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Two relatively new players playing.

Player A fires a template weapon that covers 3 models. Player A picks up 3 die and says he is going to roll to hit and rolls a 1, 1 and a 6. Player A then says he is going to roll to wound, and at this point realizes his mistake that the template weapon always hits. Player A then says he is going to roll to wound, picks up and re-rolls the 3 die and the result is a 1, 6 and a 6. Player A wants player B to take 2 wounds.

If you were player B, would you take the 2 wounds, or claim that the original 3 die of 1, 1 and a 6 should count as the to-wound roll (1 wound).

I'd flip the table and cry.

In all seriousness, it calls for a 4+/coinflip. There are two acceptable outcomes that have been generated amidst the confusion.

Go with the second one each time. If you cakll a dice roll for something that is what it applies to. (with the corollary that you dont get to stay quiet, see if the result is bad go "oh that was to hit, i dont need to hit" and try to reroll)

Player B takes two wounds. Player A declared he was rolling "to hit," then realized "to hit" rolls do not apply with template weapons, therefore the rolls are nullified.

But like Nos said, he'd have to have declared they were "to hit" rolls pre-roll, or else it could be seen as trying to salvage bad rolls by claiming they were mistakenly rolled "to hit."

Nothing in the rules as far as i know...

How it gets plyed generally in my FLGS if you roll something, it sticks...
For example, you pick up a handful of dice to hit with, one falls out... leave it there, its done.
Another example, your guardians loose combat by 2, you assume your still in the Avatar fearless bubble and take 2 saves, 5 and a 6, well done! Your opponent reminds you that you are in fact not in that bubble anymore, you check it, and need to make a morale test... You just rolled your two dice required, 5 and 6 arn't looking so good now.

I'm sure if the result was 3 'hits/wounds' then player A wounldn't have insisted on a re-roll...

EDIT: spelling fail

Hence the statement about consistency: if you roll dice proclaiming "to hit" then that is what they relate to. Nothing else.

It is not a reroll at all, it is rolling the dice as required for that test.

If I was Player 'A' and I made the mistake then I would take the least advantagous position and probably would have said something like "player B, would you like me to re-roll those?"

I would have felt sheepish rolling 1's then rerolling and getting 6's. At some point, MY mistakes in gameplay are simply good luck for you and you keep playing the game.

nkelsch wrote:I would take the least advantagous position

+1

This is the best approach to any rules issue during a game that I have found.

kirsanth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I would take the least advantagous position

+1

This is the best approach to any rules issue during a game that I have found.

+2

I'm a fan of being able to play games after the one I'm currently in. So I almost always take the less advantageous results. I believe in the concept of FLGS, and you won't have a FLGS if you keep doing these things that happen to benefit you, even if it is 'accepted'.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I would take the least advantagous position

+1

This is the best approach to any rules issue during a game that I have found.

+2

I'm a fan of being able to play games after the one I'm currently in. So I almost always take the less advantageous results. I believe in the concept of FLGS, and you won't have a FLGS if you keep doing these things that happen to benefit you, even if it is 'accepted'.

+3

Agreed. Especially if it's player A's oversight, it should be on him to take responsibility for that as well as give player B the choice of what he/she would prefer to happen.

Well, if you want to be ridiculous and let him reroll that, id make him only roll to wound with the "hits", its not my fault he did something he didnt have to ...

Just as much a part of the rules (e.g not at all) as the other way.

kill dem stunties wrote:Well, if you want to be ridiculous and let him reroll that, id make him only roll to wound with the "hits", its not my fault he did something he didnt have to ...

Just as much a part of the rules (e.g not at all) as the other way.

The issue with trying to be. . .punitive like that is that you are breaking the rules by requiring the test.

Even if the opponent rolled it for no reason.

Either be a sport and allow the one named as the relevant roll, or be a stickler and reroll the whole thing.

Neither of those is wrongbut to rule that to-hit rolls matter for a weapon that auto-hits is.

I would ALWAYS announce my rolls before.
I hate it if players just roll and explain it afterwards, so they could adjust something in their favour after having made the roll. But surely confuse the opponent.

