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2020/12/14 13:23:19
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
How do five Stalker Bolt Rifle intercessors compare to a mini Tactical Squad with a heavy weapon? With a missile launcher, my reckoning is the tacs are better vs hordes within 24”, and the Ints better (significantly so, with Grenade launcher) but not performing their best at 24-36”; vs MEQs, the tacs are marginally better within 24” (unless the target is in cover) and the Ints are way better at 24-36”; vs hard targets the Ints are better at both ranges; vs T8, the tacs are only marginally better within 24” and the two are basically matched at 24-36”.
lindsay40k wrote: How do five Stalker Bolt Rifle intercessors compare to a mini Tactical Squad with a heavy weapon? With a missile launcher, my reckoning is the tacs are better vs hordes within 24”, and the Ints better (significantly so, with Grenade launcher) but not performing their best at 24-36”; vs MEQs, the tacs are marginally better within 24” (unless the target is in cover) and the Ints are way better at 24-36”; vs hard targets the Ints are better at both ranges; vs T8, the tacs are only marginally better within 24” and the two are basically matched at 24-36”.
With the removal of stratagem "Target in Sight", I don't think the Stalker bolt Rifle has more value over the Assault bolt rifles. I think a better replacement is the Heavy Intercessors with Executor Bolt Rifle w Heavy Bolter. This is the best units to shoot MEQ from afar in 9th. I am waiting for the actual models, and after I have them, I would use them every time I know I am going against SM, CSM, Tson. But I would switch to Assault Heavy Bolt Rifle if I know I am against new DG.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: After being wildly disappointed with my current 40k army and seeing how much I would need to work to fix it for 9th, I figured I would just build a new army. That being said, I was wanting to go for a Mechanized Primaris army and am looking for some input/ideas recommendations. I have no idea what the meta will be because... COVID + new edition. But I am wanting to be able to compete reasonably competitively.
My first (spammy) draft:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Primaris Captain
MC Power Sword, Shield
[110]
Primaris Lieutenant
MC Power Axe
[80]
Elites:
(6) Veteran Intercessor Squad
Power Fist, HBP/Chainsword
[142]
(6) Veteran Intercessor Squad
Power Fist, HBP/Chainsword
[142]
Troops:
(5) Assault Intercessor Squad
Power Fist, Plasma Pistol
[110]
(5) Assault Intercessor Squad
Power Fist, Plasma Pistol
[110]
(6) Incursor Squad
Haywire
[136]
(5) Incursor Squad
Haywire
[115]
(5) Incursor Squad
Haywire
[115]
Heavy:
Gladiator Lancer
Icarus, Auto Launchers
[210]
Probably could use some more variety, but I am still trying to wrap my head around all the endless new options Marines got.
What chapter are you playing? I think White Scar is best choice for your list with all those "chainsword Intercessors".
About the units. I think the Gladiator tank are just bad in current meta. If you do use White Scar for your army. I think it will be better to take multiple units of Attack Bikers Squads instead, maybe 2-3 units of three. They will do better than those tanks.
Probably will pick Scars or maybe some of the Successor traits instead. My hope was to go full Primaris, since I'm leaning Necropolis Hawks for my chapter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 18:06:27
If you don't build towards a certain list or have style reasons to prefer tac marines, go for primaris. They're about the same power on the table now, but primaris are future proof as models. There will come a day where GW moves "old marines" to legends and much moaning will be had. This may be (hopefully) years away, but it will come most certainly.
If you like the models and build a collection (or maybe even paint stuff for the display only).... but then, why even ask, paint what you want
Cpt. Icanus wrote: If you don't build towards a certain list or have style reasons to prefer tac marines, go for primaris. They're about the same power on the table now, but primaris are future proof as models. There will come a day where GW moves "old marines" to legends and much moaning will be had. This may be (hopefully) years away, but it will come most certainly.
If you like the models and build a collection (or maybe even paint stuff for the display only).... but then, why even ask, paint what you want
ignore this, tac marines are fine, it could be decades before tac marines go away IF they do. by then you'll no doubt have replacements just from the boxed set put out
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
UncleJetMints wrote: So I don't play tournaments, but my friends try not to make terrible list either. Are tacticals worth getting or should I just stick to primaris?
