Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If they always attack last in combat, why do they have an initiative of seven? Is that so it makes them harder to mowed down in a sweeping advance?

Side note: Initially the join us rule seemed a little over powered (since they get to swell their ranks) I was going to say, would a stipulation like the Gift of Chaos and Chaos Spawn and the Tervigon be needed? (Like you can't spawn anymore if you don't have the models for it?)

Because you're looking at their leadership cost. Their initiative is 1, the text doesn't line up properly.

Plague Zombies will not be going in the Codex. Apologies, but they would be a 0-1 choice for a single warband, alongside (arguably) gimmicky rules and competitiveness, as well as being uncommon in fluff, they would most likely be a rare unit who I'd rather not give up another army list slot for.
Furthermore, I now struggle to see what Plague Zombies would add to the army; Death Guard don't exactly need more anti-infantry, whilst you could just get scoring (and potentially Anti-tank) heretics for a similar cost, or more durable and powerful Lesser Daemons who can also score.
As I said, Plague Zombies will not be put back into the Codex.

What about the Dread Claw, could it be workable?

Also, Sorry to re-post, but can you answer my earlier question? Quoted here for reference.

Woodbok wrote:Also, does the Rhino have fire points? Or was that deliberately left out so you had to buy Open-Topped?

And mine if you can, its not important though.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.

woodbok wrote:Also, Sorry to re-post, but can you answer my earlier question? Quoted here for reference.

Woodbok wrote:Also, does the Rhino have fire points? Or was that deliberately left out so you had to buy Open-Topped?

No worries, man, the re-post is absolutely fine and I REALLY appreciate the feedback, thanks.
I was going to answer it by correcting it in the next PDF update (maybe tomorrow) but basically, yeah, that was an omission/mistake and has been corrected to 2 fire points.
Thanks!

iproxtaco wrote:What about the Dread Claw, could it be workable?

I think it could be barely workable, but even so, it's a tricky implementation, would require an additional model and has it's own fluff issues (such as it's rate of appearance). I'll think about it man, but I wouldn't hold your breath!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:And mine if you can, its not important though.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.

No, you're reading it right. My thinking was that Sorcerers aren't typically the head honcho of a warband as it were (except for the exception, TS), whilst they are obviously a solid in-game choice, it would enable more reason for Lords and the like.
Partially, it's my personal point of view, but also I think it's somewhat justified and shouldn't make a huge impact on gameplay.
Thanks again for the feedback 'taco.

Forge World has a model and rules come to think of it, see if I can find my copy of Imperial Armour Apocalypse.

I can see the reasoning now, I'm not bothered by it, it would have just been a personal preference from my own fluff point of view, but I can see that most other Legions would likely never have a Sorcerer as their leader but just as an adviser, like Sindri.

I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.
HQ
Lord, jump pack, 2 Lightning claws, mark of slaanesh, Icon of the emperors children, Chaos armour.

ELITES
6 chosen, 5 melta guns, infiltrate.
6 chosen, 5 melta guns, infiltrate.

TROOPS
6 noise marines, blast master, free champion, power fist.
rhino
6 noise marines, blast master, free champion, power fist.
rhino
6 noise marines, blast master, free champion, power fist.
rhino
6 noise marines, blast master, free champion, power fist.
rhino
6 noise marines, blast master, free champion, power fist.
rhino

FAST ATTACK
6 raptors, melta gun, champion with power fist.

The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.

how many points?

1750. I should be playing an eldar player. Today, so I will post how it goes

sounds and looks good,

loving the slaaneshi theme

Just Dave wrote:Plague Zombies will not be going in the Codex. Apologies, but they would be a 0-1 choice for a single warband, alongside (arguably) gimmicky rules and competitiveness, as well as being uncommon in fluff, they would most likely be a rare unit who I'd rather not give up another army list slot for.
Furthermore, I now struggle to see what Plague Zombies would add to the army; Death Guard don't exactly need more anti-infantry, whilst you could just get scoring (and potentially Anti-tank) heretics for a similar cost, or more durable and powerful Lesser Daemons who can also score.
As I said, Plague Zombies will not be put back into the Codex.

