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so ive had a few games now recently using a venom spam shooty cabal list. and absoultly curb stomped my opponent. we did go into the game ahead of time agreed to tournament grade lists. after 3 games (a 1000 point, a 2500 called due to time, and a second 2500 on vassal) plus a few others previously, my gaming group has pretty much said its too much and dont bring it anymore. i am wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this, and if there is a list out there that can compete and defeat it? the most recent attempt was a eldar skmmer army using lots of vypers (scatter/shuriken cannon loadouts) and jetbikes as troops, wich i tabled in 3 turns. i ask simply because i love playing dark eldar but i dont want to bring the "hyper flying death fleet" to friendly games. this is the 2500 pt list i used recently. yea i realize the archons court is useless, and honestly they did nothing...didnt even get out of the raider. the hellions and jetbikes also proved pretty much redundant getting shot up to 4 and 2 men left respectivly. but the venoms and warriors pretty much dominated the battle.
army lists were agreed to 2515 points.

HQ: = 515
Archon w/shadow field, drugs, agonizer, blast pistol, = 135
court: w/ 1 lhamean, 2 medusae, 3 sslyth, 3 ur ghuls, raider w/ flicker field = 410

baron sathoyx = 105


Elites: = 519
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173

Troops: = 750
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125

Fast Attack: = 381
9 reavers w/ 3 heat lances, arena champ = 253
9 hellions = 128

Heavy support: = 345
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115


total 2503

so any lists that can have a real shot at taking this down? or is the venom spam pretty much the current ultimate curbstomp delevery system people here are saying it is?

It is a good army. But far from unbeatable. Besides the general argument that no list is unbeatable, A Mech IG list with hydras can really do some damage against Venom Spam.

In addition, while you have lots of blasters, a mechanized enemy with lots of firepower at long range can be a real problem for Venom spam.

Personally, to make it slightly better, I would get rid of the Hellions and Jetbikes. The Heat Lances aren't really necessary when you have so much anti-tank already. Instead, for a nice unit that can do both anti-infantry and anti-tank, I'd take two squads of Beastmasters, with 3 beastmasters, 4 Khymera, and 4 Razorwing Flocks. And then take a Haemonculus, barebones with a Webway portal, and have him zoom up with one of the Trueborn squads, hop out, and drop the portal. Join the Baron to one of the Beastmasters so that they benefit from stealth, and bam. You've got two slightly more useful units that can get into combat easier.

If all the values you've posted are accurate, you're running a 2645 point army in a 2500 game. That may explain a lot.

Venom spam is a good army, but it's far from the best list (even the best Dark Eldar list). I think it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of ranged anti tank. The list also begins to crumble as the Venoms go down. I'd recommend a more balanced approach.

It looks like some of you didn't actually read the OP. He isn't looking for advice to make it better, he is saying it is too good and his friends won't play against him. The question asked was, what army can beat his list?

To that, I agree with extrenm, mech guard is going to be the best bet. Tons of multi lasers, autocannons, long range big guns. Gorechild also makes a good point, in that your points are way over!

Every mechanized list has a good shot at beating this. It only has 4 targets which can harm vehicles from greater than 18".

Yeah, like Gorechild said, you have too many points. I got 2615, not 2645, but either way, you're adding in AT LEAST an extra full Ravager. Check your points again and fix them. They may be the reason you're tearing your friends apart. I understand you said your court didn't do anything, and you can take the points out of that. Or...remove a Ravager to be right on the dot. Otherwise, it doesn't look like a beatstick list and your friends just need to change tactics.

It's also illegal because you have the Baron, and your Hellions are in FA. You don't have the choice to field them that way - Hellions are troops with the Baron, meaning that you have 7 troops choices.

Grey Knights would maul this list.

All of your AT (with the exception of the 3 ravagers) has only an 18" range. All those Psycannons and Storm Bolters and crazy gak would rip this list up at that range.

Mechanized Blood Angel razorback spam could also do a number on this list.

Mech Guard, as many have already mentioned.

Basically, anything mechanized that has greater than 18 inch range, and more durability than an AV 10 open-topped vehicle. They could just sit back, force you to come to them, and pew pew.

Any dedicated anti-tank list would maul this. Even GKs.

Wych spam > venom spam IMO

i come up with 2501. (orginal list had blasters on bikes, changed for heatlance diffrence of -9 pts) i suspect the problem is i posted thearchons value twice. the archon himself is 135, his court is 205, the raider 70, and the baron 105. total comes to 515. the way its listed looks like im doing 135 for archon plus 410 for the court etc, and another 105 for baron, wich would make the total 650 on hq instead of the 515 it should be. (a diffrence of 135 pts) i believe the error came when i copy and pasted my .doc army list and deleted the individual points and errored in how i did so with the hq. my usual army list is: "unit w/# models (pts) w/ wargear (pts), wargear (pts), wargear (pts) = total."

otherwise i used the jetbikes / hellions simply becasue i dont own any beastmaster units, and needed something to fill out points. since hev, troops, hq and elietes are full, im left with fast attack, and only models i own for that are bikes and hellions.


update to orginal question: talked it out with group and we decided a "meat block" of gaurd with tons of AC would pose a threat, and GK with proper optimized build could also challenge. main problem is none of them have those armys/models so we are left with using vassal. to expand the query further, armys available are chaos, (x2) tau, wolves, and marines. and to some extent eldar.