It depends a bit. The traditional tatcicla marine was always a cononundrum. It is very iconic from the setting. But it performs very bad on the tabletopp. 10 bolter units. One with heavy weapon. One with a special weapon, and the sergant. It can be combat squaded. It is very odd. In many edition the 'troop tax' (mandatory troops) often went with the scouts because they could screen and they where cheap allowing you to buy more units elsewhere.
Primaris seems better because they have better range and better AP. They also have good rules in melee with 2 attacks base. Assault primaris are even better in melee. But they are veyr hard to deliver as primaris transports costs though the roof. The elusive not yet published heavy interscessor seems good.
Space Wolves have kick ass first born marines. Grey hunters are comparable to intersessors. Blood claws got an awsome BS3+. I do not know the other armies. If you grab a small unit of first born marines consider a razorback or rhino as those are the benefits of firstborn marines. However, at that points you pay more points then regular troops.
Hope that help. I would reccomend first born assault bikes with multimelta. Or jump packs.
yeah, tac marines are solid, although unless you have a specific plan for the special and heavy weapons you're better off with intercessors, but with space wolves that math changes ever so slightly due to astartes chainswords and with space wolves it's a choice of "better ranged or better melee"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
That's not a good way to hanfle differing oppinions. My point stands and doesn't become less valid. I even pointed out it's no reason to gi against personal taste.
That's not a good way to hanfle differing oppinions. My point stands and doesn't become less valid. I even pointed out it's no reason to gi against personal taste.
I notice you cut out the bit when I explained why you where wrong.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
That's not a good way to hanfle differing oppinions. My point stands and doesn't become less valid. I even pointed out it's no reason to gi against personal taste.
I notice you cut out the bit when I explained why you where wrong.
Because i'm not Heck, i play Black Templars, as of the recent point changes we get super cheap crusader squads, i'd still not recommend to a newer player to buy them, unless they really like the models (as in "put them on display"-kind of like). As gaming pieces they could be illegal for matched play within the next year. Could be twenty years, but fact is, we don't know yet. And they WILL go away, whether we like it or not.
Its a possibility not a fact and when you say could be 20 years you put the hole in your own argument. Any 40k model could be obsolete in 20 years. All we can say for sure is what is legal now anything else is speculation. You buy models to paint/play with now not hold forever as investment pieces.
10th edition could legend them or it could split primaris and originals into separate factions or keep them as one - we are at the start of 9th.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/11 14:48:42
I've gone for a tactical squad in my current set up because a) I like the BA tactical squad and b) I have a drop pod going spare that I figure they could be useful in, especially given the way objectives are so important now. I'm not too concerned about their killing power but now that they're W2, I'm hoping they can drop in and hold a target as tougher/stronger units move on to clear out enemy units and take other objectives.
(Caveat: My real world 40K experiences were last tested at the beginning of 3rd edition)
That's not a good way to hanfle differing oppinions. My point stands and doesn't become less valid. I even pointed out it's no reason to gi against personal taste.
I notice you cut out the bit when I explained why you where wrong.
Because i'm not Heck, i play Black Templars, as of the recent point changes we get super cheap crusader squads, i'd still not recommend to a newer player to buy them, unless they really like the models (as in "put them on display"-kind of like). As gaming pieces they could be illegal for matched play within the next year. Could be twenty years, but fact is, we don't know yet. And they WILL go away, whether we like it or not.
Doesn't pay to be certain about anything to come with Games Workshop.
I thought Tacticals would be gone after 8th edition. Now they've got 2 wounds.
Primaris are kind of funny, they were arguably GW's biggest product release since 2nd edition. Somehow, the models only had footslogging options for about 2 years.
I'd be more concerned about the fate of Tactical Squads if the utility of new releases didn't feel so utterly random. My guess is Tacticals will always be part of the core game, but that could change and there's no point arguing about it.
That's not a good way to hanfle differing oppinions. My point stands and doesn't become less valid. I even pointed out it's no reason to gi against personal taste.
