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Ooooh that, yeah, that was awesome

Thanks for refreshing that bit, been quite a while since I last read The fall of reach.


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Rurouni Benshin wrote:I don't play Halo, but from what I'm told and as far as I see, they're just like regular soldiers, but with enhanced body armor that's probably equivalent to flak/carapace armor.

Space Marines are regular soldiers with enhanced bodily functions from the gene-seed that is implanted in them. Their average height stretches to about 7.5-8 feet, grow secondary (and sometimes tertiary) vital organs, and have an enhanced metabolism that allows them heal faster (think of Wolverine's Healing Ability, albeit probably half as fast). Their Power Armor deflects bullets like nothing, and even have a sustaining life support system inside should the Marine come under any kind of duress where his body can't keep up with (as if that was difficult enough to understand).

So yeah, I'd have to give it to the Space Marine. I'd think of a Spartan has a cross between an IG veteran/soldier. They're not the cream of the crop of their units, but like the backbone that supports his army along with the other rank and file troops.

If you had even attempted reading some of the posts here, you'd know how wrong you are on the Spartans.

You obviously haven't seen very far then, SPARTANS are far more than just soldiers with Flak armour.

iproxtaco wrote:Expand on this apparent second chances he was getting.

It's a joke based on the fact that you can save and reload a lot playing Halo.

It went over my head, many apologies for the inconwenience.

As far as asking about MI, you can't honestly play 40k and not read the best Sci-Fi book from the last 50 years. Starship Troopers by Heinlein is basically what birthed 40k. The SM are loosers in comparisson to a single MI trooper, and the Tyranids (and for that matter Starcraft's Zerg) are superemely pale and wimpy versions of the book's Arachnids (who shoot meteors with pin point accuracy from across the galaxy at you).

Basically an MI troop squad (say 5-10 men) can cover an area the size of many countries or states by themselves and easily pacify anything inside it without the need of any transport. When the Arachnids attack it isn't millions of them but billions upon billions of workers with warriors mixed in. Critters that litteraly a SM army would be out of ammo and dead before they could tell which was a warrior and which was a worker (if you read the Horus Heresey novel imagine the planet murder, but where the bugs don't need the grass to hide in, have plasma weapons, and come in 100 to 1000 times the numbers). Take a Tau battlesuit, make it even more mobile, and then strap weapons that only come via orbital barrage or the nastiest of titan weapons, put that with a SW like training regime (i.e. dump you in the frozen wilds buck naked, except these guys are human and not gene enhanced, and to make the grade you must survive), out numbered trillions to one...yeah, the MI eats all for breakfast (even fluff wise and not game stat wise, a Marine would be hopelessly annihilated without ever knowing who killed him with pin point super weapons from a guy who could be a mile off). What's scary is this is actually the direction the US military is headed (they are developing very basic versions of the MI armor for use today).

In a nutshell, the movie had very very little to do with the book. Seriously, the book is the father of the super soldier sci fi armies vs aliens. Heinlin's other novels aren't that great, but this one is fantastic.

Not read it, don't plan to. Not really a prerequisite as from what I have been told about it, 40k has differentiated enough for me to say that it is its own thing now. Derivations sure, but 40k is now an IP that can't really be attributed directly to Starship Troopers and the like to validate an IP argument against its originality in my opinion.

Well thats nothing compred to the super soldiers Im going to make up

themocaw wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Master Chief was the best leader.

Not quite. Master Chief was the leader because he was the luckiest of them all. It was almost as if some intelligence was guiding him and letting him try again if he screwed up until he got it right.

"Intelligence" is not the term I would use to describe most Halo players.


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Maniac_nmt wrote:What's scary is this is actually the direction the US military is headed (they are developing very basic versions of the MI armor for use today)..

Scary? Or awesome?

We're all going to die in an apocalypse of our own making. If there's any IP 40K really owes its existance to, it's Real Life(tm).

Omegus wrote:

themocaw wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Master Chief was the best leader.

Not quite. Master Chief was the leader because he was the luckiest of them all. It was almost as if some intelligence was guiding him and letting him try again if he screwed up until he got it right.

"Intelligence" is not the term I would use to describe most Halo players.

Until CoD came along, then intelligence is a very good word to use in comparison. You know you're playing against idiots when they try to insult you by calling you a milf.

one thing most people posting are forgetting is that most spartans are about 8 ft tall. yes they are only about 1 feet tall then most humans in the halo world the reason for that is that the human race grows taller as the years go buy and they took that into account when they were making halo

Three heights for three characters, Avery Johnson is the tallest at 6 ft 2", so no, most humans are not 7ft tall. Take Jorge in the first mission, he's 7 ft 4" and is a lot taller than the civilians you encounter. Sam, the tallest SPARTAN, was a 'head' taller than the Chief, who is 6ft 10". He is likey to be about 7ft 5/6", and that's without armor on. Add on a certain number of inches puts their heights at a max of 7ft 9"ish with Sam, and puts the Chief above 7ft.

