Does evil ever win?

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**Kanluwen**

Lynata wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You really need to actually start reading the things you link. Because it's pretty clear they're not supporting your continual refutation of Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games.
And mind telling me how that is so instead of just going "NO U"? Apparently, you're such a better reader than I am. Feel free to enlighten me with your wisdom.

Reread Thorpe's blog. Notice what he says about how the studio "worked with Black Library".
Profit!

Kanluwen wrote:Since this seems to go over your head, as usual, [...]
You really should stop coming off as oh-so-superior and all-knowing, and most of all insulting. Such potshots are both as unnecessary as they are unconstructive.

Then perhaps rather than taking every chance you can to try disagreeing or one-upping my posts, try actually comprehending. If you think I'm taking potshots, you're quite mistaken. If I were to take potshots, they'd be much lower blows.

Kanluwen wrote:Both instances feature over the top fluff, just one gets whined about because people dislike the author.
Well, I guess your personal opinion just deviates from "the masses". But of course it's the masses that must be wrong, yes?

It's like this isn't registering with you.

My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.

**Lynata**

Kanluwen wrote:Reread Thorpe's blog. Notice what he says about how the studio "worked with Black Library".
Profit!

I suggest you go read again and - hopefully - notice what he says about:
"there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books"

Which is exactly mirroring what other people - such as GW's own Head of Publishing (-> "alternative version of the respective worlds"

- have said.

In your words, "it's like this isn't registering with you".

Kanluwen wrote:If I were to take potshots, they'd be much lower blows.

I guess our understanding of etiquette is just very different, then. I'll try to adapt to your insulting attitude.

Kanluwen wrote:My entire point was that people have bias.

Big news. That doesn't mean that it's in any way surprising that people get riled up over things they perceive as wrong - and the number of people voicing their protest is usually (not always) a good indicator of the "level of fault", as this reflects the obviousness of a piece of writing deviating from the setting as it had been described before.

Without doubt the internet does a lot to, shall we say, "multiply" the Wardbash (perhaps even to undeserved levels in some cases), but that changes nothing about his original ideas themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes [...]

Not really. As I pointed out (actually, you yourself have as well) it can be perfectly explained by saying "Orks" (and most daemons in 40k are not as powerful as in most other settings anyways). When you have a problem with that, you have a problem with 40k as a whole. Which is a different topic.

**Kanluwen**

Gav Thorpe wrote:For the most part these discussions revolved around extrapolations by the authors, extending areas of the backgrounds into subjects that were not relevant to the material needed for tabletop wargames – ‘Does this sound right?’ or ‘Is this how it would work?’. It was rare that we would be passed anything that was so hideously off-the-mark that the story or novel was completely verboten (“we’ve had this story about squats…”). Far from being the black jackboot of authoritarianism, I like to think that we provided possible solutions to problems that cropped up. Sometimes an author or an editor might have a situation they need resolved and would ask for background-friendly suggestions. For instance, an author might want orks invading a moon, but was not sure how the greenies would operate on an airless world. Rather than say that would never happen, we would have a think about it and provided some viable answers (probably something with mobile forcefields in this case…).

I'm sorry, you were saying something about how there was "no pressure to make it fit"?

"Background friendly suggestions" seems to say otherwise.

And you continually tout that line about "nothing and everything is canon". That was the head of publishing talking to a brand new author, when asked about if he should or should not feel the need to "build upon" established works.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gav Thorpe wrote:Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.
Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.

In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.

I'm just going to leave that there.

**Lynata**

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sorry, you were saying something about how there was "no pressure to make it fit"? "Background friendly suggestions" seems to say otherwise.

Um, no? That GW occasionally gives suggestions to BL authors has no relevance whatsoever regarding the canonicity of the end result. Because you, as the reader, do not know which parts come from GW and which were made up by the author.

If there was pressure to make it fit, we wouldn't have ended up with Multilaser-Marines, backflipping Terminators or - yes - entire Orders of Sisters getting corrupted. Daemonifuge also claims that the Ecclesiarchy gets its own battleships, by the way. Is this canon, too?