I notice you cut out the bit when I explained why you where wrong.
Ah the arrogant @ss angle.....always refreshing in a time where we never see it on a daily basis. Also refreshing to see someone mistake opinion for fact....lol!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/11 19:54:45
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
Moving away from the argument... what do people think about the blue raspberry spear boys? Not sure how competitive they are, but the mix of their stuff and Ultras stuff seems interesting.
U02dah4 wrote: Its a possibility not a fact and when you say could be 20 years you put the hole in your own argument. Any 40k model could be obsolete in 20 years. All we can say for sure is what is legal now anything else is speculation. You buy models to paint/play with now not hold forever as investment pieces.
10th edition could legend them or it could split primaris and originals into separate factions or keep them as one - we are at the start of 9th.
and tenth edition is proably 3 or 4 years out.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
How are Rapier Quad Heavy Bolter for Imperial Fist?
I'm thinking of adding them with Hellblasters for Heavy Support, but I'm a bit underwhelmed by the S5 AP -1.They are only 80ppm and sync well with IF's chapter tactic though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/20 22:01:18
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/20 13:57:27
Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Red Corsairs: WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
Batman Miniatures Game: Mr.Freeze, Joker
Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page
So played a game yesterday vs Death Guard, I played Iron Hands. My list was very unorthodox, I had a hammerfall bunker, 3 firestrike turrets, 6 land speeders with multimeltas, 3 land speeder typhoons with heavy bolters, an ironclad dreadnought, a librarian and a tech marine, a whirlwind, and some basic troops.
I ended up losing but it was a very close game.
The reason for this post was I ran what I am calling the grease monkey setup vs mortarion and it worked like a charm.
This is a 3 part setup only iron hands can pull.
1. Give librarian the +1 to hit spell.
2. Take whirlwind.
3. Make ironclad dreadnought a chr and give it the student of history warlord trait.
4. Always shoot the whirlwind at mortarion and use the strat making Mortarion tight last and not able to interrupt.
What ended up happening was the ironclad would either get charged then swing before morty allowing him to slap him then consolidate 6" away so morty didn't get a chance to swing or the dreadnought would charge morty and again swing first then duck out. I was able to pull this trick off for 4 turns (ran out of cp so t5 morty swung first and killed the dreadnought) and have morty at 2w left by the time the dreadnought got cornered and killed. And because my list was so mobile in half of it and static in the other my opponent really only had the option of going for the bunker/turrets/dreadnought, he wasn't catching the land speeders and their 18" base movement lol.
Amazing game, I forgot a few rules as this was my first time using ironhands (like ironstone... I took the relic to help protect the turrets but completely forgot it once the game started) but great all around.
Azuza001 wrote: So played a game yesterday vs Death Guard, I played Iron Hands. My list was very unorthodox, I had a hammerfall bunker, 3 firestrike turrets, 6 land speeders with multimeltas, 3 land speeder typhoons with heavy bolters, an ironclad dreadnought, a librarian and a tech marine, a whirlwind, and some basic troops.
I ended up losing but it was a very close game.
The reason for this post was I ran what I am calling the grease monkey setup vs mortarion and it worked like a charm.
This is a 3 part setup only iron hands can pull.
1. Give librarian the +1 to hit spell.
2. Take whirlwind.
3. Make ironclad dreadnought a chr and give it the student of history warlord trait.
4. Always shoot the whirlwind at mortarion and use the strat making Mortarion tight last and not able to interrupt.
What ended up happening was the ironclad would either get charged then swing before morty allowing him to slap him then consolidate 6" away so morty didn't get a chance to swing or the dreadnought would charge morty and again swing first then duck out. I was able to pull this trick off for 4 turns (ran out of cp so t5 morty swung first and killed the dreadnought) and have morty at 2w left by the time the dreadnought got cornered and killed. And because my list was so mobile in half of it and static in the other my opponent really only had the option of going for the bunker/turrets/dreadnought, he wasn't catching the land speeders and their 18" base movement lol.
Amazing game, I forgot a few rules as this was my first time using ironhands (like ironstone... I took the relic to help protect the turrets but completely forgot it once the game started) but great all around.
