Sisters of Battle WD part 2

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**Ixquic**

I can understand why Sisters hate psykers so much now seeing as they have absolutely zero defense against that stuff.

**Vaktathi**

calypso2ts wrote:
For the record Heavy Bolters suck - there is a reason noone takes them, even guard take Hull Heavy Flamers and not Heavy Bolters...

That's typically because they can't move and use the HB and whatever other weapons they have so the HF gives them a different capability. If the Defensive Weapons rules went back to their 4E incarnation, you'd see those HF's flying off and HB's in vogue again in many cases.

That said, from the rumors we are seeing, I do have to ask why GW bothered with this update. It doesn't appear they are really updating it to a "5E" standard aside from transport/EA pricing, and many of the other changes seem to be there just for the sake of change in and of itself to say they did an update. While I don't think it's as bad as some are making out, from what it looks like basic sisters squads after kit and transport will be a bit cheaper, this whole event does seem sorta pointless seeing as how on the whole army composition won't appear to change much, if at all.

**The Dwarf Wolf**

I am one of those crazy guys who like sisters for their look, yeah, i like those metal chicks... I was wondering making a sister army for a long time, i am right now... They are in third within my list (first goes space dwarves in power armor, them orcs in space, and them comes the sisters).

I was pretty excited for those WD codex, thinking if the sister could became a little better, now if i ever do a sister army i will count them as blood angels, or beg my opponet to let me use the old codex.

Serious: never compare costs with tactical marines, they are overcosted, every marine player know it, besides their good stats, units of them dont work well. Marine armies are meant to be played with Veterans/Termies/Devs and tacticals fulfilling troops...

I think sisters now are meant to do the same, and their units are pretty "marine styled", so compare what sisters get with what marines get. Marines are poor in offensive power, they are a defensive army. Sister loose defense, so we should see more offensive power, and as we see now, it is not happening...

**Omegus**

12 points... so MORE expensive. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA.

Suck on that, apologists.

**Vaktathi**

Omegus wrote:12 points... so MORE expensive. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA.

Suck on that, apologists.

More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.

**carmachu**

Celtic Strike wrote:
Yes, but imagine how much your opponent will want to break something if you make them at the *Right* time? That's why I play this game, for crazy gak to happen like that.

It was awesome when 2 guardsmen killed 2 terminators in close combat. Its funny, but if I'm playing for the awesome random moments then I'm playing for the wrong reason. I like being able to predict what should happen statisically in the game.

**Omegus**

Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.

While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm

**Panic**

yeah,

DarknessEternal wrote:There are 4 Sisters of Battle for every Marine.

Those Lucky Devils.

Panic...

**Ixquic**

Crazy crap happening is acceptable in board games or small skirmish stuff like Mordheim or Blood Bowl and is typically handled in a more colorful way (guys breaking legs, getting stuck in death cult fighting pits, etc). When I am paying upwards of $1000 for an army to use in a strategic game, I want it to function on a semi reliable level. Randomness of dice are always a factor but highly unlikely odds influencing stuff is always frustrating.

**ShumaGorath**

Omegus wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.

While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm

You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good. Either way "Suck on it apologists" is something a troll says.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:Crazy crap happening is acceptable in board games or small skirmish stuff like Mordheim or Blood Bowl and is typically handled in a more colorful way (guys breaking legs, getting stuck in death cult fighting pits, etc). When I am paying upwards of $1000 for an army to use in a strategic game, I want it to function on a semi reliable level. Randomness of dice are always a factor but highly unlikely odds influencing stuff is always frustrating.

I also hate "Steal the initiative".

**streamdragon**

ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.

Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?

**Ixquic**

I would say that Dominions that are potentially twin linked and scout are better even if they can't get four special weapons for five models.

Repentia are better having lost the "can't get into transports ever" rule and having one more attack. Being able to take a cover and a FNP save is also handy.

**Omegus**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.

While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm

You gain a bit you lose a ~~bit~~ lot. Several entries in the book are ~~downright~~slightly ~~better~~more acceptable now, while the basic sister squad is different ~~and still~~but not quite as good. Either way "Suck on it apologists" is something a ~~troll~~a realist who knows GW doesn't gak rainbows says.

Fix't.

**ShumaGorath**

streamdragon wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.
Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?

Repentia. Dominions.

**Vaktathi**

Omegus wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.

