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Just curious on what smitty0305's Eldar list would score with a legitimate poll, not a fake one. No trolling please.

The original thread can be found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329677.page

Smitty0305 wrote:
HQ- 100
Autarch
Mandiblasters
Power Weapon
Fusion Gun

Troops- 968

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Elite- 585
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

Heavy Support- 345
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

Total- 1998 Points.

No list is unstoppable and certainly every list has weaknesses. This is a reasonable Mechdar list, its light on killing power, has limited ranged anti tank, has no assault threat at all and is still relatively fragile. Trying to assign number ratings to lists isn't very helpful, but as far as Eldar lists go I would rate it a 7-8, definitely room for improvement, but compared to good 5th edition era lists its probably only a 6. A fully tuned Mechdar list would probably be an 8 (as on your scale 10 is impossible to attain), all the 5th edition codices are a step above the older ones.

No Farseer is pretty strange, its not a double Autarch reserve list so not taking one is very unusual. The Autarch equipment is pretty pointless in any case, he has no counter assault units to run around with and is still stuck with a S3 power weapon in combat (and at T3 is asking for a power fist to the head).

The Storm Guardians aren't going to kill much with only 2 flamers and no Doom support. They still get smashed in combat so you are limited to jumping out of the Serpent and maybe burning a few things before dying horribly. A Warlock with Destructor makes them much more of a threat and with Doom as well they can actually threaten MEQ. Usually a mix of Dire Avengers (for cheap scoring transports) and Storm Guardians (for one use flamer goodness) works better.

3 Fire Dragons is nice, but with only Scatters on all your Serpents you only have the Prisms for providing anti tank from range. Fire Dragons short range tend to make them one use units, and mean can't drop vehicles until they are right on top of you. Its always better to stall vehicles on their side of the board, most of the time if they get to your side of the board they have done their jobs even if you kill them. This means mixing in some EML and Bright Lances on the Serpents.

it's a good list, but it has a couple of critical flaws that can be exploited by certain opponents in certain situations.

I gave it a 7.

You had me going there for a minute. I thought he might have created another account and started another thread lol.

That said I'd give the list a 6, partially for its cookie-cutter repetitiveness and partly for its lack of Spirit Stones in a list that needs to keep moving quickly to survive. The critical flaw is that it needs to be moving flat-out to be safe, but if its moving flat-out it cannot fire anything or disembark troops, so its a bit of a catch 22.

Reliable Eldar mech tactica would revolve around the Serpents of Fury strategy, using the infantry as the primary threat and the vehicles to block LoS to the infantry and add supporting fire. Any list that relies entirely on its vehicles to do all the work is flawed, even with vehicles as strong as Wave Serpents. A strong list will use all of its potential, not leave it sitting inside vehicles forever.

Tempest's Wrath might also give that list fits....roll a few 1's in a row on a bad luck streak and watch your precious Wave Serpents crash to the ground, possibly killing everyone inside if they moved flat-out and then see how well the thing performs

There is a way to beat this list. Try this list going second reserving everything:


HQ- 100
Autarch
Mandiblasters
Power Weapon
Fusion Gun

Troops- 968

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Warlock-Destructor
10 Storm Guardians- 2 Flamers
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lazerz.

Elite- 585
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Laser.

Heavy Support- 345
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

Total- 1998 Points.

Since I am a better general than the OP (of the other thread) I would obviously win every time.

Kinda what I figured, around a 7.5

Good, but not that good

Well the score is actually a 7 on the nose so no need to approximate up. But yea, good, but not that good.

Aldarionn wrote:
Reliable Eldar mech tactica would revolve around the Serpents of Fury strategy, using the infantry as the primary threat and the vehicles to block LoS to the infantry and add supporting fire. Any list that relies entirely on its vehicles to do all the work is flawed, even with vehicles as strong as Wave Serpents. A strong list will use all of its potential, not leave it sitting inside vehicles forever.

