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Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Still doesn't say he was possessed. Gifted immense power, but not possessed by all the power of the Chaos Gods, that's ludicrous, use some common sense. If he were possessed by all four Chaos Gods at once he would the most powerful being to ever exist, and it would mean the Chaos Gods had managed to physically enter the material world. The entire Horus Heresy deserved but a flicker of their attentions, they certainly didn't pour all their power into one being.

A flicker of their attentions?

They feared the Emperor, and were jealous of the power he was gaining. The Gods don't unite unless there is something that seriously poses a threat to them. Though it is true that Horus did not literally have the full power of Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch at his disposal.

And the idea that the Emperor could have effortlessly beaten Horus at any time is quite frankly a lie propagated by Emperor fanboys, were the gap so large the Emperor could have easily restrained Horus. But he could not, to defeat Horus required the Emperor's full power, and what most ignore is that Horus could have killed the Emperor, but held back, hesitating from delivering the fatal blow that would have ended his father.

Edit: Though, Sanguinius frankly is kind of overrated. I have seen nothing that suggests he is the strongest Primarch, much less that he could have beaten any two at once. Hell, Corax only thinks Sanguinius could "maybe" best Angron in physical combat.

While the 2 primarchs thing may have been overstating it, Sanguinius was uncontestably the most potent primarch.

And before chaos The empy could have auto pwn'd horus, because he has no defense against psychic powers.

And the last blow thing I seriously doubt. Either way accounts are too varied. In some the Empy was just standing there waiting and talking then decided to win, in some he only won because of Sanguinius.

im2randomghgh wrote:While the 2 primarchs thing may have been overstating it, Sanguinius was uncontestably the most potent primarch.

And before chaos The empy could have auto pwn'd horus, because he has no defense against psychic powers.

And the last blow thing I seriously doubt. Either way accounts are too varied. In some the Empy was just standing there waiting and talking then decided to win, in some he only won because of Sanguinius.

By all means, show me something that says so. Considering Corax seemed to think Horus' chances against Angron were better than Sanguinius' in martial combat, and considering Magnus' vast psyker powers and Titan-crushing feats, I don't see anything that suggests Sanguinius was the strongest of the Primarchs. I could buy him being among the stronger Primarchs, but nothing suggests he was tops.

Well... Yeah. No Primarch, not even Magnus with all his psychic might, was the equal of the Emperor.

You can doubt whatever you want, the Chaos Marine codex directly states it. Granted, I will give you that the accounts do vary a bit.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:While the 2 primarchs thing may have been overstating it, Sanguinius was uncontestably the most potent primarch.

And before chaos The empy could have auto pwn'd horus, because he has no defense against psychic powers.

And the last blow thing I seriously doubt. Either way accounts are too varied. In some the Empy was just standing there waiting and talking then decided to win, in some he only won because of Sanguinius.

By all means, show me something that says so. Considering Corax seemed to think Horus' chances against Angron were better than Sanguinius' in martial combat, and considering Magnus' vast psyker powers and Titan-crushing feats, I don't see anything that suggests Sanguinius was the strongest of the Primarchs. I could buy him being among the stronger Primarchs, but nothing suggests he was tops.

Well... Yeah. No Primarch, not even Magnus with all his psychic might, was the equal of the Emperor.

You can doubt whatever you want, the Chaos Marine codex directly states it. Granted, I will give you that the accounts do vary a bit.

He killed a bloodletter. GD are stronger than princes, and angron was a prince.

Plus Horus explicitly stated before corruption that Sanguinius was the most individually powerful.

im2randomghgh wrote:He killed a bloodletter. GD are stronger than princes, and angron was a prince.

Plus Horus explicitly stated before corruption that Sanguinius was the most individually powerful.

I am, uh, pretty sure you mean a Bloodthirster. Not a Bloodletter. You've made that mistake twice now. A Bloodletter is a lesser Daemon of Khorne. And not every Greater Daemon is stronger than a Daemon Prince. Hell, by your own words a while back you acknowledged Doombreed, a Prince, as being superior to An'ggrath, a Bloodthirster. Also, Titans that dwarf Warlord Titans are quite a bit above a Bloodthirster. Magnus has destroyed such things. IIRC Angron is explicitly described as the strongest servant of Khorne.