Kanluwen wrote:And you continually tout that line about "nothing and everything is canon". That was the head of publishing talking to a brand new author, when asked about if he should or should not feel the need to "build upon" established works.

You're mixing things up.

The Head of Publishing didn't say "nothing and everything is canon" (that was a different BL author, Marc Gascogne iirc.

In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.

Analysis:
+ BL authors tend to interpret GW canon differently, so contradictions arise
+ GW canon should ideally be adhered to, but mistakes happen (also see Gav Thorpe's blog regarding authors with "wobbly moments")
+ BL books cannot establish canon by themselves, for there is no obligation for BL authors to adhere to facts in other BL books (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog where he freely admits to make use of this liberty)
+ similarly, when BL books cannot establish canon, they cannot override GW canon (else it would require other BL authors to stick to this, which isn't the case, see above)

It's a formula of consecutive facts. In the words you so often like to use, "this isn't difficult to understand".

Kanluwen wrote:I'm just going to leave that there.

Do this. And read the last part again, as apparently you still haven't done that.

**Brother Coa**

Kanluwen wrote:
My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.

What, army's were broken before Ward?
I thought until him that army's were well balanced ( except Tau Fish of Fury ).

**TrollPie**

Brother Coa wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.

What, army's were broken before Ward?
I thought until him that army's were well balanced ( except Tau Fish of Fury ).

**KamikazeCanuck**

Big red letters=win.

**Fairfeldia**

i don't see the point of the big red letters, your making a point, we understand that, if we can't read it correctly we will zoom in, or are you shouting?

because shouting means your getting grouchy and that its time to turn the internet off

**DarknessEternal**

Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.

Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.

They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.

**im2randomghgh**

Any chaos-viewpoint book. The reason most of the books have the imperials win is that it is from the imperials viewpoint. Oh, dead men walking necrons won, forgot that. Anyways, It is always the person who's viewpoint the book is written in who wins.

Storm of Iron was so good because you really didn't know-it was written from chaos AND imperial perspectives.

The chaos force was stronger, but the imperial kept getting lucky (the missile strike, IF reinforcements [IF own], death of the Dies Irae etc.), and generally chaos was just pretty damn unlucky (except for killing all the imperial titans and the mechanicus crushing most of the Guard in the tunnels)

I think SoI needed a sequel, because there was a conspiracy at the end that was hinted at (the mechanicus thing) that left me hanging.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.

Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.

They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.

No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.

**Hazard30**

Ok I must say the tuska argument is a horrible one. Tuska got his ork hide handed to him. The daemon was just having his fun. The only reason he got the lucky shot is because of the wierdboys phycic shot. Where-as Diago is the Rambo of the Warp...he just tools daemons on there own turf(and makes it seem easy). Tuska in no way sounds over-the-top in terms of fluff...Diago does.

Which goes full circle saying the daemons can't even beat good on there own turf. Even when they do win they tend to lose in the long run. I keep hearing "the imperium is losing planets and slowly losing" but I don't actually see it happening, or read it in many books.

**JamesMclaren123**

DarknessEternal wrote:Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.

Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.

They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.

couldn't agree more

**DarknessEternal**

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.

Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well. Right now, he's fully neither, as he's still a little from column A and a little from column B.

Also, you're still confusing Chaos with the Traitor legions. They aren't remotely equivalent.

**Brother Coa**

DarknessEternal wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.

Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well. Right now, he's fully neither, as he's still a little from column A and a little from column B.

Trying to explain divine things to Tau....

Anyway, evil is wining now because all the "good guys" are weak and disorganize to oppose them. Eldar are starting to die out, Imperium is fighting for Mankind survival, Tau are to small...
Only IF Gw ever expand story-line will we know for sure who will win, since this is now tie situation.

**Emperors Faithful**

DarknessEternal wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.

Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well.

Theory. Pure and simple. Staunch loyalist that I am, I don't buy the Star Child thingy.

The Chaos Gods certainly weren't pulling any punches when they tried to kill him.

**Brother Coa**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Theory. Pure and simple. Staunch loyalist that I am, I don't buy the Star Child thingy.

The Chaos Gods certainly weren't pulling any punches when they tried to kill him.

