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l0k1 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.

I don't think there are going to be Kan Wall lists any more. There's no reason for that configuration as you get no bonus to your cover saves by using Kans.

Are you referring to KFF only granting a 5+ cover save? It's a 5+ instead of a 4+ but good.

Okay, you get a 5+ cover save without the Killa Kans. Hence you don't need them any more.

So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.

TedNugent wrote:

l0k1 wrote:

Okay, you get a 5+ cover save without the Killa Kans. Hence you don't need them any more.

5+ always is still better than 5+ sometimes. Plus kans have DDCW and more importantly they are good at making you being able to charge your boyz rather than get them being charged. That was really the main reason to take them. It is too early to say if they will still be valid or not. The main problem seems to be that all the killa kans need to be within the 6 inches of the KFF to work now. But I haven't reached that section of the rulebook yet

I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!

Leth wrote:Yep, if they don't overwatch they might be in combat, if they do overwatch they definitely cant overwatch the next target. Either way the target unit(s) cant shoot.

Okay on the FNP vs Force weapon debate. They both activate at the same time. You take your test, your force property is now activated. I take my FNP the wound is for all intents and purposes negated.

So i guess your weapon has the force property now, and you have used a power but the wound does not go through.

Again, that's not what the rules say. If two things activate at the same time, the active player gets to chose which is first. If Force goes first, you can not use FNP. If FNP goes first, your opponent can no longer activate Force.
Unless you want your models to die, FNP works against force weapons during your turn, but not on your opponent's turn.

Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.

They sound interesting, but D3 12 point models die in the entry and 1 dies per morale test and on a 1 roll on D6 for each move. 6+ saves, with no real viable way to improve, the question hinges on whether they can make their Deep Strike Assault work and whether the Hammer of Wrath is base strength or is affected by Power Klaws.

My suspicion is that it's going to be base strength and you're going to have to wait til I3 to use Zag's Power Klaw, in which case, lame.

They are still overpriced and extremely squishy for the cost per model, and the model bleed due to everything (morale tests, movement, and deep striking) sounds excessive. But they have potential.

Jidmah wrote:
Again, that's not what the rules say. If two things activate at the same time, the active player gets to chose which is first. If Force goes first, you can not use FNP. If FNP goes first, your opponent can no longer activate Force.
Unless you want your models to die, FNP works against force weapons during your turn, but not on your opponent's turn.

Meaning if I assault, I get my FNP and vice versa?

By the way, you said that the active player gets to choose which goes first, not which of the two is active. If a unit of Nobs assaulted a unit of Grey Knights, they could choose to take their FNP against the Force Weapons, but if their FNP failed the Ork player would be forced to allow the Force Weapon activation immediately following the FNP roll for each failed FNP roll, in which case you can still be instant death'ed even though you got an FNP roll, no?

kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!

About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome. The lack the awesome shooting Paladins or Deathwing Terminators have. They are a viable alternative to nobz now, not much more.

Whilst it is not constructive to the thread.....I think we got shafted lol, I have put my green skins into hibernation lol

Jidmah wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!

About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome.

Vanilla Marines can't take Assault Terminators as scoring units.

There's always backfield Lootas.

TedNugent wrote:

Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.

They sound interesting, but D3 12 point models die in the entry and 1 dies per morale test and on a 1 roll on D6 for each move. 6+ saves, with no real viable way to improve, the question hinges on whether they can make their Deep Strike Assault work and whether the Hammer of Wrath is base strength or is affected by Power Klaws.

My suspicion is that it's going to be base strength and you're going to have to wait til I3 to use Zag's Power Klaw, in which case, lame.

They are still overpriced and extremely squishy for the cost per model, and the model bleed due to everything (morale tests, movement, and deep striking) sounds excessive. But they have potential.

I see, well what about warbikers? I was thinking of taking a squad of like 6 warbikers to run around and blast things with dakka guns. They seem pretty survivable to me, but cost a bit more points. They still get hammer and can easily be used as nob bikers.

Jidmah wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!

About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome. The lack the awesome shooting Paladins or Deathwing Terminators have. They are a viable alternative to nobz now, not much more.

True, but I suppose MANz cruise missile (3 or so in a trukk) are more attractive to other ork builds. Shooting wise though I think the kombi scorcha is a good bet for them, heavy flamers that can be used by every member!