Maniac_nmt wrote:In a nutshell, the movie had very very little to do with the book. Seriously, the book is the father of the super soldier sci fi armies vs aliens. Heinlin's other novels aren't that great, but this one is fantastic.

While we're talking Starship Troopers, you forgot my favorite scene in the movie: Rico essentially breaking into the equivalent of a Tau meeting house, and leaving behind a present:

"I'M A THIRTY SECOND BOMB! I'M A THIRTY SECOND BOMB! TWENTY-NINE, TWENTY EIGHT. . ."

Kinder to shoot a man.

iproxtaco wrote:Not read it, don't plan to. Not really a prerequisite as from what I have been told about it, 40k has differentiated enough for me to say that it is its own thing now. Derivations sure, but 40k is now an IP that can't really be attributed directly to Starship Troopers and the like to validate an IP argument against its originality in my opinion.

Not saying anything about an IP conflict, just saying it's the original, and still the best. It has a fairly good take on the futuristic 'facist' society, the way wars will go, etc. I wouldn't say D&D should get nailed for IP issues when it's a riff on Lord of the Rings which is a riff on Norse Mythology and the Bible. I am saying you can see where a lot of the initial ideas came from.

I enjoy 40k, the fluff is a bit...bad... in places (not unlike Battletech's war has meant we've technologically stagnated plot line, while the stripped down military came back better after going into the wilds of borneo without proper facilities and getting help from no one). Still the setting is fun, the models are cool, and it's fun to play at tin soldiers (it's just nice to read the original sci-fi take on the war to determine the survival of man vs a cold dark space).

Maniac_nmt wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Not read it, don't plan to. Not really a prerequisite as from what I have been told about it, 40k has differentiated enough for me to say that it is its own thing now. Derivations sure, but 40k is now an IP that can't really be attributed directly to Starship Troopers and the like to validate an IP argument against its originality in my opinion.

Not saying anything about an IP conflict, just saying it's the original, and still the best. It has a fairly good take on the futuristic 'facist' society, the way wars will go, etc. I wouldn't say D&D should get nailed for IP issues when it's a riff on Lord of the Rings which is a riff on Norse Mythology and the Bible. I am saying you can see where a lot of the initial ideas came from.

I enjoy 40k, the fluff is a bit...bad... in places (not unlike Battletech's war has meant we've technologically stagnated plot line, while the stripped down military came back better after going into the wilds of borneo without proper facilities and getting help from no one). Still the setting is fun, the models are cool, and it's fun to play at tin soldiers (it's just nice to read the original sci-fi take on the war to determine the survival of man vs a cold dark space).

I don't quite know if its fascist,you have to have been a soldier(and as long as you are mentally capable they will find a job for you) in order to run for political office iirc, and there are many basic rights all recieve and in all honesty as long as you can deal with the training bit it is a good book. Its a bit like reading the first half of 'the fall of reach'


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Also I think it is on west points reading list due to how much it has arguably already affected military policy

Maniac_nmt wrote:Lord of the Rings which is a riff on Norse Mythology and the Bible.

I didnt know it was a rip on Norse Myth.....I thought most of it was inspired by real events while he was fighting ze germans in the trenches.

Toastedandy wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:Lord of the Rings which is a riff on Norse Mythology and the Bible.

I didnt know it was a rip on Norse Myth.....I thought most of it was inspired by real events while he was fighting ze germans in the trenches.

More of the whole elves and dwarves are based on norse mythos :/

I thought they all died off fighting in the trenches. Dwarves were particularly good at it. Elves....not so much.

Toastedandy wrote:I thought they all died off fighting in the trenches. Dwarves were particularly good at it. Elves....not so much.

*Stereotypical senile old man voice* No sonny, the dwarves were slow, they were easy to hit with the good ol' Lewis Gun, now the elves were hard to hit since they were dancing so much

Wardragoon wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:I thought they all died off fighting in the trenches. Dwarves were particularly good at it. Elves....not so much.

*Stereotypical senile old man voice* No sonny, the dwarves were slow, they were easy to hit with the good ol' Lewis Gun, now the elves were hard to hit since they were dancing so much

But Elves had to duck constantly so not to have their heads blown off, so they all got sore backs, and stopped dancing after trench rot set in.