When? He thought he should be Warmaster, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is the most individually powerful.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:He killed a bloodletter. GD are stronger than princes, and angron was a prince.

Plus Horus explicitly stated before corruption that Sanguinius was the most individually powerful.

I am, uh, pretty sure you mean a Bloodthirster. Not a Bloodletter. You've made that mistake twice now. A Bloodletter is a lesser Daemon of Khorne. And not every Greater Daemon is stronger than a Daemon Prince. Hell, by your own words a while back you acknowledged Doombreed, a Prince, as being superior to An'ggrath, a Bloodthirster. Also, Titans that dwarf Warlord Titans are quite a bit above a Bloodthirster. Magnus has destroyed such things. IIRC Angron is explicitly described as the strongest servant of Khorne.

When? He thought he should be Warmaster, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is the most individually powerful.

Yes, I meant Bloodthrister.

And doombreed is the only exception, made back when Khorne's age could be measured in two digits. But no, Greater Daemons serve up steaming heaps of rape-sauce upon princes.

And NO, Angron is NOT the most powerful servant of Khorne. An'ggrath > Angron, Doombreed > An'ggrath.

Angron is so powerful he has Bloodthirsters as bodyguards.

coolyo294 wrote:Angron is so powerful he has Bloodthirsters as bodyguards.

Naw G.

An'ggrath is the Guardian of the throne. Angron does NOT have Bloodthirster bodyguards.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes, I meant Bloodthrister.

And doombreed is the only exception, made back when Khorne's age could be measured in two digits. But no, Greater Daemons serve up steaming heaps of rape-sauce upon princes.

And NO, Angron is NOT the most powerful servant of Khorne. An'ggrath > Angron, Doombreed > An'ggrath.

Thought so.

"Only exception" my ass. Angron has fething Bloodthirsters as bodyguards.

"To the west, Angron himself led an attack against Helsreach and Infernus hives. Entire companies of World Eaters berzerkers butchered their ways through the defense lines, and alongside Angron stalked twelve towering, gore-clad Bloodthirsters, most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
- Space Wolves codex, page 22

Please stop this.

Please, by all means, find me something that says Doombreed is stronger than Angron, or actually, even An'ggrath. Seriously, where the hell is this assumption coming from? Liber Chaotica doesn't state it, nor did the Chaos Marines codex, it seems like it's just made up because he's fething Genghis Khan.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes, I meant Bloodthrister.

And doombreed is the only exception, made back when Khorne's age could be measured in two digits. But no, Greater Daemons serve up steaming heaps of rape-sauce upon princes.

And NO, Angron is NOT the most powerful servant of Khorne. An'ggrath > Angron, Doombreed > An'ggrath.

Thought so.

"Only exception" my ass. Angron has fething Bloodthirsters as bodyguards.

"To the west, Angron himself led an attack against Helsreach and Infernus hives. Entire companies of World Eaters berzerkers butchered their ways through the defense lines, and alongside Angron stalked twelve towering, gore-clad Bloodthirsters, most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
- Space Wolves codex, page 22

Please stop this.

Please, by all means, find me something that says Doombreed is stronger than Angron, or actually, even An'ggrath. Seriously, where the hell is this assumption coming from? Liber Chaotica doesn't state it, nor did the Chaos Marines codex, it seems like it's just made up because he's fething Genghis Khan.

^Didn't say they were bodyguards. Of course he's stronger than a run of the mill Bloodthirster, he's a daemon primarch.

Doombreed is the Khornate counterpart for Tallomin, Tallomin who is THE PRINCE OF DAEMON PRINCES.

PLUS he single handedly destroyed two chapters of Space Marines. Plus he is the favoured of all khorne's servants. Plus he is only marginally younger than KHORNE.

Because of his personal involvement, the fifth great crusade is arguably the only one to ever have any measure of success, killing thousands of SM and millions of guardsmen.