If you want to play transparent and fair:

1. Look for LOS and let the opponent agree on it (if needed. Important: Do it before you declare the action, because if you find out afterwards that the action cannot be made, because you did not have LOS could cause you unnecessary problems)
2. Declare the action thoroughly (Unit A shoots unit B with 3x weapon A and 2x Weapon B)
3. Measure what you need to measure open for your opponent and let him agree on it if it is close (mostly Ranges).
4. Explain, what you roll as specifically as possible (Rolls to hit on 3x weapon A -> rolls to wound -> rolls to hit on 2x weapon B -> rolls to wound)
5. sum up the wounds and specify their nature to the opponent(different aps, maybe instakill)
6. let him allocate wounds in patience (make sure he does not make an unintended mistake)
7. let him remove models (again he should not make unnecessary mistakes there)

This procedure does not take much time, if you do it with routine. It costs more time to solve misunderstandings afterwards.

My "doctrines" of sportsmanship are:

1. Respecting my opponent.
2. We both play the same rules.
3. I have to take care that the opponent does everything he intends to do to with the best possible result for him. (No, I dont explain to him that driving a land raider in front of 10 meltagunners is not the best idea. If that is part of his plan, I will not disturb it )
4. Always listen to the opponent carefully and friendly in difficult discussions.
5. If there is a close call: My opponent is correct.
6. Explaining what I do BEFORE I do it.
7. Always one action at a time. (No rolling for 6 running units simultaneously is NOT the same as rolling 1 -> moving 1 -> rolling 2 -> moving 2....)
8. putting some healthy spirit into the game, encouraging the opponent to have a good time playing you regardless of the result.

For new players, you have to expect mistakes and misunderstandings. It's best to agree to be lenient, IMHO, but it depends on your relationship with your opponent.

When we get a new ruleset, we always see a few errors like this. In general, we give each player the benefit of the doubt; in this case, player A would have been allowed to reroll. If it was a crucial roll, we'd have rerolled the lot or agreed a compromise.

And Nazdreg's doctrines of sportsmanship are spot on. We regularly point out commonly forgotten rules (mainly an issue in WFB), and explain our intentions where it doesn't give away tactics. ("I'm moving these guys so that they are in cover over here.")

Yes of course we make mistakes. This is why playing transparent is important. So you have your opponent controlling your actions so we have both players looking if everything is correct. And the opponent has enough time to say "Stop, what are you doing?". This is better than "Ah wait, what was this?"

Concerning "invalid" rolls:

The fairest possibility I think is:

reroll.

You have the same odds than before and you cannot complain about a worse roll. And the opponent cannot complain about a better roll either. Crucial or not.

But before you reroll, perhaps there is a way to make the roll valid. (if you rolled "to hit" and forgot you have BS4 instead of 3 then perhaps you remember the number of 3s you have to add to your hits before needing to reroll, because the roll "to hit" was correct and valid.)

Throw them out

It all depends. If it was his first time doing it, then yes, I would allow him to have the two wounds instead of one. I would take the lesser of the two, but yeah.

In my game group we have the "Rule of One", where "Everyone Gets One". If you honest to goodness forgot to move a unit before you shot, go ahead and move the unit, but after that first time, their One, it's over when you screw up. If you did something like the OP, you could reroll it, as long as it didn't happen too many times.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I would ALWAYS announce my rolls before.
I hate it if players just roll and explain it afterwards, so they could adjust something in their favour after having made the roll. But surely confuse the opponent.

If you want to play transparent and fair:

1. Look for LOS and let the opponent agree on it (if needed. Important: Do it before you declare the action, because if you find out afterwards that the action cannot be made, because you did not have LOS could cause you unnecessary problems)
2. Declare the action thoroughly (Unit A shoots unit B with 3x weapon A and 2x Weapon B)
3. Measure what you need to measure open for your opponent and let him agree on it if it is close (mostly Ranges).
4. Explain, what you roll as specifically as possible (Rolls to hit on 3x weapon A -> rolls to wound -> rolls to hit on 2x weapon B -> rolls to wound)
5. sum up the wounds and specify their nature to the opponent(different aps, maybe instakill)
6. let him allocate wounds in patience (make sure he does not make an unintended mistake)
7. let him remove models (again he should not make unnecessary mistakes there)

This procedure does not take much time, if you do it with routine. It costs more time to solve misunderstandings afterwards.