So you think that when the Emperor die - he dies?
I think he had some sort of backup plan, even in his state now his entity is very powerful ( see SoB acts of faith ).
And giving the untold billions praying to him every day he is quite powerful with all that strength.
That is theory all right, but Landing on the Moon was once theory to...
I am just saying, that soul that powerful cannot simply vanish into the Warp. Something will happened, what - we don't know until he dies...

**Emperors Faithful**

Brother Coa wrote:So you think that when the Emperor die - he dies?
I think he had some sort of backup plan...

His backup plan was to be interred into the Golden Throne. Which stopped him from dying.

BTW, I think this was a good backup plan. It was definitely better than the alternative (dying and leaving his newfound Human Empire to collapse around his corpse).

...even in his state now his entity is very powerful ( see SoB acts of faith ).

Of course he's powerful, and it can be argued that 10 millenia of worship has only increased that, but no one can definitively (or even confidently) say that he will be reborn as some sort of Star Child. The Star Child theory is believed in by a small Inquisitorial cult, not part of common doctrine, so far as I am aware.

**hellspawn22**

The Emperor dies, he dies. He was just a man, if incredibly powerful. I honestly don't much buy into the star child theory, but that raises another question: what's the Imperium's best hope once he goes out?

**Lynata**

hellspawn22 wrote:what's the Imperium's best hope once he goes out?

Pretending it never happened?

Of course, the Astronomican would pose a problem. That said, this being 40k, I could imagine a scenario where a faction of the Inquisition working together with the AdMech devises a plan to replicate this effect. Maybe it just costs a couple thousand psykers more, replacing Emps as the focus (though quickly "burning out" and having to be replaced).

**Nicholas**

If all the shamans who killed themselves to create him could bring themselves back to life why couldn't he?

**4M2A**

Coa- We have no reason to believe that if this fails he could just die. The theories saying he will return are based on human hope and faith rather than any evidence. For all we know he could just enter the warp and be eaten by chaos.

The emperor is already on plan B. He never wanted to go onto the throne, he chose it because it was the better alternative. If being in continual pain while your body falls apart is the good option things don't look good for the Big E when the throne fails. If he was more useful free from the throne why did he ask to be locked into it. He could ask to be free any time he wants- he can still communicate with people. He has already made his desperate last move- whatever happens to him next probably isn't going to be good.

**hellspawn22**

Well, my sources (read: Lexicanum) say that humanity is evolving into a race of psykers, so if we just hold out for a little bit longer, we'll be fine! But I agree that our best hope would indeed be in pretending it didn't happen.

**Nicholas**

"These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later." (Lexicanum on Big E's page)

This is why I can believe the starchild theory. All I think he is doing now is using the throne to pool enough energy in the warp in order to come back. I think if he dies too soon then he will simply die that is why he hasn't told anyone to just kill him yet.

**hellspawn22**

Hmm... and they sacrifice thousands of psykers a day to him... is there a strict record of where all those souls are going? I bet he's embezzling psychic energy, using the psykers to add to his own energy, so he can come back and ROFLSTOMP Chaos.

**Lynata**

hellspawn22 wrote:Hmm... and they sacrifice thousands of psykers a day to him... is there a strict record of where all those souls are going? I bet he's embezzling psychic energy, using the psykers to add to his own energy, so he can come back and ROFLSTOMP Chaos.

I'm fairly certain that it's been said those psykers are used to keep the Astronomican burning, but I'm sure someone with a better grip on this aspect of the fluff can elaborate further.

**hellspawn22**

Ostensibly, they are. But who's watching to make sure of it?

**4M2A**

Their souls are basically being used as a fuel. They are burned out and destroyed by the astronomicon.

**hellspawn22**

There are thousands of them every day. Who would notice if one or two souls got diverted to the warp into a forming super-emperor?

**Lynata**

Well, it's being explained out-of-character, so personally, *I* don't have a reason to believe it's otherwise yet.

GW could still pull this off, but until they actually hint at this ...

**hellspawn22**

But you gotta admit, awesome as a god-emperor is, a super god-emperor would be swagtastic.