Good army but far from unbeatable, anyone with enough anti-transport firepower would give you a hard time. (Which translates to every competitive army, since this is 5th ed)

If you take Raider's rather than Venoms people will percieve your list as being less spammy and over-powered. I think its a combination of the Venom being new and quite cheap that automatically makes people think its OP. Don't get me wrong, they are very good, but once another codex or two are released old nobody will bat an eyelid.

I really don't like toning down a list, and seeing as you've already thrown hundreds of points into sub-optimal units (Reavers, Hellions, Court) I'm inclined to suggest that its your opponents lists that are the problem, not yours. If you had a couple of big units of beasts or scourges or something, then dropped the Court I could understand why they're complaining, but as it stands, you're not running a stupidly OP list.

Maybe swap out 2 units of Warrirors for two units of 9 Wyches and a Haemonculus in a Raider. Dropping the court and Archon will give you more than enough points. IMO that would be an improvement to the list, but as its more varied and there is 1 less vehicle on the board, your opponents might take to it more kindly.

If your friend has Chaos and is looking for a way give you a better game, then a 6 walker Chaos list with lots of plague marines in rhinos can be an issue for this army. I am by no means saying that it can stomp you, but if the CSM player is able to focus fire on your ravengers and take them out early, then you are going to have a real issue dealing with the 6 AV 12 hulls and 6 AV 11 hulls while still being able to gun down over 30 plague marines.

I don't think this list is too bad. It has many problems (one of them having too many troops, as pointed out, including the baron makes the hellions troops, which makes this list have 7 troops), the other is that it is effectively a 1750 list with 900+ points of crap crammed into it. Really.

Archon and baron not really doing anything (beatstick? no not really) court is crap for how much it costs. Single smallish unit of hellions is crap, you need many more to make them decent. Jetbikes in the wrong type of list, and beastpacks are a better use of points.

So the effective core is 3 elite trublaster venom squads, 6 venom blaster warrior squads, and the typical 3 ravagers. That "core" of effective units comes to 1614, add an HQ (harmie or two to be cheap) and you are looking at 1750. The other units aren't a real threat, and are effectively distractions and points filler. So if your opponents can't beat what is really a disguised 1750 list, with a 2500 list, then their lists and tactics must truly be awful. Especially since you have very little long range anti tank, and what you have are on AV 11 open topped vehicles, and only 3 platforms of it.

Keep using this list (make it legal for gods sake though, and get your points right), when you opponents complain tell them that your list is 1/3 filler (though the other 2/3 is certainly scary for many opponents who don't 5th ed very well), and if they can't beat it maybe they should look towards themselves rather than crying cheese or whatever they do.

The issue with Venomspam over traditional Raider-rush is your rarely going flat out in favor of just getting your units into a shooting position, point, and shooting until things die. That being said, Venomspam doesn't offer much more shooting than a raiderspam list as far as AT goes (at 1850 I run 19 lance weapons in my wyche list), but offers tremendous amounts of anti-infantry shooting. The issue with venomspam here is that it has a rough time against other quick lists because instead of getting your cargo out and blasting you have to jockey for position against the opponent; which means less turns shooting. Venomspam has the benefit of blasting the hell out of things from turn 1!

But like many others said, its far from unbeatable. It suffers from the same weakness as any other DE list for the most part; fragility. Bolters will blast yoir venoms to pieces. Stunned or shaken results are easy to get on them. If you face things like Razorspam (which will easily outrange your blasters if played correctly) your gonna have a fight on your hands. IG tears venomspam to little bits, especially if they get T1. I will always prefer wyches over venomspam any day; but thats my personal choice Duke Sliscus ftw

I use raiders on my warrior units, for that bit more anti-tank. And I fill in the lost anti-infantry with razorwings.

yea i totally agree with you guys. this is my 1850 tourney list i "filled out" with models i had handy. didnt want to go and buy a bunch of new models just to hit the 2500 mark.

i believe i did explain the points thing though.

also re read the barons entry, and i suppose the wording does fully change hellions over to troops. i was under impression you could take them either as fast or troops with the baron. not going to cry over loosing them however. but thats exactly what i used the hellions and bikes for - was distraction. figured i would use them as mobile cover for my TB venoms and absoarb a round or to of fire. they did the job perfectly - and the bikes even managed to pop a couple of tanks (hammerhead and devilfish) last game.

i was thinking that the second incarnaiton of this list would be loosing 3 of the warrior venoms for wych raiders, and attaching an archon and some haemonculus to those wychs. for fast, i like the idea of beasts - i just dont have the models.

i also agree with the statements of looking to the other guys lists/tactics. they ARE using relics of 3rd with tau and chaos.. so that could be a pretty obvious handycap. but all in all everything they have tried has been beaten back.

i think for gaks n giggles i might just offer an "army swap" for a day. let them play my DE and ill take tau/chaos we each make lists and have at it. wonder if i'll beat them with there own sticks?

Venom spam is pretty sweet against a lot of stuff. My buddy runs one and it does really well against most lists at our local shop. I would have to say though that Mech Eldar will pose a huge threat to a venom spam list. When your looking at a ton of STR 6 shots, those venoms drop pretty fast. Not to mention a 12 armor serpent ramming into a 10 armor venom will do some damage.

Sweet list though man. Its def hard as hell to beat unless you have the right counter for it and those counters are few and far between.