My "doctrines" of sportsmanship are:

1. Respecting my opponent.
2. We both play the same rules.
3. I have to take care that the opponent does everything he intends to do to with the best possible result for him. (No, I dont explain to him that driving a land raider in front of 10 meltagunners is not the best idea. If that is part of his plan, I will not disturb it )
4. Always listen to the opponent carefully and friendly in difficult discussions.
5. If there is a close call: My opponent is correct.
6. Explaining what I do BEFORE I do it.
7. Always one action at a time. (No rolling for 6 running units simultaneously is NOT the same as rolling 1 -> moving 1 -> rolling 2 -> moving 2....)
8. putting some healthy spirit into the game, encouraging the opponent to have a good time playing you regardless of the result.

Hit it all dead on.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I would ALWAYS announce my rolls before.
I hate it if players just roll and explain it afterwards, so they could adjust something in their favour after having made the roll. But surely confuse the opponent.

If you want to play transparent and fair:

1. Look for LOS and let the opponent agree on it (if needed. Important: Do it before you declare the action, because if you find out afterwards that the action cannot be made, because you did not have LOS could cause you unnecessary problems)
2. Declare the action thoroughly (Unit A shoots unit B with 3x weapon A and 2x Weapon B)
3. Measure what you need to measure open for your opponent and let him agree on it if it is close (mostly Ranges).
4. Explain, what you roll as specifically as possible (Rolls to hit on 3x weapon A -> rolls to wound -> rolls to hit on 2x weapon B -> rolls to wound)
5. sum up the wounds and specify their nature to the opponent(different aps, maybe instakill)
6. let him allocate wounds in patience (make sure he does not make an unintended mistake)
7. let him remove models (again he should not make unnecessary mistakes there)

This procedure does not take much time, if you do it with routine. It costs more time to solve misunderstandings afterwards.

My "doctrines" of sportsmanship are:

1. Respecting my opponent.
2. We both play the same rules.
3. I have to take care that the opponent does everything he intends to do to with the best possible result for him. (No, I dont explain to him that driving a land raider in front of 10 meltagunners is not the best idea. If that is part of his plan, I will not disturb it )
4. Always listen to the opponent carefully and friendly in difficult discussions.
5. If there is a close call: My opponent is correct.
6. Explaining what I do BEFORE I do it.
7. Always one action at a time. (No rolling for 6 running units simultaneously is NOT the same as rolling 1 -> moving 1 -> rolling 2 -> moving 2....)
8. putting some healthy spirit into the game, encouraging the opponent to have a good time playing you regardless of the result.

spot on.

With added, all character related or weapon related rules, see relevant book, take the he said she said out as much as possible.

In this instance, lots of people make this mistake at my local GW, as long as they declared the first roll was to hit, the second roll stands in my view. It's not like they had any known advantage by re rolling, they had the chance of triple ones on the to wound.

dayve110 wrote:For example, you pick up a handful of dice to hit with, one falls out... leave it there, its done.

Understandable, but I don't agree with it. If the dice accidentally falls, and its obvious when it does, we always replace it with the handful of dice and continue the roll, that ways you don't feel like luck just fethed you and he doesn't feel like your being selective of your rolls..

The way I see it, it makes no difference what you do. go for the 1st result, go for the 2nd result or roll off. The point is that whatever you decide on needs to be done consistantly every time a dispute comes up.

In your case I'd suggest a roll off, but whatever you go for, it's fair if your consistant with your decision.

Regarding dropping a die when picking them up, I don't play it quite that way. I ignore dice that are dropped when still gathering dice. Pick them up, they've not been rolled yet - regardless of the result they "roll." Along with this comes my policy for rolling dice. I will always one way or another declare that "I am now rolling." For example, I may say, "Alright, rolling to hit, I need threes on the black dice, twos on the red dice," and then roll. Or I might say, "Alright, rolling..." and roll. Or, "Alright, I need threes to hit, if the black dice roll ones, plasma Gets Hot." or, "No armor saves from the red dice. Twos to wound." Something to not only indicate what's happening with this roll, but that I am now, in fact, rolling.

The more dice you're rolling, the more important this is. For example, I actually have a small bucket labeled "Ork Dice" that I use when rolling for my Orks in CC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Go with the second one each time. If you cakll a dice roll for something that is what it applies to. (with the corollary that you dont get to stay quiet, see if the result is bad go "oh that was to hit, i dont need to hit" and try to reroll)

Yah, I would agree. Go with what you called, if it was a mistake, the roll doesn't count for anything, and can't be transferred to the next roll in line.

