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I know they are really killy and all, that's not my dispute. My dispute is about how squishy they are. It could just be my local meta, which is Tau, Orks, Space Marines, Blood Angels, , Dark Angels Eldar, and Dark Eldar, but they only seem to perform well against the marines. Eldar and Dark Eldar just lance them to death, laughing at instant death to my lovely 225 point squad. Tau are just Tau, enough said. Orks don't pose a threat to me at this point in time. My Defiler lists always seem to perform better because of the juicy pie plate that he brings to the field. He is more durable than the Oblits, especially with Daemonic Possession. I usually run Vindi with Daemonic Possession, Defiler, and x3 Oblits for my heavy support. Vindi always gets back his points because the short range cannon forces me to ensure that the enemy has no cover. If defiler gets his battlecannon destroyed he is still a STR 10 Fleeting machine ready to eat people apart in close combat. Meanwhile my Oblits are either in cover using their Lascannons or Plasma Cannons, or deep striking and using a flavor of melta. I usually use lash to bunch people up for the big pie plates, leaving little for the more expensive obliterators. Am I just using them incorrectly, is it the way my meta is, or am I just not seeing something? I've been playing 40k for about 11 months and I've gotten decently good, able to take on and win against randoms at my FLGS. Help me Dakka, help me see the light.

Obliterators are better than your defiler at opening vehicles....and 5th edition *is* a mechanized world.

Ork battlewagons, kans and dreadnoughts
Dark Eldar Ravagers
Predators, land raiders, monoliths, eldar everything...

The bring fire support to the table (and variable fire support at that) that you can't find reliably elsewhere in your codex.

If your local scene isn't up to snuff....there's nothing wrong with packing a defiler or three.

Hmm... Well I only really use them for plasma cannons and Lascannons, and they've never been impressive, despite playing them for over a year..

DE just laugh at them, I agree.

Justus wrote:Meanwhile my Oblits are either in cover using their Lascannons or Plasma Cannons, or deep striking and using a flavor of melta.

Yeah, this is basically what they do. Oblits got hyped up for Lash/PM/Oblit lists because you leave yourself no room for fire support, and Oblits exist to cover multiple gaps in your list. They are never the most efficient, most durable, or even most effective thing you can throw at any given task. They do, however, help a weaker player cover all his bases.

You need to kill enemy transports? Take two Predators instead of a single squad of Oblits. You need to roast heavy vehicles? Take Termicide, or more troops with Meltaguns.

I've been running 1 squad of 3 Oblits coupled with 2 x Defilers. What I've noticed is that the Defilers are all-stars for one or two shots, then spend the rest of the game without much to do. The Oblits are able to take choice shots the entire game. I'm very happy with this setup, but I am going to try running more Obliterators to see what they feel like. It may be that once the Defilers are gone the Oblits will get all the anti-tank fire and be miserable.

Justus wrote:I know they are really killy and all, that's not my dispute. My dispute is about how squishy they are. It could just be my local meta, which is Tau, Orks, Space Marines, Blood Angels, , Dark Angels Eldar, and Dark Eldar, but they only seem to perform well against the marines. Eldar and Dark Eldar just lance them to death, laughing at instant death to my lovely 225 point squad. Tau are just Tau, enough said. Orks don't pose a threat to me at this point in time. My Defiler lists always seem to perform better because of the juicy pie plate that he brings to the field. He is more durable than the Oblits, especially with Daemonic Possession. I usually run Vindi with Daemonic Possession, Defiler, and x3 Oblits for my heavy support. Vindi always gets back his points because the short range cannon forces me to ensure that the enemy has no cover. If defiler gets his battlecannon destroyed he is still a STR 10 Fleeting machine ready to eat people apart in close combat. Meanwhile my Oblits are either in cover using their Lascannons or Plasma Cannons, or deep striking and using a flavor of melta. I usually use lash to bunch people up for the big pie plates, leaving little for the more expensive obliterators. Am I just using them incorrectly, is it the way my meta is, or am I just not seeing something? I've been playing 40k for about 11 months and I've gotten decently good, able to take on and win against randoms at my FLGS. Help me Dakka, help me see the light.

The killiness is really what you take them for.

If you aren't seeing them shine, you aren't taking 9 of them and two Lash Sorcerors. At 675 + 250 pts, this is a significant portion of your army, but you've basically got enough firepower to open 3 vehicles on one turn, and then drop 9 Plasma Cannons on two balled up Lash victim squads the next.

FWIW I used to run 2x Defilers, 3x Oblits as my heavy support and I can tell you with full conviction that the Oblits are better 9/10x. The only situation where I'd want to load up on Defilers is in a list maximizing Daemon Princes, 3x Defilers, and 3x Dreadnoughts.

I just use them to deep stike behind my opponents Land Raider and use the twin linked melta.

It's risky,but 75 points taking out over 200.
It's a pretty good risk. Even two Obliterators and the risk is worth while,and with it gone you can still use the flamers and powerfists on the troops all around you at this point.

It works even better with an IG.

