What is wrong with Ultramarines?

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**ThirdUltra**

I equate it more to Halsey pounding the Japanese carriers at Leyte Gulf. Meanwhile the escort carriers took on the main battlefleet and saved the invasion force. RG got duped again... That is what we all aspire to. Being gullible marines.

Considering that most of the primarchs were duped in one way or another during the whole thing, this is point is irrleveant.

On the other hand, I can surely understand why some would hate them due to their over-use as GW's poster boys (i'm one of those and I like the UM's), however, for the other reasons noted in this thread, I think it's rather silly.

The Ultramarines have a pretty solid background and they played their part in the Horus Heresy, though it was nothing like the Imperial Fists, White Scars or Blood Angels did.

And on another point, yes, this does appear to be a Ultramarine hate-thread, or troll-thread.....or the OP really is noob here, but I doubt it.

This is very tiring and old; people will have their likes and dislikes, regardless of fluff or Black Library novels/codex story lines, so this thread is rather pointless especially if it's just about hate-mongering.....just an fyii.

**iproxtaco**

To be fair, they did more than make up for it after The Heresy, basically manning the defenses across the galaxy, whilst Guilliman took control. Their survival also provided the basis for the majority of the new Astartes chapters. They also had a reason for their presence at Calth.

**Scapegrace**

Asherian Command wrote:
fixed. Black works better than blue.
Why can't the black legion be blue?
And the ultramarines black?

Too much black is meh.
My first color scheme was black silver, and bits of gold.
I hated it.

**DAaddict**

ThirdUltra wrote:

And on another point, yes, this does appear to be a Ultramarine hate-thread, or troll-thread.....or the OP really is noob here, but I doubt it.

This is very tiring and old; people will have their likes and dislikes, regardless of fluff or Black Library novels/codex story lines, so this thread is rather pointless especially if it's just about hate-mongering.....just an fyii.

True, albeit I didn't consider it hate or trolling but rather poking fun at the poster boys for the imperium. In all reality, I think you can make a case that rules-wise, the ultramarines standard is probably the most subtle and most powerful marine build.

Ravenwing - beat it over your head and fleet everything.
White scars - beat it over your head and outflank or bike-mount everything.
Salamanders - beat it over your head with TL-flamers and meltas and throw in some MC thunderhammers.
Imperial Fists - beat it over your head with shooting (sternguard) and stubborn.

The UM power of being able to auto-run is almost as powerful as the SW counterattack ability. You make people afraid to shoot you before they charge because the last thing they want is to allow you a morale test, which you can auto-fail and then be left hanging in the breeze.

**ThirdUltra**

DAaddict wrote:
ThirdUltra wrote:

And on another point, yes, this does appear to be a Ultramarine hate-thread, or troll-thread.....or the OP really is noob here, but I doubt it.

This is very tiring and old; people will have their likes and dislikes, regardless of fluff or Black Library novels/codex story lines, so this thread is rather pointless especially if it's just about hate-mongering.....just an fyii.

True, albeit I didn't consider it hate or trolling but rather poking fun at the poster boys for the imperium. In all reality, I think you can make a case that rules-wise, the ultramarines standard is probably the most subtle and most powerful marine build.

Ravenwing - beat it over your head and fleet everything.
White scars - beat it over your head and outflank or bike-mount everything.
Salamanders - beat it over your head with TL-flamers and meltas and throw in some MC thunderhammers.
Imperial Fists - beat it over your head with shooting (sternguard) and stubborn.

The UM power of being able to auto-run is almost as powerful as the SW counterattack ability. You make people afraid to shoot you before they charge because the last thing they want is to allow you a morale test, which you can auto-fail and then be left hanging in the breeze.

Point taken lol!

Guess I missed the subtle or finer points of humor here...lol!

But yes, you're correct in the rules-assessment of the UM's as far their chapter tactics go.

**Magtherion_Soulsaver**

They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?

**Coolyo294**

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?

All SMs know no fear.

**purplefood**

coolyo294 wrote:
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?
All SMs know no fear.

Which asks the qustion. How do they know when to run?

**Magtherion_Soulsaver**

coolyo294 wrote:
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?
All SMs know no fear.