I enjoy randomly rolling my dice, and if I roll something bad in game terms, I don't think it would be fair of my opponent to say that counted towards my next roll.

I hear a lot of people saying they'd take the "disadvantageous route" and accept their "to hit" roll as a "to wound" roll - except that you have no way of knowing if this is the disadvantageous route.

You MUST nullify those rolls, regardless of the result, and roll to wound. They are NOT transferable.

What if you rolled three sixes? Now it looks like you're trying to manipulate your own mistake to your advantage. And if you roll a six and two ones? What's to say your next roll won't be three ones?

You have no way of knowing whether using that roll as your "to wound" roll is advantageous or not. The only fair thing to do is to nullify the roll and move on.

SaintHazard wrote:I hear a lot of people saying they'd take the "disadvantageous route" and accept their "to hit" roll as a "to wound" roll - except that you have no way of knowing if this is the disadvantageous route.

You MUST nullify those rolls, regardless of the result, and roll to wound. They are NOT transferable.

Sure but I believe that the "disadvantageous route" was a detour to the question.

kirsanth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I would take the least advantagous position

+1

This is the best approach to any rules issue during a game that I have found.

kirsanth wrote:Either be a sport and allow the one named as the relevant roll, or be a stickler and reroll the whole thing.

Neither of those is wrongbut to rule that to-hit rolls matter for a weapon that auto-hits is.

As a general policy, it's fine.

In this scenario, specifically, it doesn't particularly apply.

That was my point.

I treat it the same as if when rolling to wound with 4 hits, and you roll 5 dice by mistake. Regardless of the out come of the first roll, you reroll with the correct number of dice, but you don't get more successes than you did with the wrong number of dice.

I have seen people roll 5 dice, get 1,2,2,6,4 when needing fours, and then say opps I rolled too many. Then try to roll 4 dice and get 6,6,5,4 and say take 4 wounds. I'm like you are not getting rewarded for screwing up. The original number stands.

if its a mistake in the declared roll, and a rerolll is required, or a redo, then make sure that stays the case from then on. in that situation, "woops, i auto hit, dont need hit rolls" reroll the result even if the orginal was 6,6,5. my group follows the same terms on cocked dice, or other mistakes. a mistake is immediatly nullified regardless of result, and the second roll stands. for better or worse. mind you our group also has a fairly blatent knowlege that "intentional mistakes" usually break the game and are seen as cheating. that said, in situations like this follow the most important rule. and if a agreement cant be made, let the dice gods decide.

jbunny wrote:I treat it the same as if when rolling to wound with 4 hits, and you roll 5 dice by mistake. Regardless of the out come of the first roll, you reroll with the correct number of dice, but you don't get more successes than you did with the wrong number of dice.

I have seen people roll 5 dice, get 1,2,2,6,4 when needing fours, and then say opps I rolled too many. Then try to roll 4 dice and get 6,6,5,4 and say take 4 wounds. I'm like you are not getting rewarded for screwing up. The original number stands.

What if they had gotten 5 wounds?

No, a reroll witht he correct number of dice, or for the correct reason, is just that - a reroll. The previous roll does not constrain the roll in any way, which is the only way to be consistent.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Farseer Faenyin wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I would take the least advantagous position

+1

This is the best approach to any rules issue during a game that I have found.

+2

I'm a fan of being able to play games after the one I'm currently in. So I almost always take the less advantageous results. I believe in the concept of FLGS, and you won't have a FLGS if you keep doing these things that happen to benefit you, even if it is 'accepted'.

+3

Agreed. Especially if it's player A's oversight, it should be on him to take responsibility for that as well as give player B the choice of what he/she would prefer to happen.

+4
This is accualy the sign of a surprisingly good sport.

If you're not playing with people you know, set some ground rules.

The easiest is:

-Dropped die don't count

-You have to declare what you're rolling
-Randomly rolling then messing up (ie rolling 5 die when you should roll 3, or rolling to hit for template) does not count no matter what. You have to be across the board with this.

-"Cocked die" (on their side) don't count if it is truly on it's side, and wasn't clearly going to land.

-For all disputes, roll a D6.