Wow, it is a real good way to deal with Morty. Kite him.
Interested in how are you capture those objectives, an how you positioned to evade Death Guard chasing you. The board is not large enough. I think if they have PBC and PM in rhinos can kill your landspeeders quite quick.
In the game we played it was dawn of War style with 6 objectives. There were 3 on each side, 2 just outside our deployment and one in. I spread out, put my bunker within flamer range of 2 of them, whirlwind on my 3rd, and used the turrets as a buffer with the ironstone on them and the librarian casting +1 armor onto them. The tech marine used his awakening to give bunker +1 to hit and his warlord trait to allow it to reroll 1 hit/wound/dmg roll a turn. Then the infantry just held objectives / screened while the land speeders with multimeltas each flew up a flank and the 3 tornados held back. I kept myself at 24" range as long as possible with the speeders, using them to kill plauge marines (I tried to kill a bloat Drone t1 but he made 3 5++ saves and that didn't happen lol).
My plan was to just keep my 3 and shoot him off his objectives while keeping morty at bay. Morty didn't even see combat until t4 when he had had enough and hit my wall, totally Crushing my turrets (which was my fault, I forgot the ironstone was on them and if we had remembered -1d then one would have been alive with 2w left at the end of morty swinging). This was the turn the dread smashed morty from 15w where he was to 7 then bounced away. Next turn I charged in again, swung, and missed horribly. Out of 6 swings, hitting on 3's, I connected once (dice can be evil at times) and didn't do anything. Bounced away, his turn he chases the dread down and killed it. But game was over at that point, it was t5 and I had managed with every thing to get him to 2w left. He only held 1 objective to my 2 but his turn 4 he held 5 having made some long charges and good rolls. (11 to charge with his poxwalkers and he makes it!)
Was a great and fun game. I look forward to facing morty again and seeing how it goes.
As for pm in rhinos I don't see them killing speeders. Speeders need to be in 24" range and have an 18" move if your not caring about being in melta range. 6 shots will pop a rhino at 24" easy, and the marines inside are super slow. I dont see them getting in range.
Pbc could do it yea, but so could blight hawlers. At that point it becomes a who hits who first kinda thing, and honestly with morty costing what he does if your opponent takes 3 pbc as well thats a huge chunk of points, so focus on killing what holds the objectives. In my game it was only t4 that won him the game, up to that point I was keeping him on only 2 objectives because I kept shooting whatever tried to get on his 3rd one. It may seem like overkill but those 18 autocannon shots did wonders against his infantry, shreading a large pox walker squad t1 with the help of the hb on the tornadoes and a plauge marine squad t2.
Honestly the only thing I didn't have an answer for was his possessed. They ran through me, took them 3 turns but t4 they took one objective from me (one near the whirlwind) and I had nothing that could get over there to help. Nurgle possessed are nasty!
I've been running 10 stalkers bolter ints
5 assault bolter
and I just tried out a unit of assult ints in an impulsor...
impulsor got killed and the assult marines were forced to sit on an objective doing nothing. Complete waste. I think I am going for a 5 man tac with a heavy to replace them. I play Ultras and have lots of VOF - need some heavy damage to help out. Considering a rocket for flak missle and utility of the frag blast. A MM or grav are bother pretty tempting though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In my 5 man tac teams I have been loving the grav cannon if I plan on getting them at mid range (24") but for back field the heavy bolter is nice. It's key when you have a target that has to die and is almost there.... the hellfire shells strat is very useful for this.
My Impulsor holds a squad of Bladeguard, but in BT you can devout push into engagement range after the disembark. So depending on the chapter you might wanna go with something a bit more shooty.
I'm considering getting back into 40K after almost a decade absence and building a bike heavy White Scars list. I've wanted to do this for decades, but GW's SM bike models have always been...well...terrible.
Any advice anyone could offer? Where would such an army get high S shooting; or is even a lot of high S shooting necessary? Are flyers a big issue to deal with currently?
I've been gone from the game so long, and the editions have changed so much, that I don't really know where to begin in building a decent list. I want to have a good list idea decided before I start laying out money for models.
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