Ok, my point is, they seem a bit snobby.

**Nerivant**

purplefood wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?
All SMs know no fear.

Which asks the qustion. How do they know when to run?

Space Marines don't 'run.' They tactically relocate.

**Magtherion_Soulsaver**

Nerivant wrote:
purplefood wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?
All SMs know no fear.

Which asks the qustion. How do they know when to run?

Space Marines don't 'run.' They tactically relocate.

Fire warriors do. =P But I give them credit, if there is a good distance fire warriors are the ones to worry about.

**DAaddict**

ThirdUltra wrote:
Point taken lol!

Guess I missed the subtle or finer points of humor here...lol!

But yes, you're correct in the rules-assessment of the UM's as far their chapter tactics go.

It is hard to tell humor and trolling apart in the written word. You miss the intonations and gestures that let you know.

**iproxtaco**

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:They know no fear? Thus making them a tad bit arrogant?
All SMs know no fear.

Ok, my point is, they seem a bit snobby.

Knowing no fear is not arrogance. They literally CAN'T know fear, it's indoctrinated into them, and it's in their very genetics. They are designed to know no fear because it's a good thing to have when facing their foes. They can run, in the sense that they retreat when they see their chances of victory as low, but they don't 'flee' in the sense that a frightened Guardsmen would.

**thenoobbomb**

Tactical retreat, as mentioned.

**forruner_mercy**

DAaddict wrote:
ThirdUltra wrote:
Point taken lol!

Guess I missed the subtle or finer points of humor here...lol!

But yes, you're correct in the rules-assessment of the UM's as far their chapter tactics go.

It is hard to tell humor and trolling apart in the written word. You miss the intonations and gestures that let you know.

Very true. Tone of voice is another important thing when dealing with sarcasm. Sarcasm can be just as hard, if not harder, to detect in writing as humor. That is why I am always cautious when saying things with those in it. People may take it the wrong way.

**Pyriel-**

I dont like them because they are more self righteous then the rest of the chapters.

They rant about being pure codex and look down on chapters that dont follow it to the letter yet they have anti tyranid specialists.
They rant about always standing against chaos with no exception yet their chapter master uses chaos relics.

I think Graham summed them up perfectly where Honsou asks Ventris why he was banished from the chapter:
"What, did you take the wrong turn on the parade ground?"

**King Pariah**

coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
Wardragoon wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:I don't get why chapters would want to aspire to be like them, It'd make more sense if they aspired to be like one that either embraces Codex Astartes or rejects it almost completely. Like the Red Scorpions or the Raptors
What are you smoking? Ultramarines are the strictest followers of the Codex Astartes.

Fixed that for you.

Red Scorpions actually are. Look it up.
No, because the Ultramarines Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. And besides, Red Scorpions can have Apothecarys for Sergeants. That's sure not in the Codex Astartes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the CA states allying with Xenos is a no go (which the Ultramarines have done) and that letting Xenos leave the planet before using Exterminatus on said planet is also a no go (Which the Ultrasmurfs have done as well) They did both with the Tau, it's in the 40k rulebook pg. 128.

**Wardragoon**

King Pariah wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
Wardragoon wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:I don't get why chapters would want to aspire to be like them, It'd make more sense if they aspired to be like one that either embraces Codex Astartes or rejects it almost completely. Like the Red Scorpions or the Raptors
What are you smoking? Ultramarines are the strictest followers of the Codex Astartes.

Fixed that for you.

Red Scorpions actually are. Look it up.
No, because the Ultramarines Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. And besides, Red Scorpions can have Apothecarys for Sergeants. That's sure not in the Codex Astartes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the CA states allying with Xenos is a no go (which the Ultramarines have done) and that letting Xenos leave the planet before using Exterminatus on said planet is also a no go (Which the Ultrasmurfs have done as well) They did both with the Tau, it's in the 40k rulebook pg. 128.

I don't think the codex has anything for xenos aside how to kill them, not to kill them on sight, but do red scorpions execute those that break with the codex?

**ThirdUltra**

Same could be said for the Blood Angels, allying with the Necrons against the Tyranids, so this xenos stuff is irrelevant in regards to the Codex Astartes.