Oblits are one of those units that are -really- good when they are good but quite mediocre when they don't get to shine.

I have had great success with mine overall, Deepstriking to blast vindicators in the rear, harging out of cover as orks approach to use twin-linked flamers, and rapid-firing plasma at terminators. I doubt they'll ever top scoring a a double plasma cannon hit on 5 terminators and wiping them out instantly.

That said, they -realy underperformed in my last game against a green tide + Kan wall ork horde. They missed a lot of lascannons and multi-melta, the enemy spread out his infantry so plasma blasts barely got 3 boyz per shot. Defilers or vindicators would have performed way better, but then again, I don't fce many horde armies here.

The truth is, Oblits are there to sort of patch some important gaps in CSM strategy: lack of multi-melta, little variety in vehicle weaponry that can be fired on the move, and the same problem all non-Space wolves have with their devastators/Havoks.

obviously oblitorators are infantry, and preditors, vindicators, and defilers are vehicles so they really shouldnt be compared.
one can get cover saves easily, can enter cover, and is a fairly small target to hide. The others are impossible to hide boxes that are always one shot lucky shot away from exploding.

Oblitorators need to be compared to Havocs, other infantry. A havoc with a lascannon costs 50 points and you always have to take a unit of 5 so you will never get 50 points per lascannon. You also cannot change weapons, cannot move and fire, dont have 2 wounds or a 2+ save.
The power fist should not be ignored either.

Basically Havocs are great for autocannons, missile launchers , or if you are playing around and want 4 meltaguns in a rhino on the cheap. But they are earily bested by obitorators when it comes to AP2 AT weaponry.

comparing vehicles to infantry is definitly apples to oranges.

What in the CSM codex don't Dark Eldar laugh at though?

I would argue that the two can compare, simply because they take up the same slot on force organization. With tricky placement you can indeed give a defiler cover, just park a Rhino in front of it. Works for me atleast. In my most recent game with DE (today)my Oblits were gone by turn two, only landing a kill on his ravager. Strangely enough, my MVP was the Battlecannon destroyed, immobilized Defiler, who was swatting skimmers out of the air with the Reaper Autocannon. My friend was blind with rage as the daemon engine was eating apart his forces.

Justus wrote:I would argue that the two can compare, simply because they take up the same slot on force organization. With tricky placement you can indeed give a defiler cover, just park a Rhino in front of it. Works for me atleast. In my most recent game with DE (today)my Oblits were gone by turn two, only landing a kill on his ravager. Strangely enough, my MVP was the Battlecannon destroyed, immobilized Defiler, who was swatting skimmers out of the air with the Reaper Autocannon. My friend was blind with rage as the daemon engine was eating apart his forces.

but the way the winds of chaos blow, 1 darklance/krak missile/meltagun could pen and then roll a 5 or 6 and you have no more vehcile. 2 obilitorators need at least 2 shots from any non blast weapon to kill.

a rhino you are just going to sit in front of another vehicle is a waste. sure you can do it but it does cost something as you cant take rhinos without men in them or men out in the open somewhere. Its much easier to get cover for infantry that also cant be negated by moving around the side. You can also get better than 4+
There is a fair amount of stuff on the battlefield that gives 3+ to infantry, which makes oblitorators much better.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm... Well I only really use them for plasma cannons and Lascannons, and they've never been impressive, despite playing them for over a year..

DE just laugh at them, I agree.

The fact you're only using 2 of their large amount of effective weapons probably contributes to their lacklustre performance for you. When I play my CSMs they wreck house. They're incredibly versatile and able to adapt to the vast majority of situations. You should have no issues deepstriking them if you need to protect them for a turn or two (or try to get in a bit closer than normal), or playing from cover and using their long range weapons (decisions like this are down to what the opponent's army looks like). They're resilient enough to stand up to a pile of small arms fire, and their shooting is devastating. They're no slouch in CC against anything that isn't a dedicated elite CC unit as well since they can morph power fists. Their Plasma Cannons and such also combo extremely well with Lash of Submission.

Nowhere else in the CSM codex will you find a more points efficient platform that specializes in killing just about everything. Usually you buy a unit anda rm it to perform a task, which makes it sub-par in other areas. Oblits are just good against everything, they don't really make compromises since they effectively have every gun you could want in a given situation.

Caffran9 wrote:Usually you buy a unit anda rm it to perform a task, which makes it sub-par in other areas. Oblits are just good against everything, they don't really make compromises since they effectively have every gun you could want in a given situation.

That is exactly where you are mistaken. Obliterators are a compromise. Obliterators rarely get to use more than a single weapon effectively per game; deployment changes what will be in range and what will be effective. What Obliterators give you is a way to allocate extra weapons where you need them at the last minute. They pay for that by being less effective at any given role. For instance, if you need them to hunt transports you get 3 Lascannons for 225 points. A Predator gives you 3 Lascannons, one of which is TL, for 165. You need a heavy tank dead? Deepstriking three Oblits with Multi-Meltas is pretty much comparable to a 4 man Termicide team, except the latter is a third less expensive.