While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm

Not saying it's a gain, it looks to be a wash after everything is said and done. Cheaper, Frag(admittedly mostly useless)/Krak(not useless)/(Pistol?)/6++ in exchange for losing 5+sv against psychic powers (extremely situational), some Faith functionality and an Ld wargear upgrade option.

**Omegus**

You are seriously understating the importance of "some faith functionality and a Ld wargear upgrade option".

**Melissia**

streamdragon wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.
Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?

Dominions and Celestine are the only ones that are flat out better.

Ixquic wrote:I would say that Dominions that are potentially twin linked and scout are better even if they can't get four special weapons for five models.

Dominions are definitely better. We'll see just how much so, though. The change to no required transport is odd....

**streamdragon**

I'm still going to miss 4 melta Dominions in an Immo though :( With no DG I can't really think of a reason I'd run Flamer Dominions anymore though.

**Spiku**

That book provided -unmodifiable- 9 or 10 Ld to the sisters.

The acts of faith included the 3++ invulnerable save, usable in any phase.

No 5+ save, and lack of ability to take an inquisitor with psychic hood, mean we no anti psyker skill at all.

Dominion upgrade is good for scout, bad for weapon compliment.

Repentia are better, but still not worth taking, FNP on T3 is nearly nice, but being slower and having to rely on a transport slot isn't useful.

Seraphim losing no init tested hit n run, and faith, is a huge pain. Having double tap back is nice though, but weaker flamers aren't. having init 1 when priests get init 4 is kind of a gyp.

Canoness being useless, no fun.

Immolator losing 12 inch move flamers

What you should consider is now they don't have the very defining faith system, they now have nothing that other armies can't just do better.

**pretre**

Thank you LC for the more accurate confirmation post from WD.

This thread reminds me of why I hate reading sisters threads anymore. Sigh.

I imagine a collective cringe amongst the mods everytime there is a new one created.

**streamdragon**

Dunno, but I find the first line in your sig sort of funny now.

**ShumaGorath**

Spiku wrote:That book provided -unmodifiable- 9 or 10 Ld to the sisters.

The acts of faith included the 3++ invulnerable save, usable in any phase.

No 5+ save, and lack of ability to take an inquisitor with psychic hood, mean we no anti psyker skill at all.

Dominion upgrade is good for scout, bad for weapon compliment.

Repentia are better, but still not worth taking, FNP on T3 is nearly nice, but being slower and having to rely on a transport slot isn't useful.

Seraphim losing no init tested hit n run, and faith, is a huge pain. Having double tap back is nice though, but weaker flamers aren't. having init 1 when priests get init 4 is kind of a gyp.

Canoness being useless, no fun.

Immolator losing 12 inch move flamers

What you should consider is now they don't have the very defining faith system, they now have nothing that other armies can't just do better.

Now you know what it is to be an ultramarine!

**Spiku**

I miss them double librarian ultramarine days~

**Ixquic**

streamdragon wrote:I'm still going to miss 4 melta Dominions in an Immo though :( With no DG I can't really think of a reason I'd run Flamer Dominions anymore though.

I thought someone did the math and twin linked flamers against Marines did more wounds than rending due to wound allocation shenanigans.

**streamdragon**

Marines have wound allocation shenanigans? I mean, I know Nobz do, I know Wolf Guard can...

Hm... numbers for 4x Flamers. For this exercise, we assume 10 models hit by each flamer (they just got out of their rhino or something, I dunno):

TL:
40 hits * .75 * .33 = 9.9 (ouch)

DG:
40 hits:
1/6 wound w/ No save = 6.66...
2/6 wound w/ 3+ save = 4.44...
Total: approx 11 dead (in case of multi-wound character w/ unit)

I guess it comes out close enough, but when you move onto things like Terminators the numbers really end up in favor of DG still.

Unless I messed something up, which is likely since I haven't had my caffeine yet today...

**Ixquic**

Depending on what's going you can load up all the AP1 shots on your special weapon or sergeant to save more models. Not as good as nobs but I've had multiple AP1 wounds neutralized in such a manner in some circumstances.

On the other hand against anything with a 5+ save twin linked comes out far ahead.

I don't see the nerf to divine guidance as that much of a problem for Dominions. Especially since it did nothing for melta guns while now we can reroll hits.

Against regular five Terminators divine guidance results in 3.333 wounds. Twin linked gives 2.5.