Dwarves if anything, needed to bring a box around at all times to see over the trench. But after a few months in the mud, their beards got so caked they formed an earth shield, protecting them from everything but explosions and bullets,unfortunately , their was alot of explosions and bullets.

Fantasy in general is a rip from all mythology, Norse, Greek and often even Asian.

As for the whole mobile infantry comparison. not really fair, they got mini nukes.

iproxtaco wrote:I am, in reply to the poster above, who said Spartans are entirely fictional, which isn't entirely true. SPARTANS of course aren't and never have been real.

I think it's a closer run thing than some people think. We put say, the Master Chief against Uriel Ventris, a fairly equal-ish match. Uriel is by far, stronger, tougher, and has better armor and to an extent, weaponry. The Master Chief is faster, with better reaction times, better tactical awareness and has a slight advantage in that he has a temporary shield.

I agree wholeheartedly. It would be a closer match than a lot of people think.

Marines: tougher bodies, better armour, access to much more powerful weaponry.

SPARTANS: faster, more maneuverable, more adaptable, recharging energy shield as standard equipment.


Marines are bigger and stronger, yes, but they are bulkier. This means in a dynamic close combat environment (not the Rage in the Cage, more of a Rumble in a concrete Jungle) they'll either have to be more careful, slower, or get caught on things more often. It might not be that great an actual impediment to them, and I doubt that they'd be stuck for long, but it would slow them down. Spartans are smaller and more agile- though a Marine might be able to ignore a Jackhammer blow, and a Spartan wouldn't, the Spartan would be much more able to dodge it.

Marines, I think, aren't quite as Endurant as SPARTANS. Yes, the Marine might have two hearts and three lungs, but that fused ribcage everyone's so hyped about is actually a major impediment to breathing deeply enough for good oxygenation, meaning they basically need those two hearts just to survive a 5K jog. I exaggerate a little, but you get the point. The human form is already pretty much optimized for endurance, and the SPARTAN stays closer to that optimum than the Marine, though even the SPARTAN would have difficulty keeping up with a baseline Marathon runner, or keep fighting an equal for as long as a baseline boxer or UFC fighter.

I believe that they're about the same strength, honestly. Marine Power Armour doesn't add as great a percentage to their un-mechanically-augmented strength, but the Marine's biological strength is greater. So in armour, I think they're about even in that regard.

The SPARTAN will be more flexible tactically. Where the Marine would stick to the "Rites of Holy Hand to Hand", the SPARTAN would be more willing to 'fight dirty', use unconventional tactics, etc, that might confer an advantage.

If you bring weapons into it, remember, the Marine wouldn't stoop to using non-Imperium weapons, while the Spartan would use anything and everything. And Spartans are apparently Relentless, since they can fire things like Sniper Rifles, Miniguns, Splasers and Missile Launchers on the move, then run up and hit you with them. Space Marines probably could be Relentless, but once again, are stopped by the "Holy way of Firing Holy Boltguns!"


In the end, I think it would be a closer match than you might think, but in a really protracted battle, I could see the Marine winning. The Spartan would win if he was able to use his maneuverability and adaptability to get in a lucky blow, but I honestly think the Marine's armour is a bit better.

The physical armor is, the energy shield really evens this out.

I spartan could probably survive a direct hit from a plasma cannon (overloaded shield though).

'nother post, as I read through the pages and pages of this thread.


I think the main reason a Spartan's shield shorts out when punched by another Spartan or an Elite, is not because of any weakness in the shield, but because the shields that each of them are wearing short each other out.


And I find it interesting that nobody's bothered to look up all the SPARTAN enhancements. They're spelled out in some of the novels.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few-

Osso-ceramification of bones, possible impregnation of the bones with buckytubes- in any case, making the bones nigh-unbreakable.

Genetic enhancement causing accellerated growth, increased muscle density, stronger immune systems- a process so rigorous only certain people can even survive it- the rest die as their muscles and organs rip their skeleton apart (because this is done I think before the Bone modification)

Neural stimulation and growth/modification, giving faster reaction times and reflexes, as well as hightened reasoning capacity. Also, a 'neural plug' for direct interface with the Mjolner armour and onboard AIs.


Aside from the fancy stuff, like the third lung and the whole 'spits acid' thing, SPARTANS and Space Marines have about equivalent physical enhancements. A Spartan without armour does weigh almost a ton, I think, or at least a few hundred Kilos more than a normal human, and though they're not all 'uber bulky' like a Marine, they do have denser musculature for enhanced strength, and greater toughness.

Anvildude wrote:'nother post, as I read through the pages and pages of this thread.