The Codex Astartes is more a tactical guideline for how the Adeptus Astartes make war, including TO&E organization, etc.

Obviously, other chapters interpret it differently while retaining some of their own ritual-beliefs and original lineage to their primogenitor legion.

As far as the Black Library series with Uriel Ventris goes; it's pretty much a story that really goes out there to make it interesting....other than that, I'd consider it just that....entertaining, but far from Canon. Other BL novels can fit this mold too.

And lets' remember that the CA also has caveats where flexibility is needed depending on the battlefield situation, so it's not like the UM's or others are so strict that they can't think otuside the box......because obviously, in the 41st millenium, such narrow minded thinking can get you killed in a hurry......they haven't survived this long without being flexible.

Additionally, the UM's are not arrogant or self-righteous; there are are far more worse chapters (Marines Malevolent, Silver Skulls, Flesh tearers) in regards to their interpersonal dealings with non-astartes or fellow astartes included. Remember, that they rule a 7-star empire and have martial olympiads to recruit candidates, so their interaction with their own citizens are quite civil, like the Salamanders and others.

I could go on, but I don't want to drag this down; I've already posted earlier about the origin of this thread and it was mentioned it was tongue-in-cheek/poking fun kind of deal, so it is what it is....

**Omegus**

I'm just amused that pretty much the only time Ultras accomplish something significant is when they deviate from Guilliman's codex.

Their one small success against the Alpha Legion was when Rowboat Girlyman did something completely contrary to his usual tactics, and their one successful captain since then gets exiled for his troubles.

Then, of course, there is this:

Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman (Nicknamed Rowboat Girlyman for being an utter gakker during the Heresy), is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Almost half of all Space Marine legions betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. The traitors lay siege to Holy Terra, and most of the Space marine legions suffer major losses. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White scars are forced to make a stand on Terra while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld to renegade elements within their home planet, the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed, and the Emperor is crippled while battling Horus. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman created the Codex Astartes as we know it today, including the separation of the 10,000 strong legions into 1,000 strong chapters. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.

546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor(AKA: today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the grey knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrants" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the:

745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lost their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.

901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.

988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins. A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the crimson fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are wounded severely and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs, and manage to contribute...a few Honor Guards.

**DAaddict**

LOL from your synopsis of UM activities it makes you wonder if:

1.Ultramarines publish a schedule of their itinerary with all Xenos so that they know where to hit.
2. Ultramarines are the most insidious form of Chaos marines working from the inside for the ultimate demise of the Imperium.
3. The most ineptly led force with an intelligence force of blind men reading screens and deaf men listening for the most alarming sound.

You know, seeing it is not history, it makes you wonder why GW points to them as the ultimate marine but then builds all the fluff to put them into question rather than on a pedestal.

**thenoobbomb**

ThirdUltra wrote:
Same could be said for the Blood Angels, allying with the Necrons against the Tyranids, so this xenos stuff is irrelevant in regards to the Codex Astartes.

The Codex Astartes is more a tactical guideline for how the Adeptus Astartes make war, including TO&E organization, etc.

Obviously, other chapters interpret it differently while retaining some of their own ritual-beliefs and original lineage to their primogenitor legion.

As far as the Black Library series with Uriel Ventris goes; it's pretty much a story that really goes out there to make it interesting....other than that, I'd consider it just that....entertaining, but far from Canon. Other BL novels can fit this mold too.

And lets' remember that the CA also has caveats where flexibility is needed depending on the battlefield situation, so it's not like the UM's or others are so strict that they can't think otuside the box......because obviously, in the 41st millenium, such narrow minded thinking can get you killed in a hurry......they haven't survived this long without being flexible.

Additionally, the UM's are not arrogant or self-righteous; there are are far more worse chapters (Marines Malevolent, Silver Skulls, Knights of Blood) in regards to their interpersonal dealings with non-astartes or fellow astartes included. Remember, that they rule a 7-star empire and have martial olympiads to recruit candidates, so their interaction with their own citizens are quite civil, like the Salamanders and others.