Plus, Mongolian.

im2randomghgh wrote:^Didn't say they were bodyguards. Of course he's stronger than a run of the mill Bloodthirster, he's a daemon primarch.

Doombreed is the Khornate counterpart for Tallomin, Tallomin who is THE PRINCE OF DAEMON PRINCES.

PLUS he single handedly destroyed two chapters of Space Marines. Plus he is the favoured of all khorne's servants. Plus he is only marginally younger than KHORNE.

Because of his personal involvement, the fifth great crusade is arguably the only one to ever have any measure of success, killing thousands of SM and millions of guardsmen.

Plus, Mongolian.

Dude, you need to learn to just admit when you're wrong. This buttrage of your's is getting completely absurd, you directly stated Doombreed was the only exception to this rule, now you're like "WELL OF COURSE HE'S STRONGER." =\ Oh, and the passage goes on to refer to the Bloodthirsters as Angron's "lieutenants."

Tallomin who hasn't had so much as a peep mentioned about him since what? Second edition or so? What does his fluff say by the way? I've tried to find a second edition Chaos codex, but couldn't find.

Single-handedly? His Black Crusade did, where does it say he personally did himself, alone? Only the more recent fluff dictates Angron is the most favoured of Khorne's servants. His age means nothing at all.

Hurderp nope nope nope. Hell, let's see what Liber Chaotica has to say on this matter?

"An ancient Prince of Khorne named Doombreed will sweep humanities' finest and purest to the brink of destruction. Few will fall if compared with other invasions, but the price will be high indeed. His war will be nothing less than a declaration of war upon the Adeptes, staunchest of all the foes of Chaos, and he will be defeated."

During that Crusade, the losses were lower than most others, Doombreed admittedly did more than Abaddon though, who just burned a city IIRC.

The 13th Black Crusade has smashed past the Cadian Gate though, and the Gothic War was more successful as well.

1d4chan is not as fluff-savvy as it likes to think.

And weren't we talking about Sanguinius?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lord of Caliban wrote:Yes, Rogal Dorn is pretty cool, he saved the Emperor. Sorta.

Not just sorta, when you think of the fact the loyalists BARELY survived despite his fortification of the Imperial Palace.

Better it is to barely survive than not at all.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:^Didn't say they were bodyguards. Of course he's stronger than a run of the mill Bloodthirster, he's a daemon primarch.

Doombreed is the Khornate counterpart for Tallomin, Tallomin who is THE PRINCE OF DAEMON PRINCES.

PLUS he single handedly destroyed two chapters of Space Marines. Plus he is the favoured of all khorne's servants. Plus he is only marginally younger than KHORNE.

Because of his personal involvement, the fifth great crusade is arguably the only one to ever have any measure of success, killing thousands of SM and millions of guardsmen.

Plus, Mongolian.

Dude, you need to learn to just admit when you're wrong. This buttrage of your's is getting completely absurd, you directly stated Doombreed was the only exception to this rule, now you're like "WELL OF COURSE HE'S STRONGER." =\ Oh, and the passage goes on to refer to the Bloodthirsters as Angron's "lieutenants."

Tallomin who hasn't had so much as a peep mentioned about him since what? Second edition or so? What does his fluff say by the way? I've tried to find a second edition Chaos codex, but couldn't find.

Single-handedly? His Black Crusade did, where does it say he personally did himself, alone? Only the more recent fluff dictates Angron is the most favoured of Khorne's servants. His age means nothing at all.

Hurderp nope nope nope. Hell, let's see what Liber Chaotica has to say on this matter?

"An ancient Prince of Khorne named Doombreed will sweep humanities' finest and purest to the brink of destruction. Few will fall if compared with other invasions, but the price will be high indeed. His war will be nothing less than a declaration of war upon the Adeptes, staunchest of all the foes of Chaos, and he will be defeated."

During that Crusade, the losses were lower than most others, Doombreed admittedly did more than Abaddon though, who just burned a city IIRC.

The 13th Black Crusade has smashed past the Cadian Gate though, and the Gothic War was more successful as well.

1d4chan is not as fluff-savvy as it likes to think.