The point is, you can simply evade MANz by not fighting them. You can't evade psycannons and CMLs. And they still implode to lascannons and lances, have terrible ld and thus can be easily tank-shocked. Granted, they don't run off the table anymore, but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Billagio wrote:I see, well what about warbikers? I was thinking of taking a squad of like 6 warbikers to run around and blast things with dakka guns. They seem pretty survivable to me, but cost a bit more points. They still get hammer and can easily be used as nob bikers.

Warbikers get free I10 attacks in addition to everything they already had. It's now more viable to finish off units by assaulting them, you still don't want to stick them in fights where you suffer many losses. Their nob is also a vicious opponent in challenges.

Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.

I ran a unit in a small game today (without Zagstruck). The thing is, you can only use your jump pack in either the movement phase (for 12+D6 inches movement) or the assault phase (for Hammer of Wrath and the charge distance re-roll). This means that it can be pretty tricky to maneuver them to get that Hammer of Wrath. I got the feeling that I'll be playing them much as I played them in 5th: Fragile, so keep them back or in cover until I get the chance to either zoom in and hit something fragile, or as a backup assault unit. Hammer of Wrath is pretty good against squishier units though.

tgjensen wrote:

Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.

I ran a unit in a small game today (without Zagstruck). The thing is, you can only use your jump pack in either the movement phase (for 12+D6 inches movement) or the assault phase (for Hammer of Wrath and the charge distance re-roll). This means that it can be pretty tricky to maneuver them to get that Hammer of Wrath. I got the feeling that I'll be playing them much as I played them in 5th: Fragile, so keep them back or in cover until I get the chance to either zoom in and hit something fragile, or as a backup assault unit. Hammer of Wrath is pretty good against squishier units though.

Oh wow I didnt catch that with only using it once per turn. Looks like ill be sticking to warbikers then I think.

Btw, the silly side of the rules:
If a BigMek with as SAG shoots himself into close combat, he can now immediately challenge their leader

Jidmah wrote:but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core.

The rule of cool disagress with you.

Does Hammer of Wrath use base strength and is there any word on whether it uses your Wargear?

I'm trying to figure out what happens when you put a Power Klaw on a Biker/Stormboy Nob. I also think Zag's Vulcha Klaws are a confuddled mess right now, which is weird because they specifically addressed his Power Klaw in the FAQ they just neglected to mention how HoW affects it.

CT GAMER wrote:

Jidmah wrote:but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core.

The rule of cool disagress with you.

The rule of cool is not a tactical asset, thus irrelevant in a forum labeled "tactics".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:Does Hammer of Wrath use base strength and is there any word on whether it uses your Wargear?

I'm trying to figure out what happens when you put a Power Klaw on a Biker/Stormboy Nob. I also think Zag's Vulcha Klaws are a confuddled mess right now, which is weird because they specifically addressed his Power Klaw in the FAQ they just neglected to mention how HoW affects it.

Hammer of Wrath always uses the model's unmodified strength.

Jidmah wrote:

Hammer of Wrath always uses the model's unmodified strength.

e.g. strength 3 on Warbikers and Stormboyz?

Seems that way.

Edit: It does auto-hit though, so that's still better than a regular S4 WS4 attack.

Yeah that wouldn't be so bad but it means that Hammer of Wrath is literally nothing to get excited about.

I'll run the math now but I'm guessing it's going to be completely underwhelming.

It's about two dead marines for a mob of 16 like I run. It's nothing fantastic, but it gives Stormboyz that little extra oomph they needed. Nothing gamebreaking, it just makes them a little more viable for their points.

Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?

Rule of cool always is a tactical asset in the same way as morale is a tactical asset. Rule of cool increases your morale through increased enjoyment with your army. Morale also increases your tactical abilities(well it does for me anyway), I know the number of times I make tactical mistakes is when my morale is broken. So in essence it should be considered at the very core of any tactical discussion. Then again I am going to have season one of G.I.Joe in the background while I build and paint my storm talons, so what do I know.

Free attacks are free attacks IMO. Auto hits are basically two free attacks(assuming similar weapon skill) at base strength if you want to think of it that way.

Lovepug13 wrote:Whilst it is not constructive to the thread.....I think we got shafted lol, I have put my green skins into hibernation lol

Care to explain this logic?