Tempest's Wrath might also give that list fits....roll a few 1's in a row on a bad luck streak and watch your precious Wave Serpents crash to the ground, possibly killing everyone inside if they moved flat-out and then see how well the thing performs

I totally disagree with this, a list which relies on vehicles to do most if not all the work is totally viable for many different armies (Razorspam comes to mind). For Eldar it actually tends to be the better option as their infantry is terrible, aside from Fire Dragons it doesn't put out much damage and is incredibly easy to kill outside of transports. Serpents of Fury used to keep them safe, but it doesn't really work effectively in 5th. The main thing though is that you actually have to focus your list properly to do it, there is no point taking that many Storm Guardians when ideally they are never going to be getting out of the transports.

Tempest's Wrath and Living Lightning are two of the main reasons you take a Farseer with Warding whenever possible, instead of potentially crippling your army you get to watch the Rune Priests kill themselves.

@ rivers64. It would be almost impossible to win against this list with a mirror matched list as everything has Scatter Lasers so your really going to struggle to kill anything. Admittedly anything outside a vehicle is going to die in one turn, but your going to spend the whole game trying to glance each other to death and then have massive vehicle pileups on the objectives.

I like it cuz its min maxed but i dislike it cuz its lacking psychic defense/powers and of course spirit stones and Holo fields

Powerguy wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:
Reliable Eldar mech tactica would revolve around the Serpents of Fury strategy, using the infantry as the primary threat and the vehicles to block LoS to the infantry and add supporting fire. Any list that relies entirely on its vehicles to do all the work is flawed, even with vehicles as strong as Wave Serpents. A strong list will use all of its potential, not leave it sitting inside vehicles forever.

Tempest's Wrath might also give that list fits....roll a few 1's in a row on a bad luck streak and watch your precious Wave Serpents crash to the ground, possibly killing everyone inside if they moved flat-out and then see how well the thing performs

I totally disagree with this, a list which relies on vehicles to do most if not all the work is totally viable for many different armies (Razorspam comes to mind). For Eldar it actually tends to be the better option as their infantry is terrible, aside from Fire Dragons it doesn't put out much damage and is incredibly easy to kill outside of transports. Serpents of Fury used to keep them safe, but it doesn't really work effectively in 5th. The main thing though is that you actually have to focus your list properly to do it, there is no point taking that many Storm Guardians when ideally they are never going to be getting out of the transports.

Tempest's Wrath and Living Lightning are two of the main reasons you take a Farseer with Warding whenever possible, instead of potentially crippling your army you get to watch the Rune Priests kill themselves.

@ rivers64. It would be almost impossible to win against this list with a mirror matched list as everything has Scatter Lasers so your really going to struggle to kill anything. Admittedly anything outside a vehicle is going to die in one turn, but your going to spend the whole game trying to glance each other to death and then have massive vehicle pileups on the objectives.

Holy crap that's the first actual response I've seen! Someone with an opinion! ZOMG!

I tend to play mixed Eldar when I play them at all, and I have a decent amount of fun with it. I find that they do well enough on the ground if you have proper support and a few vehicles to block LoS. With 18" assault weapons and Bladestorm, Dire Avengers can actually do significant damage holding objectives, especially when you run three units together, one of them with a Power Weapon, Shimmershield and Defend, along with an Avatar in a spearhead formation. I also like running a unit of Scropions with them as counter-assault. They out range Marines on the move, can survive their shooting and dish out plenty of damage, and they can hold their own in melee.

As for full mech lists, I run them from time to time and they work, but when I do I usually run Serpents of Fury with careful positioning. I find that mech Eldar is not for inexperienced players. It's harder than it looks to quarter an opponents list and take it down piece by piece without getting stomped into the ground doing it, but when it works it really works! I've been playing Eldar for quite a while and it took a hell of a lot of practice before I really had a feel for how to field their vehicles and balance speed and firepower. What you say is true though, and that style of play is a lot less effective than it was if you don't know what you are doing, mainly because of true line of sight. But I've always enjoyed a challenge.

isint this the same thread that was locked a few bits down?

on topic. no list is unbeatable. not one. every list has a weakness and can be defeated by any other list or any other player. its a fact of the game. otherwise it looks like a decent one anyway. i suggest using it to find out if its how yhou want to play.