And weren't we talking about Sanguinius?

Okay, so you were calling ME a troll, then you post "Hurderp nope nope nope" and start talking about 1d4chan.

.

So are all Space Marines.

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay, so you were calling ME a troll, then you post "Hurderp nope nope nope" and start talking about 1d4chan.

I apologise if my assumption that you were getting this from 1d4chan was inaccurate, and upon reflection I was more disrespectful than I should have been in my post.

But my points still stand.

Lord of Caliban wrote:Yes, Sanguinius is cool, but he is a mutant.

Many Primarchs are.

Lord of Caliban wrote:Yes, Sanguinius is cool, but he is a mutant.

So were a lot of Primarchs.

I don't know how this lands them in "power" but GD are
"closest in nature and spirit to thier overlords"
Where Daemon Princes, even primarchs are
"mortal champions of chaos"

I think it's a reasonable assumption GD>DP the primarch bit throws a loop in but *shrug* what are you going to do.

AustonT wrote:I don't know how this lands them in "power" but GD are
"closest in nature and spirit to thier overlords"
Where Daemon Princes, even primarchs are
"mortal champions of chaos"

I think it's a reasonable assumption GD>DP the primarch bit throws a loop in but *shrug* what are you going to do.

Only Angron takes Greater Daemons as lieautenants.

Yeah and Dante and Necrons fist bump and go their separate ways...wait. I take some of the codex dribbles in the last couple runs wit a large grain of salt.

AustonT wrote:Yeah and Dante and Necrons fist bump and go their separate ways...wait. I take some of the codex dribbles in the last couple runs wit a large grain of salt.

Both White Dwarf and the Space Wolves codex support Angron being superior to a Bloodthirster.

This shouldn't really be surprising. Hell, Ahriman's sorcery is described as rivaling that of a Lord of Change's, and Magnus the Red is much stronger than Ahriman is.

Only Horus would be able to take on Angron,and win.Sanguinius may have been able to compete,but never best Angron.Anyone who says Sanguinius could have taken any two primarchs(ie,Horus and Angron),is either a fanboy,or trolling.Sorry,but htat is the truth.The Emperor could barely take Horus,so I doubt he could beat Horus and Angron,who is a nut job fighter.

Vulkan, because fighting half naked with two hammers is the best way to deal with the enemies of man.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Still doesn't say he was possessed. Gifted immense power, but not possessed by all the power of the Chaos Gods, that's ludicrous, use some common sense. If he were possessed by all four Chaos Gods at once he would the most powerful being to ever exist, and it would mean the Chaos Gods had managed to physically enter the material world. The entire Horus Heresy deserved but a flicker of their attentions, they certainly didn't pour all their power into one being.

Flicker of their attention? It was a desperate last chance because they were ceasing to exist due to the Emperor. Every ounce of their attention was focused exclusively on this. The Emperor almost destroyed chaos.

Nope. They united in a time of crisis, their attentions reach through time , they're more concerned with the Great Game than what happens in the material realm, so yes, the whole Horus Heresy was but a flicker of their attention.

And he was. The repenting was because he had just ceased to be possessed at the end of the fight. The reason the Emperor was wounded was because he was fighting four gods and a demi god. He only won because of the hole Sanguinius made in Horus' armour.

He repented after the Emperor's psychic attack. The Emperor was wounded so badly because he refused to use his full might against his favored son, and only summoned it when Horus killed the Custode/Imperial Fists Marine/Ollanius Pious.

Also, their fight was described as "Mental, physical, and psychic". Horus wasn't psychic. The gods ARE.

I don't think it's appropriate to call the Chaos Gods "psychic". They're far more than just that, they're pure embodiements of the Warp, they gifted Horus with power, blessed him with strength and sorcery.

All the power of Chaos was within the Warmaster aboard the Vengeful Spirit.

Ludicrous. You have nothing that backs your claim of possession. Horus was not possessed by all the powers of all four Chaos Gods.

That's why the battle below, on the surface of Terra, was decide as soon as the Emperor won. Because the daemons were insta-banished, and the CA were in disarray, because they no longer had chaos helping them, and the overwhelming odds caught up with them. The only thing that could ever have won them the battle at that point would have been Malcador dying before the Emperor could be placed upon the throne.