So, ran an 8 nob group today in a small 1,000pt game to test a multitude of things (not to mention bringing guard platoons as allies. So. much. dakka ) and they did very well. Smashed a couple of units of fire warriors, a farseer, and took all the fire a 1k eldar could put out for almost 3 turns by themselves, before finally getting dragged down by that special Eldar demon HQ guy.

my setup was the following:
Nob 1: PK, Cybork, Waaagh banna
Nob 2: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 3: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 4: Painboy
Nob 5: Cybork, slugga, choppa
Nob 6: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 7: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 8: cybork, Slugga, Choppa

"Look out sir!" is both the funniest, and handiest rule for nobz at the same time. Watching a group of nobs chuck each other into the path of incoming fire nonstop was hilarious, and allowed me to place the wounds however I needed. Yeah it hurt if you failed it, but by putting the slugga/choppa nobs at the front greatly mitigated the damage. Plus, if you started doing "look out sir!" from the first wound onward, it gives you more room for error. Then, you just take wounded nobs and move them back a rank the next turn. It's not as foolproof as wound shenanigans last edition, but its still plenty viable. Cybork with FNP is a big help as well.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing people bring "bodyguard" nobs, barebones nobs whose job is to stand up front and soak up fire so the PK's can make it into combat unharmed. Looks like we might just have a use for all those AoBR nobs after all...

Leth wrote:Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?

NO. NO.

You need to read the history of a conversation carefully.

We were talking specifically about a unit with the Feel No Pain USR that sustained a wound from a Force Weapon. You don't get Feel No Pain unless it says you get Feel No Pain, e.g. a unit of Nobs with a Painboy, same as always.

MrMoustaffa wrote:So, ran an 8 nob group today in a small 1,000pt game to test a multitude of things (not to mention bringing guard platoons as allies. So. much. dakka ) and they did very well. Smashed a couple of units of fire warriors, a farseer, and took all the fire a 1k eldar could put out for almost 3 turns by themselves, before finally getting dragged down by that special Eldar demon HQ guy.

my setup was the following:
Nob 1: PK, Cybork, Waaagh banna
Nob 2: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 3: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 4: Painboy
Nob 5: Cybork, slugga, choppa
Nob 6: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 7: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 8: cybork, Slugga, Choppa

"Look out sir!" is both the funniest, and handiest rule for nobz at the same time. Watching a group of nobs chuck each other into the path of incoming fire nonstop was hilarious, and allowed me to place the wounds however I needed. Yeah it hurt if you failed it, but by putting the slugga/choppa nobs at the front greatly mitigated the damage. Plus, if you started doing "look out sir!" from the first wound onward, it gives you more room for error. Then, you just take wounded nobs and move them back a rank the next turn. It's not as foolproof as wound shenanigans last edition, but its still plenty viable. Cybork with FNP is a big help as well.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing people bring "bodyguard" nobs, barebones nobs whose job is to stand up front and soak up fire so the PK's can make it into combat unharmed. Looks like we might just have a use for all those AoBR nobs after all...

Thats so not Orky, but is making me chuckle anyways. I keep seeing this in my head

OI!!! Look out Powa Klaw Nob! Ders a bullet headin roight fer ya!
*leaps in the path to save PK nob*
OI!!!! U's got ta be more careful! MOAR BULLETS BOSS!!!!!!
*leaps infront of more bullets*

I wasn't really down on the Orks for 6th, until today when I saw the "Challenge" thread, which is a huge, HUGE nerf to hidden Power Klaw Nobz in Boyz mobs, which is the absolute staple of the Ork list.

Now, I see a big Nob Biker unit, with "Necrork Allies", Lootas, and maybe some more Nob Bikers.

MANz appeared to be a really nice winner, but I think Battlewagons are dead in a tournament environment where Necrons exist.

The Kan Wall may be pretty good still when backed up by Lootas and Shootas, but with the huge nerf to PK Nobz in Boyz squads, I'm not that certain they can be relied on anymore once we hit CC.

KingCracker wrote:

Thats so not Orky, but is making me chuckle anyways. I keep seeing this in my head

OI!!! Look out Powa Klaw Nob! Ders a bullet headin roight fer ya!
*leaps in the path to save PK nob*
OI!!!! U's got ta be more careful! MOAR BULLETS BOSS!!!!!!
*leaps infront of more bullets*

lol

Seriously. That's gotta be the most silly rule they've come up with.

"Look out Power Klaw Nob!" that's classic

I think the idea is that he's throwing his underlings in front of him.