One of the most effective and efficiënt ways to play Eldar, not mutch room for improvement (but, what is that Autarch doing in this list? Bumrush opponent for a 2nd turn alpha strike. Why reserve this army?). The Eldar Codex has it's limitations though, so I voted a 7.

Armys that would wipe this list easy.

1) Nob bike with 2 warboss on bikes
2) Death wing with land raiders
3) Plague marine with possessed land raiders
4) Guard with hydra flak tanks
5) 9 lemam russ battle tanks with LC and camo netting

The HQ is mediocre at best. The serpents don't have stones so can be slowed down relativly easily and the troops inside are very fragile with VERY limited range. 3 units of Dragons is overkill. You're rarely going to need to take down 3 landraiders. Other than that its not too bad, other than being mind numbingly boring.

Well, it has too less killing power. I'd give it a 7.

Hmm...thinking about the list and what I would change in it, this is what I came up with, in a nutshell...

Take away 3rd Fire Dragon unit and their transport to fill in the points I am missing to do what I want.

Then switch one Storm Guardian unit for 5 Dire Avengers and a Guide Seer. Switch the 3rd Prism for a long-range gunboat Falcon. Switch another Storm Guardian unit for a full unit of DAs. And yet again switch another SG and their transport for 6 jetbikes with Embolden Warlock. Take away all upgrades on the Autarch, give him jetbike and Reaper launcher for long-range harrasment and put him in with the jetbikes. And maybe, just maybe, I'd put in a squad of outflanking Striking Scorpions. Because this list has problems vs effective IG and Tau gunline lists, they would help in that regard.

I don't like that there are no War walkers in this list, but you can't have everything.


EDIT: Forgot to add, I put Brightlances on the DA and SG Serpents and Spirit stones on all vehicles.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:Armys that would wipe this list easy.

1) Nob bike with 2 warboss on bikes
2) Death wing with land raiders
3) Plague marine with possessed land raiders
4) Guard with hydra flak tanks
5) 9 lemam russ battle tanks with LC and camo netting

By All means, Please write me an Eldar List that counters 9 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, and you will find out the meaning of the original Post. Congradulations sir, you have been trolled.


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Gorechild wrote:The HQ is mediocre at best. The serpents don't have stones so can be slowed down relativly easily and the troops inside are very fragile with VERY limited range. 3 units of Dragons is overkill. You're rarely going to need to take down 3 landraiders. Other than that its not too bad, other than being mind numbingly boring.

I assure you that Mathmatically an Autarch will do more in this list than a farseer would. Everything wounds on a 2, except for the templates. I cant justify doom for 7 wounds against space marines.

Serpents Dont Need Stones, Its mathmatically a WASTE OF POINTS. The Chance of them penetrating, and rolling a 2, is less than 1%. Im not spending points on a 1% scenario and I dont know any good eldar player that would. If you can mathmatically show me that stones on 10 Grav Tanks would be a good use of points go ahead, but mathmatically you cant slow down Wave Serpents "easily" the percent is very low, espeically for 10.

3 Units of Fire Dragons is not over kill. Any Good army at 2k points will have Mech Spam and my Fire dragons will destroy many Tanks. 3 Firedragon Squads is pretty normal in eldar lists.




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wuestenfux wrote:Well, it has too less killing power. I'd give it a 7.

Thats been posted on this thread alot, Can you please elaborate. I thought that most units in the list had alot of "killing power".

While I think I may very well have a ("dislike"***) for Smitty, this wasn't right to bring up, that thread was closed for a reason, this will not end well. (Picture? Anyone? Anyone at all?)

Yes, we all agree, rather standard, okay list, but it has its fallacies, I think we should all move along.

(Also, I got a kick out of the comment about 9 leman russes besting this list.)