Against Storm Shield Terminators (probably the more common variety these days) it's 2.2222 wounds so twin linked comes out ahead.

**Melissia**

Summary from Sister Rosette Soulknyt on BoLSL:

Okay here we go, got the WD in my hands.

Lots of shocks, and some of NOW have more reason to winge than before IMO, so for all those that said wait until the second part came out, well......WE TOLD YOU SO.
IMO, this is a travesty of crud, wasted time, laziness and poor handling from a company such as GW.

This is what you get now.
Firstly whats NOT available now:
Blessed Weapon
Book of St Lucius
Brazier of Holy Fire
Cloak of St Aspira
Litanies of Faith
Mantle of Ophelia
Praesidium Protectiva
Purity Seals
Sacred Banner of the Order Militant
Sarissa
Blessed Ammunition
Holy Icon
Holy Promethium
Laud Hailers

All those are now missing from 3rd edition, meaning nearly all of the Wargear good for SoB are now gone, yep, GW right royally shafted them here.

What you get though:
Laud Hailers for squads; unit within 12" on a 6 on d6 get a Faith point back
Simulacrum Imperialus; re-rolls faith tests now
Chirurgeons tools; grant FNP
Blessed Banner; within 12" re-roll Moral/Pinning and score 1 extra wound in CC while she is alive.

Rundown of each unit:
St. Celestine is 115 points
Cannoness is 65 point + wargear (no jump packs anymore but can take a Rosarious)
Sororitas Command Squads 115 points for 3 Celestians, 1 Dialogus, 1 Hospitaler, can take 3 heavy weapons
Uriah and Kyrinov both 90 points.
Ecclesiachy Confessors 75 + wargear
Battle Conclave 15 points each (can take a transport now)
Ecclesiarchy Priest 45 plus wargear.
Celestian Squad 80 = 15 per Celestian for additional 5 + wargear
Repentia Squad 90 + 17 per for additional 5, (now max 10 not 20)
Battlesister Squad 125 +12 each for additional 10 (max size 10-20, can choose any heavy weapon now)
Rhino 35
Immolator 65
Seraphin 80 + 15 each for additional 5 (2xhand flamers cost 20 per model or Inferno costs 30)
Dominion 70 +13 per additional upto 5. (have to take 10 to get 4x Special Weapons now)
Retributor Squad 65 +12 each (can take HF, MM or HB) now useful in Immolators.
Excorsist 135 (NO change to stats, still only glances AV14 on a 6)
Penitant Engines 85 each (squads of 3 comes with 2x heavy flamers now)

So over all, not happy, sad to see them being shafted as they are. Celestians can't complete with the likes of Paladins, Sangiunory gaurds or any other elite specialist. You cant take 4 special weapon Dominion squads in Immolators now, you need more Rhinos. Still lacking any long range weapons to take on AV3+ (big let down for the Excorsist), and loosing out on Celestians gaining any form of CC weapon (only Superior can) is painful.
So overall prices are up from 11 points overall, loosing valuable wargear, and NO new units to counter codex broken armies like BA or GK's is just a let down.
I stand by that as soon as i heard of the WD release, i knew GW would never commit to feasible play with the SoB, i stand by my words that GW has made a mockery of SoB and poorly submitted itself in any form of explanation to how truely crap this WD codex is.
I plan to test these rules this weekend in a 1,000 point tournament.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:On the other hand against anything with a 5+ save twin linked comes out far ahead.

... so? When did they EVER have problems killing enemies with 5+ saves anyway? Killing MEQ and tanks are what Sisters have problems with.

**pretre**

streamdragon wrote:Dunno, but I find the first line in your sig sort of funny now.

lol I forgot what I had in there. I have sigs disabled by default.

Yeah, it is still a good quote and is true everytime it gets posted.

edit: Ugh, turning sigs back off. I'm blind!

Also, I love the line that says 'Celestians can't compete with Paladins.' lol

Anyways, I'll leave this thread back to its regularly scheduled sisters flame fest.

**Redbeard**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360870.page

**Melissia**

pretre wrote:
streamdragon wrote:Dunno, but I find the first line in your sig sort of funny now.

lol I forgot what I had in there. I have sigs disabled by default.

Yeah, it is still a good quote and is true everytime it gets posted.

edit: Ugh, turning sigs back off. I'm blind!

Also, I love the line that says 'Celestians can't compete with Paladins.' lol

The only units they can really compete with are stormtroopers and the like.