Shame tbh, I'll prob still use this codex, and use zombies for freindly games, they would be fun, but wether they will be competitive or useless, ill have to play test them. Speaking of which, I got a box of choas havoks unopened and 30 pirate zombies un made from the market for 4 euro. Sorted

So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.

A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.

For 285 points he better be good.

But, that's a lot of points into a model that can Easily be shot down be lasannons.

I'm going to be testing this list on the weekend against a all World Eaters list, Its going to get bloody

HQ
Chaos Lord........................................................................145
Icon of the renegade - Pair of lightning claws - Unholy Might

Greater Daemon of Khorne..........................................................175

Elites
Chaos Chosen......................................................................197
6 Chosen - 1 w/Pair of Lightning claws - 2 w/ power weapons - 2 w/flamers

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................145
Pair of CC weapons - Heavy flamer - MOK

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................120
Helfire Cannon - Heavy flamer


Troops
Chaos Space Marines...............................................................190
10 Marines - 2 w/Plasmaguns - Campion

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Lesser Daemons of Khorne..........................................................110
10 Bloodletters


Heavy Support
Havoc Squad.......................................................................120
5 Havocs - Plasmacannon - Multimelta - Autocannon

1502 points

woodbok wrote:I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.

------

The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.

You say you used this list already? How did you find it was? The list and Codex, that is...
I imagine you'll do pretty well considering the W/L ratio in your sig!

Toastedandy wrote:

Shame tbh, I'll prob still use this codex, and use zombies for freindly games, they would be fun, but wether they will be competitive or useless, ill have to play test them. Speaking of which, I got a box of choas havoks unopened and 30 pirate zombies un made from the market for 4 euro. Sorted

4 euros?! Is that all?! Damn.

Obviously you're welcome to use the list man and if you play with it then obviously it's a friendly game, so ofc you could use Plague Zombies if you want to! Cheers man.

Slayersan wrote: So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.

A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.

Thanks A LOT for the feedback man and the compliments regarding the 'dex itself.
Are you saying both DP's were set-up in that way? Because that's over 500pts right there; of a 1500pts army! I can understand your disliking it, seriously, that's a powerful combination (bet you love your friend now! ), but then again, as you said, that's A LOT of points. More expensive than even the Swarmlord or Mephiston!
Ultimately, this guy still only has a 5++ (now), so heavy weapons should tear through him, as could many tougher assault units, such as TH/SS termies, beast-packs etc. whilst at 285pts each, their shouldn't be a vast number of other models to help saturation from being targeted in such a manner.
Similarly, the DW can also wound the prince 1/6 times, as well as PotW potentially self-harming him...

He's clearly very deadly, but he's also expensive and flawed.
I'm not sure how bad the situation really is to be honest, however you have clearly provided a genuine and worthy concern, so I'm wondering how it could be balanced.
Possibly a Daemon Weapon could be so the player could not take it alongside a gift of chaos? Admittedly, it wouldn't solve the problem of Psychic Powers & the DW, but it would help lower his damage potential? Particularly charging into cover?

Thanks again for the feedback and play-testing man, I appreciate it!

Toastedandy wrote:I'm going to be testing this list on the weekend against a all World Eaters list, Its going to get bloody

HQ
Chaos Lord........................................................................145
Icon of the renegade - Pair of lightning claws - Unholy Might

Greater Daemon of Khorne..........................................................175

Elites
Chaos Chosen......................................................................197
6 Chosen - 1 w/Pair of Lightning claws - 2 w/ power weapons - 2 w/flamers

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................145
Pair of CC weapons - Heavy flamer - MOK

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................120
Helfire Cannon - Heavy flamer


Troops
Chaos Space Marines...............................................................190
10 Marines - 2 w/Plasmaguns - Campion

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Lesser Daemons of Khorne..........................................................110
10 Bloodletters


Heavy Support
Havoc Squad.......................................................................120
5 Havocs - Plasmacannon - Multimelta - Autocannon

1502 points

Great! Good luck man; I look forward to hearing how it goes! Gonna be messy.