Other armies don't have, and don't need, liquid assets like the Obliterators. In my opinion, taking all the best tools for the job instead of an army of jack-of-all-trades is the better way to go.

DarkHound wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:Usually you buy a unit anda rm it to perform a task, which makes it sub-par in other areas. Oblits are just good against everything, they don't really make compromises since they effectively have every gun you could want in a given situation.

That is exactly where you are mistaken. Obliterators are a compromise. Obliterators rarely get to use more than a single weapon effectively per game; deployment changes what will be in range and what will be effective. What Obliterators give you is a way to allocate extra weapons where you need them at the last minute. They pay for that by being less effective at any given role. For instance, if you need them to hunt transports you get 3 Lascannons for 225 points. A Predator gives you 3 Lascannons, one of which is TL, for 165. You need a heavy tank dead? Deepstriking three Oblits with Multi-Meltas is pretty much comparable to a 4 man Termicide team, except the latter is a third less expensive.

Other armies don't have, and don't need, liquid assets like the Obliterators. In my opinion, taking all the best tools for the job instead of an army of jack-of-all-trades is the better way to go.

Flexibility costs points, but for the incredible flexibility you get from Oblits, they're a bargain. I don't think I'd call them less effective either. More points yes, but that doesn't mean less effective (you could argue that they're less efficient, but it's hard to account for their flexibility here, which is what you're paying the extra points for). You do compromise in that you pay more points for them, but you gain unmatched flexibility. TO be honest, I think they're better at killing tanks over a 6 turn game than a Predator (to use your example) or a unit of Havocs with Missile Launchers/Lascannons. They're harder to kill than either, and in the case of the Pred, they can't be shut down by a single damaging hit (assuming you have units of 2-3 Oblits). They can bring Multimeltas (with 24" + 1d6" range) to bear if they're presented with the opportunity as well, which takes them way above and beyond a Predator when it comes to killing tanks. They're also going to make use of more than one weapon per game, almost guaranteed. I can't even count amount of times I've ended up using 3+ of their weapons per game. In fact, I'm honestly not too sure how to only use 1 of their weapons per game. Pending deployment and the opposing army I might be cycling through AT weapons as distances change, or going from AT to blast weapons, etc etc. As you said, they're whatever you need, as you need it. Over the course of a game you'll end up with some really good options to make use of multiple weapons to great effect, far greater effect than if you were constrained to 1 weapon (such as with a Predator or Havocs). This is multiplied by having more than one unit of Oblits too.

Are they squishy or is it that they are targeted by too many of your opponents? I've never known too many people to leave obliterators alone, but they also stick around for a while, like terminators with two wounds...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are they squishy or is it that they are targeted by too many of your opponents? I've never known too many people to leave obliterators alone, but they also stick around for a while, like terminators with two wounds...

Well they can die quickly, but usually they should have cover at the very least, and a 2+ helps a lot with torrent fire. 2 wounds is nice as well. People won't leave them alone, but depending on what the opposing player is getting, you can either protect them by deploying them properly in good cover and getting the first strike with them, or deep strike them to get th first shot off (landing them in a good spot to protect them usually).

DarkHound wrote:That is exactly where you are mistaken. Obliterators are a compromise. Obliterators rarely get to use more than a single weapon effectively per game; deployment changes what will be in range and what will be effective. What Obliterators give you is a way to allocate extra weapons where you need them at the last minute. They pay for that by being less effective at any given role. For instance, if you need them to hunt transports you get 3 Lascannons for 225 points. A Predator gives you 3 Lascannons, one of which is TL, for 165. You need a heavy tank dead? Deepstriking three Oblits with Multi-Meltas is pretty much comparable to a 4 man Termicide team, except the latter is a third less expensive.

Other armies don't have, and don't need, liquid assets like the Obliterators. In my opinion, taking all the best tools for the job instead of an army of jack-of-all-trades is the better way to go.

I don't know about this. In particular, two weapons tend to murder MEQs and both make appearances during the game: the lascannon and plasma cannon. In the early turns, they're slinging lascannon fire, and as transports are opened, they transition to plasma cannon fire. This is two uses at a bare minimum. The last game I played, one squad fire lascannons, plasma cannons, twin-linked plasma guns, and multi-meltas.

The great part about obliterators is their flexibility which means they always have the right weapon for the job. This is especially useful in tournaments where you need to be able to face a wide variety of armies with a single list. Up against mech IG? Lascannon away. Going up against a green tide? Deep strike off an icon and kill them with fire. They can even switch roles in the course of a game. Have them ready to plasma cannon the squishies that coming pouring out of vehicle you plan to destroy with another unit, but if the other unit fails the obliterators get their chance to pick up the slack. They aren't cheap and are vulnerable against certain armies, but they bring something to the table that basically no other unit in the game can.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:They can even switch roles in the course of a game.

That's an asset I like to have available and a big point for them to be used, IMO.

It is harder to deny an obliterator cult than, let's say any CC or shooty specialist, precisely because of their flexibility.