I think the main reason a Spartan's shield shorts out when punched by another Spartan or an Elite, is not because of any weakness in the shield, but because the shields that each of them are wearing short each other out.


And I find it interesting that nobody's bothered to look up all the SPARTAN enhancements. They're spelled out in some of the novels.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few-

Osso-ceramification of bones, possible impregnation of the bones with buckytubes- in any case, making the bones nigh-unbreakable.

Genetic enhancement causing accellerated growth, increased muscle density, stronger immune systems- a process so rigorous only certain people can even survive it- the rest die as their muscles and organs rip their skeleton apart (because this is done I think before the Bone modification)

Neural stimulation and growth/modification, giving faster reaction times and reflexes, as well as hightened reasoning capacity. Also, a 'neural plug' for direct interface with the Mjolner armour and onboard AIs.


Aside from the fancy stuff, like the third lung and the whole 'spits acid' thing, SPARTANS and Space Marines have about equivalent physical enhancements. A Spartan without armour does weigh almost a ton, I think, or at least a few hundred Kilos more than a normal human, and though they're not all 'uber bulky' like a Marine, they do have denser musculature for enhanced strength, and greater toughness.

It's the armor that weighs nearly a ton, not the Spartan.

Also, they have a superconductive nerve system

Carbide Ceramic Ossification - Advanced material grafting onto skeletal structures to make bones virtually unbreakable. Recommended coverage not to exceed 3% total bone mass because of significant white blood cell necrosis. Specific risk for pre-and near-postpubescent adolescents: skeletal growth spurts may cause irreparable bone pulverization.

Muscular Enhancement Injections - Protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time. Five percent (5%) of test subjects experience a fatal cardiac volume increase.

Catalytic Thyroid Implant - Platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues. Rare instances of Elephantiasis. Suppressed sexual drive.

Occipital Capillary Reversal - Submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of the subject's retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase. Retinal rejection and detatchment. Permanent blindness.

Superconducting Fibrification of Neural Dendrites - Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity. Significant instances of Parkinson's Disease and Fletcher's Syndrome.

The Master Chief weighs 179 kilograms without armour, the MJOLNIR weighing about 1000Lbs. So all together, he weighs 1390Lbs apparently. Less than a tonne, but still damn heavy. All that in addition to lifting another two.

Maniac_nmt wrote:As far as asking about MI, you can't honestly play 40k and not read the best Sci-Fi book from the last 50 years. Starship Troopers by Heinlein is basically what birthed 40k. The SM are loosers in comparisson to a single MI trooper, and the Tyranids (and for that matter Starcraft's Zerg) are superemely pale and wimpy versions of the book's Arachnids (who shoot meteors with pin point accuracy from across the galaxy at you).

Basically an MI troop squad (say 5-10 men) can cover an area the size of many countries or states by themselves and easily pacify anything inside it without the need of any transport. When the Arachnids attack it isn't millions of them but billions upon billions of workers with warriors mixed in. Critters that litteraly a SM army would be out of ammo and dead before they could tell which was a warrior and which was a worker (if you read the Horus Heresey novel imagine the planet murder, but where the bugs don't need the grass to hide in, have plasma weapons, and come in 100 to 1000 times the numbers). Take a Tau battlesuit, make it even more mobile, and then strap weapons that only come via orbital barrage or the nastiest of titan weapons, put that with a SW like training regime (i.e. dump you in the frozen wilds buck naked, except these guys are human and not gene enhanced, and to make the grade you must survive), out numbered trillions to one...yeah, the MI eats all for breakfast (even fluff wise and not game stat wise, a Marine would be hopelessly annihilated without ever knowing who killed him with pin point super weapons from a guy who could be a mile off).

I'm curious to know how many rockets and Battle Cannon shots one of these guys can ake compared to a Terminator taking about 5 or so. also while looking up some stuff about Starship Troopers it says the workers didn't do much fighting, even when they were attacked. really? you can't use "being outnumbered 1000 to 1" when 950 of them don't even have any combat knowledge or at least a low level killer instinct.

Does it really matter when a single warrior can cut you in half from a long range with a single plasma beam?

Soladrin wrote:Does it really matter when a single warrior can cut you in half from a long range with a single plasma beam?

yes, when the other guy can teleport behind (or in front) you and use his shoulder mounted weapons to blow you away. I mean, a Terminator can take more damage than a Leman Russ and it can even stop a Lascannon (5++ save), heck, make that a Railgun.

You can't really apply game rules to a purely fluff discussion you know...

Also, theres more of them.

I'm confused, is this now an argument about the novel version starship troopers versus Terminators? Everything I know about the former is far better than the latter.