I smacked myself around when I saw him declaring stones a waste of points mathematically.

Araenion wrote:Hmm...thinking about the list and what I would change in it, this is what I came up with, in a nutshell...

Take away 3rd Fire Dragon unit and their transport to fill in the points I am missing to do what I want.

Then switch one Storm Guardian unit for 5 Dire Avengers and a Guide Seer. Switch the 3rd Prism for a long-range gunboat Falcon. Switch another Storm Guardian unit for a full unit of DAs. And yet again switch another SG and their transport for 6 jetbikes with Embolden Warlock. Take away all upgrades on the Autarch, give him jetbike and Reaper launcher for long-range harrasment and put him in with the jetbikes. And maybe, just maybe, I'd put in a squad of outflanking Striking Scorpions. Because this list has problems vs effective IG and Tau gunline lists, they would help in that regard.

I don't like that there are no War walkers in this list, but you can't have everything.


EDIT: Forgot to add, I put Brightlances on the DA and SG Serpents and Spirit stones on all vehicles.

I do appreciate the post, as it is a good post. I feel that with these changes the list would be all right, but wouldnt function as a unit. The List I have now does support eachother, and alot of the changes you made are nice, but dont support eachother.

Taking away a 3rd Fire Dragon Squad means that I loose the biggest part of my anti Mech. Ok Suggestion but I dont like where the points went.
5 Dire Avengers and a Guide seer, Id rather have 3 Flamer templates.
Long-Range gunboat Falcon with what a Bright Lance? Ok but I dont see why. That would cost 155 points as oposed to a prism thats 115.
10 Dire Avengers, bladestormed cause 30 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds with ap5. 10 Storm Guardians cause 30 automatic hits and 15 wounds ap4. Storm Guardians are cheaper. Explain to me why you like dire avengers more.
6 Jetbikes and an Embolden warlock are handy dont get me wrong, but why do I need the Extra mobility with 10 Grav Tanks? I run Sam Ham with 50 Jetbikes and I know what they can do, and its not huge.
Autarch suggestion seeems kinda bad.
Outflanking Striking Scorpians. Agaisnt Imperial Guard they might do something. Against any other mechanized army they wouldnt do anything.

Also adding 2 Bright Lances on wave serpents costs 80 points. A Squad of Fire Dragons costs 80 points. Why wouldnt you go with the 5 shots?



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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:While I think I may very well have a ("dislike"***) for Smitty, this wasn't right to bring up, that thread was closed for a reason, this will not end well. (Picture? Anyone? Anyone at all?)

Yes, we all agree, rather standard, okay list, but it has its fallacies, I think we should all move along.

(Also, I got a kick out of the comment about 9 leman russes besting this list.)

I smacked myself around when I saw him declaring stones a waste of points mathematically.

He Asked permission to post the thread and I said it was fine.

As far as your dislike for me, If I got trolled as hard as you id probably dislike the person as well.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:While I think I may very well have a ("dislike"***) for Smitty, this wasn't right to bring up, that thread was closed for a reason, this will not end well. (Picture? Anyone? Anyone at all?)

I locked the first thread. I am okay with this one staying open as long as people keep their debate polite and don't make it personal.

The list is redundant and it's nice to see such redundancy at 2k pts. My counterpoint to this army is anyone taking armor 13+ against this.

A vehicle that has AV 13+ has at least a couple turns before you deliver the dragons. Most of the vehicles with AV13 have the ability themselves to kill the dragons (Preds, vindis, ironclads, hammerheads, land raiders (of all fashions, mind you), any leman russ, battlewagons, etc)

this is the scary part of using meltas as your reliable anti AV13+. It simply does not work every time and you are not spending the points on a guiding farseer to really ensure that the target gets hit and dies. It is not usually required in lists but in an unforgiving world, if they dont land a solid shot, you can easily now get overpowered.