2 pointers though:
- Bloodletters (Lesser Daemons with MoK) are 16pts each (they can't have warband Icons and therefore don't gain the -5pts mark cost - I'll clarify this in the PDF.
- You don't actually appear to have a method of summoning the Bloodletters (no icons)...

Good luck man, please provide feedback if you can!

Just Dave wrote:

woodbok wrote:I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.

------

The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.

You say you used this list already? How did you find it was? The list and Codex, that is...
I imagine you'll do pretty well considering the W/L ratio in your sig!

Whoops, Ment to say I will use it. I'm playing in around half an hour or so.

Also, the reason I win so much is because I play to win, and don't take crappy lists. (Yes, even necrons can win )

EDIT: I'm playing my brother, and he's using eldar. The list is here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My game went downhill from the start. He had 9 AV12 Vehicles, and with AP- from the blastmasters puts me down. The chosen did fantastical well though, as normal.

Slayersan wrote: So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.

A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.

Grey Knights? Seriously?

So you never charged him [makes him initiative 1], or used psychotroke grenades to possibly make you auto-hit him, or reduce him to only 1 attack period, or make him I1? And statistically a squad or two shooting at him should bring him down, especially if you assaulted afterwards.

Or get in cover? He doesn't have grenades, he'd be Initiative 1 when he charged you. Or cast Sanctuary, making him initiative 1 when he charged? Or throw Crowe at one, so they die if they kill Crowe as long as you can pass a psychic test?

I just....I...I can't believe you couldn't kill them. You realize in the current codex I can take a daemon prince that, while not as killy as that, could still have 5 attacks on the charge and re-roll them all, but I'd also have an extra 125 points of stuff [that's almost a predator tank right there] to use to shoot your army? That's almost 5 noisemarines with a S5 AP3 doomsiren right there, I mean seriously. And my prince would be just as "hard to kill" as his prince.

I think this was a gameplay issue. The fact that if I took my current army list, but used princes from this codex, I'd have just as much prince survivability against most armies out there but I'd be missing 260 points of other troops I would have had using the current codex just seems off to me. They should be more survivable, or cheaper, or both.



Now, as for the dreadclaw - make it a drop pod, but not open-topped, and rather than sit there immobile shooting, make it become a walker after it lands. No DCCW, just give it several S5 or 6 attacks that don't ignore armor saves, but have it able to move and assault. With no fleet and not ignoring armor saves, and no gun, it shouldn't really cost that many more points than a drop pod. Also, to represent the different way it deploys [they are closed when they land, and only open on the bottom] allow the option for the guys inside to NOT disembark the turn it lands, staying in the drop pod as an AV12 vehicle with no fire points but access points all around it.

This gives the chaos guys the option of staying inside in case maybe the enemy has lots of guns, or they got some bad reserve rolls that turn, or want to just sit on an objective in an AV12 protective shell. They can then disembark and move and assault the next turn if they want, or even stay inside while it walks around. It'd be unique - the first walker transport! Also allow them to disembark in the space occupied by the dreadclaw, in case it gets surrounded and destroyed [they just drop out the bottom].

That sounds like a lot of special rules, but it's really not. It lands like a drop pod but stays closed. Guys can get out like a normal drop pod or stay inside. After landing it's a walker [yep a walker transport even]. Has access points all around but they can also disembark in the space occupied by the dreadclaw if needed.

Ooooo, if you want to make things more complicated [I'm basically predicting FAQ questions as I make this thing] they can disembark directly into an assault, if they're inside while it's engaged. That'd be a very unique way for chaos to deliver an assault army! Charge a bunch of AV12 walkers that deepstruck last turn into cc, then next turn disembark directly into the assault. That sounds cool!

In response to Spellbound

The demon prince can have assault grenades through the Demonic speed upgrade which my opponent took. Since the demon prince has wings and can move 12" assault 6" It was far easier for him to assult me then for me to assault him. Lastly, my friend had 2 demon princes, 1 of them crowe took care of but that leaves 1 left. I will agree I should of done better, Ill chalk it up to not really being too familiar with what this fandex can do so I was cutoff guard with some of the moves my opponent made.

