

haha, i added an n. ravagers

Savis wrote:I really don't understand why people are so scared of change.

When you've played an army (or indeed, any game) long time and are comfortable with it, any change feels scary. I am waiting the next Tau codex with mixture of eagerness and horror - there will be changes, some probably rather big ones, and they might be hard to swallow.

What people seem afraid of is that Necrons will become just another generic Mech army if they get transports. As I see it, these rumours are too vague to get too upset - so far. I don't think anyone disagrees that Necrons need broader unit selection. Most people will probably also agree that Phase out and WBB need some addressing. So far so good, right? And as far as the fluff goes, even the worst Ward fluff imaginable would be huge improvment over the current Necron fluff.

What surprises me most, perhaps more than anything else, is that we have got to page 11 of this thread and no-one has noticed the obvious.

That GW has basically copied an 80's cartoon (Thundercats) for the naming of it's new 'ever living' rule

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umU8vKRNnRw

I've played Necrons since their release back in 1997 in WD.

I didn't like what they did to them for 3rd ed in WD and the change from 3rd ed - Codex I was relieved to see that they continued to evolve as a raiding force.

4th ed came, then 5th and Necrons became the whipping boys of 5th (or so many claimed).

The changes from what I see may be necessary, but it feels like they are losing some of their character (or gaining too much). I chose the 'Crons for their character above what they did on the field and I for one am not liking what they intend to do (according to the rumors anyway).

Necrons going Mech is a bit of a Marmite idea IMO. Some will love it, some will hate it. If it's done right according to what we're used to (small vehicles, fast and obscenely heavily armed for their size) this will be magnificent. The idea of the vehicle not actually carrying the squad but acting as a "portal on wheels" is awesome.

I look forward to this with some fear and excitement.

Does anyone else have any idea on if the current models will be valid? Like the Warriors/Destroyers/Scarabs? If they are, I will be re-doing my army as I found a FLGS that is having a massive sale on some of the 40k stuff that never sells - I.E Necrons, Sisters and Eldar.