I think in the end, you are running a min/maxed armored force with a couple of lacking qualities that Tau, IG, Orks, Blood Angles, Nids, and Wolves can all exploit with a well-rounded list. S6 en mass is not an ideal world to be playing with. The en mass armor value that you see most often is 12 (11 for vanilla marines) and S6 does not cut it. S7 long range weapons are what is needed nowadays to even penetrate armor and you really do need some kind of lance in this list or you will get sucker punched so hard by AV14 that a Land Raider can quite literally run straight at you with no fear at all. My Blood Angel list with 6 AV13 tanks will sit back and tear you apart. A vulkan's ironclads will stand guard against your dragons.

There are a lot of factors at a 2000 point level where you have to consider that S6 is nice, but does not make the cut in a lot of different armies on some pretty staple ideas for each army.

To me, there is a need for lances and there is a reason that they made it a tad easier for the new DE to get some (including the blasters for them) and I think the writers of the book realized that.

Meltas cannot be your only hope, especially in an army that can not even sit in their transport to shoot. It is out of the question.

I realize you still have Fire Prisms but vehicles do not survive too long that are needed for long range fire support, especially if you are calling on second turn, your opponent will make you sit in the open with those things. I think the better heavy slots truly are the war walkers with 1 equipped with lances and the others with scatter lazers in each squad of three. Especially if you are running an autarch, you must have considered this outflanking unit.


Overall impression, I give ya a 6, because at 2k pts you need to up your anti-heavy tank game.

Id really like to see a Batrep of this army - it looks tough. Enough troops, enough AT and Anti-horde and mobility. I say enough because of the transport durability.

Smitty0305 wrote:Taking away a 3rd Fire Dragon Squad means that I loose the biggest part of my anti Mech. Ok Suggestion but I dont like where the points went.
5 Dire Avengers and a Guide seer, Id rather have 3 Flamer templates.

I have that covered. Why would I want 4 of them, though?

Smitty0305 wrote:Long-Range gunboat Falcon with what a Bright Lance? Ok but I dont see why. That would cost 155 points as oposed to a prism thats 115.
10 Dire Avengers, bladestormed cause 30 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds with ap5. 10 Storm Guardians cause 30 automatic hits and 15 wounds ap4. Storm Guardians are cheaper. Explain to me why you like dire avengers more.

It looks like you're thinking in a bubble. Correct, your Prism costs less, but just how durable is it? From personal experience, a Holofield Falcon sitting in cover, shooting 3 TL S8 shots from 48" away is seen as a bigger threat than Fire Prisms by far. It might actually draw enough fire away from your Dragon Serpents that they won't die. I also don't like Avengers "more". I just like them more than a 2nd, 3rd and 4th Storm Guardian squad.

Smitty0305 wrote:6 Jetbikes and an Embolden warlock are handy dont get me wrong, but why do I need the Extra mobility with 10 Grav Tanks? I run Sam Ham with 50 Jetbikes and I know what they can do, and its not huge.

Because 6 eldar jetbikes are harder to destroy than a Grav tank. And because the only way to rob this scoring unit of its mobility is to wipe it off the table. One lucky shot and your SGs are walking.

Smitty0305 wrote:Autarch suggestion seeems kinda bad.
Outflanking Striking Scorpians. Agaisnt Imperial Guard they might do something. Against any other mechanized army they wouldnt do anything.

My Autarch suggestion at least does "something". It can engage in shooting with a unit of Longfangs and even Tyrannid MCs from far away and hide from retaliation. Your Autarch will either stay in the can for the entire game or die gloriously to even remotely decent CC squad. And Striking Scorpions is just a maybe, if I know I'll face a lot of static gunlines. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

Smitty0305 wrote:Also adding 2 Bright Lances on wave serpents costs 80 points. A Squad of Fire Dragons costs 80 points. Why wouldnt you go with the 5 shots?

Hardly that. It costs 40 points more than 2 TL scatterlasers you originally had. Thing is, I like everything in my army to threaten my opponent. Against SM, Brightlance can pop his Land Raider. That means that even if he shuts down both my Prisms, I still have a chance of doing something to him. It's not a very big chance, but as long as its there, my opponent might make a mistake in his target-priority. And that's why everything must be a threat to anything in my lists. There are better ways to field S6 shots than Wave Serpents.