Anyone want to give me some help with my list?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/379338.page#2999610

I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick

ZephyrRey wrote:I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick

Definitely on the blastmaster.

Yeah, play Dawn of War: Retribution and tell me blastmasters have no penetration potential

I would not compare Dawn of War to Warhammer 40k, other than the fact that they use the same units, not much else is actually all that similar...

But anti-horde without even the ability to deny a basic GeQ save is no anti-horde at all, and that is what I believe NMs were made for

Spellbound wrote:Now, as for the dreadclaw...

A few problems I have with this idea is that A) it's not actually a walker, B) it doesn't represent it's danger to its occupants and C) doesn't represent the rarity of the thing (i.e. Renegades at least shouldn't be able to use it, rare within Legions etc.).
Amongst other, these are some of the reasons that the Dreadclaw isn't included in the fandex and I don't see it being so...

ZephyrRey wrote:I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick

I think realistically, the Sonic Weaponry should be something like AP2, as it largely appears to bypass armour and mess with the targets innards. The Sonic Weapons are - as you identified - intended for anti-horde, which they should still excel at. I'll do some basic math-hammer as to it's potential against MeQs & GeQ's Vs. existing sonic weaponry and boltguns.

My reasoning behind the AP- was to balance with its RoF, and how it can put out twice as many shots as the Boltgun and fire it's full range at all times.
Now for the maths; if this turns out to make the current weapons look bad, I'll change it.

(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Heavy variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 3.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 1.11 (unsaved) wounds

(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Assault variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 6.66)
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 5.55)
Boltgun - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 3.33)

(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Heavy variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 11.85 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 13.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds

(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Assault variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 5.92 (unsaved) wounds (total - 17.77)
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 22.11)
Boltgun - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 13.22)

----

Judging from feedback then, it does appear that the Sonic Blaster does need a boost.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does pose a question regarding the Blast Master however, as I'm reluctant for it to be twice as good against vehicles and MeQ's. Chances are it'll be:
- Assault 4 - Str6, AP5
- Heavy 5 - Str6, AP4

Better than it currently is against standard infantry, but worse against vehicles. Flexibility wise, I'm sure many will complain, but then again, it's still capable of taking out light vehicles and frankly Sonic Weaponry should excel against infantry even at the cost of anti-armour.

I agree entirely with your judgements. I didnt notice that the heavy version was 4 shots a piece (skimming loses focus) so i can see why you were hesitant to give an ap value. I personally like the ap at 5 - good as the anti-horde, but still just as effective against anything with a 4+/better

I also like the blastmaster here. Granted, not a big fan of blastmasters in general, but there you go

Um... actually old school forgeworld rules had it as a walker after it landed. The "fins" on the sides are articulate - they have hydraulics at the top that help it move up and down - they could easily move outward as well.

Current forgeworld rules make it able to lift off and count as a flyer, so units can re-embark [even dreadnoughts] and then start flying around.

And they uh.... they most CERTAINLY don't have a shortage of dreadclaws. Battlefleet gothic gives every single ship with carrying capacity has dreadclaw assault boats and basically has an "unlimited" number. If you want to restrict the numbers, then limit which units can use them. But I do think they should be in the codex.

Just Dave wrote:

Judging from feedback then, it does appear that the Sonic Blaster does need a boost.

AP- really lets you down when against guard or orks.

Just Dave wrote:
Does pose a question regarding the Blast Master however, as I'm reluctant for it to be twice as good against vehicles and MeQ's. Chances are it'll be:
- Assault 4 - Str6, AP5
- Heavy 5 - Str6, AP4

I prefer this Blastmaster a lot better. Little bit more mathhammer for you.
V GeQ: Heavy
Sonic blaster: 1.19 dead per sonic blaster.
Blastmaster: 2.78 dead per Blastmaster.
V GeQ: assault
Sonic blaster: 0.59
Blastmaster: 2.22