I could go on, but I don't want to drag this down; I've already posted earlier about the origin of this thread and it was mentioned it was tongue-in-cheek/poking fun kind of deal, so it is what it is....

The necron point again.. Thats tactical..
Oh, and fixed the BA succesor chapter in Knights of Blood. Flesh tearers? Nah. They arent bad. Knights of Blood are!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:2. Ultramarines are the most insidious form of Chaos marines working from the inside for the ultimate demise of the Imperium.

They are pure chaos. Corrupted smurfs, ftw!

**ThirdUltra**

The necron point again.. Thats tactical..
Oh, and fixed the BA succesor chapter in Knights of Blood. Flesh tearers? Nah. They arent bad. Knights of Blood are!

Then you have no knowledge of their part in the 3rd War for Armageddon do you? Flesh Tearers are a little more than just a cursed founding. How about the Silver Skulls? Do you even know about them as well.....you might want to re-read your fluff there.....there are many that are far more arrogant than even the Ultras.

And like I've explained; the UM's in the Uriel Ventris series is is pretty laughable.....entertaining, yes, but far from a decent, solid story.

DAaddict wrote:2. Ultramarines are the most insidious form of Chaos marines working from the inside for the ultimate demise of the Imperium.

They are pure chaos. Corrupted smurfs, ftw!

Ahh....the typical Ultra-hate mongering....it is strong in you....keep on trying lol!

Like I said, ya throw a thread out there about Ultras, and the haters come out of the closet....typical response.

**Omegus**

Really, all the Astartes are arrogant bastards. Even Loken, the most "human" (or at least most sympathetic towards humans) Astartes wasn't overly perturbed when in their haste his company crushed something like 20+ crewmen. He felt the occasional pang of shame, but the very idea that the Astartes should be accountable in the least bit for the death of some puny mortals he saw as ludicrous.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the Emperor and his genetic monstrosities are the worst thing to befall humanity, up to and including the awakening of the Primordial Annihilator.

**Durza**

Well... in fairness to the Emperor, the Void Dragon would probably have eaten the world if he hadn't been there.

**Toastedandy**

I like ultramarines because I like the colour blue, problem?

**King Pariah**

Wardragoon wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
Wardragoon wrote:
coolyo294 wrote:
King Pariah wrote:I don't get why chapters would want to aspire to be like them, It'd make more sense if they aspired to be like one that either embraces Codex Astartes or rejects it almost completely. Like the Red Scorpions or the Raptors
What are you smoking? Ultramarines are the strictest followers of the Codex Astartes.

Fixed that for you.

Red Scorpions actually are. Look it up.
No, because the Ultramarines Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. And besides, Red Scorpions can have Apothecarys for Sergeants. That's sure not in the Codex Astartes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the CA states allying with Xenos is a no go (which the Ultramarines have done) and that letting Xenos leave the planet before using Exterminatus on said planet is also a no go (Which the Ultrasmurfs have done as well) They did both with the Tau, it's in the 40k rulebook pg. 128.

I don't think the codex has anything for xenos aside how to kill them, not to kill them on sight, but do red scorpions execute those that break with the codex?

Yes they do kill those who break with the codex, and they're also the Inquisitions favorite pet student..

Also I would like to point out that Roboute Guillman himself broke his own rules when attacking Thousand Sons in the battle that killed Alpharius. Ultramarines initiated the battle in a very very Raven Guard or Raptor like manner.

**iproxtaco**

The Codex Astartes is a masterpiece. That said, sticking to the same tactical dogma for 10,000 years simply because of tradition is ludicrous. Uriel and his predecessor had the right idea. The rules should be flexible and could be interpreted to suit the situation.

**purplefood**

Kind Pariah wrote:Yes they do kill those who break with the codex, and they're also the Inquisitions favorite pet student..

Also I would like to point out that Roboute Guillman himself broke his own rules when attacking Thousand Sons in the battle that killed Alpharius. Ultramarines initiated the battle in a very very Raven Guard or Raptor like manner.

Wanna check that?
And being BFFs with the Inquistion doesn't make you more adherant to the Codex...

**iproxtaco**

If anything, it makes you even less, as the Inquisition more often than not dictates when, how, where, with what you will fight, and what your fighting against.