The list you came up with is very much "let's go in, do what we can and then die.". Half of your army needs to get into assault range while being completely useless in assault themselves. Apart from 3 squishy Prisms, you have no long-range support. Nothing that will keep the pressure off your forward ranks. Don't fool yourself, those Dragons and SGs will die. Usually, that is their objective. Soften the target so other sturdier units can carry the game to the end. In your list, you have no other units to do that. That's its weakness and one that any smart player would easily see and exploit.

So ur saying to add 3 bright lances to serpents.

Thats fine but ive been under the impression that bls werent worth the points on a bs3 platform.

As far as the lances on walkers I disagree.

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wuestenfux wrote:Well, it has too less killing power. I'd give it a 7.



Thats been posted on this thread alot, Can you please elaborate. I thought that most units in the list had alot of "killing power".

Well, it has killing power at first sight, but FDs can be easily wiped out once they disembarked and tanks can be easily shaken so that they'll not shoot in the next round.

i would like to see how this list will be pwned by Necron with 2+ Monolith's
all opponents with lots of vehicles is need - just blow up 3 unprotected serpents with Dragoons, and thats all.

Someone said zomg its wound anything on 2+ !!! oO and? opponent just do some 3+\2+ saves and all this list shooting go to nowhere..
SW with 2x5 missiles will just laugh
list is really far from being Unstoppable\Titanic.. so just 5 on the poll.

Since I dont play Eldar Id play Mech IG against it:

Command Squad with 3 MG's, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet
4 Veteran Squads, Demolitions, Chimera, 3 FL, SGT with PW
2 Veteran Squads with 3 PG's
2 Stormtrooper Squads with 2 PG's
3 Vendettas
3 Hydras with Camo netting

I dont think we can help this guy. Try playing some games and see how mathhammer fails on the bored.

Smitty0305 wrote:Serpents Dont Need Stones, Its mathmatically a WASTE OF POINTS. The Chance of them penetrating, and rolling a 2, is less than 1%. Im not spending points on a 1% scenario and I dont know any good eldar player that would. If you can mathmatically show me that stones on 10 Grav Tanks would be a good use of points go ahead, but mathmatically you cant slow down Wave Serpents "easily" the percent is very low, espeically for 10.

Firstly there are more ways to shake a vehicle than penetrating and rolling a 2, glancing and rolling a 4 does the same (glancing with AP1 and rolling a 3, using any one of the multitude of weapons that glance/pen a vehicle on a set value) and glancing av12 isn't hard. I'm not saying to put them on all 10 vehicles, that would be a waste, but the dragons could do with it as a minimum.


As yorkskargrimironklaw said, I dont think you can really help somone who's purely relying on maths and can't seem to take many comments on board.

Math is a strong anchor. This list is good, though I think with game experience he will find tweaks that need to be made. Statistics are good for establishing trends and determining target priority but mission requirements force more considerations.

It can pounce on infantry with flamers and scatter lazers. And has the mobilty and target saturation to compete against other transport-spam armies. Its minor weakness is its vulnerable dedicated AV13+ AT platforms. With that said - it has 6 of them and 3 of them can pull double-duty). If the Prisms were more rugged this list would seriously rock. As it is, in the hands of a skilled general, I think this list is dominant as I would feel confident playing it at tournies. I like that its plan b (reserving everything) is supported nicely by the Autarch.

Would I like playing against it - no. Would I anyways - hell yeah. Out of the 4 armies I have (guard, bugs, smurfs and orks) I dont think any of them would be on the same level list-wise. Id focus on mission and out-general him.

Gaming-wise - I can think of little worse than playing against a list like this in the hands of a general that relies on net-spamming or statistics AND has terrible sportmanship. Of course if it isnt painted to a decent level - it would be even worse. Just a miserable experience overall. Hopefully - he wouldnt be any of these.