"overwhelming odds"? The Daemons banishing did not cause the Chaos Marines to suddenly become outnumbered. With the death of their Primarch, the Sons of Horus withdrew, and the rest followed. Their spirit was broken, so they fled, also because of the immanent arrival of the other loyalist Legions, but they would have won if they had continued.

iproxtaco wrote:
They united in a time of crisis, their attentions reach through time , they're more concerned with the Great Game than what happens in the material realm, so yes, the whole Horus Heresy was but a flicker of their attention.

If it was a "flicker", why were they in a hurry to leave?
seems they had more ties to it than youre willing to accept.

iproxtaco wrote:
"overwhelming odds"? The Daemons banishing did not cause the Chaos Marines to suddenly become outnumbered. With the death of their Primarch, the Sons of Horus withdrew, and the rest followed. Their spirit was broken, so they fled, also because of the immanent arrival of the other loyalist Legions, but they would have won if they had continued.

So they basically run away, like usual?

I'd like to see their "win" if they stayed. Certainly this galaxy would be free of CSM now.
Why don't they make a stand?

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
They united in a time of crisis, their attentions reach through time , they're more concerned with the Great Game than what happens in the material realm, so yes, the whole Horus Heresy was but a flicker of their attention.

If it was a "flicker", why were they in a hurry to leave?
seems they had more ties to it than youre willing to accept.

They're far more concerned with the Great Game, and what goes on in the Warp than they are with the material realm. Their consciousness's are vast, they concentrate on things through time and space, the Warp is a realm without either. The whole Horus Heresy, as important as it it was to them, was but a moment of their attentions.

iproxtaco wrote:
"overwhelming odds"? The Daemons banishing did not cause the Chaos Marines to suddenly become outnumbered. With the death of their Primarch, the Sons of Horus withdrew, and the rest followed. Their spirit was broken, so they fled, also because of the immanent arrival of the other loyalist Legions, but they would have won if they had continued.

So they basically run away, like usual?

I'd like to see their "win" if they stayed. Certainly this galaxy would be free of CSM now.
Why don't they make a stand?

They would have taken the Palace. Considering all Traitor Legions were present in full AFAIK, they would have breached the palace with both Sanguinus and The Emperor gone. Whether they could have beaten back the reinforcements I admit is dubious.

Looking forward to see a winner in that "great" game.
Cause if that happens chaos ceases to exist.

On other news, I just want them to stop running away. It gets annoying to chase them around.

I vote best Primarch is who manages to be the "last one standing". Like a royal rumble event...

The Great Game will never end..

Void__Dragon wrote:

AustonT wrote:Yeah and Dante and Necrons fist bump and go their separate ways...wait. I take some of the codex dribbles in the last couple runs wit a large grain of salt.

Both White Dwarf and the Space Wolves codex support Angron being superior to a Bloodthirster.

This shouldn't really be surprising. Hell, Ahriman's sorcery is described as rivaling that of a Lord of Change's, and Magnus the Red is much stronger than Ahriman is.

I don't really have a horse in this race, I just find some of the latest fluff a little dubious. As far as Ahriman goes, I'm starting to form the opinion that humanity can draw on it's own form of magic like the characters in the HH novels that just BELIEVE in the empero and gak happens, long before he is enthroned. Ahrimans natural psycher abilities and a discovery to tap human magika and maybe Eldar would reasonably make him extremely powerful. And Magnus is like his Obi-wan

Deadshot wrote:Only Horus would be able to take on Angron,and win.Sanguinius may have been able to compete,but never best Angron.Anyone who says Sanguinius could have taken any two primarchs(ie,Horus and Angron),is either a fanboy,or trolling.Sorry,but htat is the truth.The Emperor could barely take Horus,so I doubt he could beat Horus and Angron,who is a nut job fighter.

Horus got power-boosted by chaos, ordinarily EMPY would auto_win vs a single primarch.

And Sanguinius could have choked horus or Angron with their own entrails.