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Was sitting in a waiting room today, and was wondering, are khorne berzerkers really better than their points in regular CSM squads with a mark of khorne? I mean, for 250 points you could get either...

11x CSM
MoK
2x meltaguns
champ with fist

or

10x khorne berzerkers
champ with fist

So, what do the berzerkers really have to offer over the CSM?

+1 WS: This ups their killing power by a sixth against marines, but otherwise, this really isn't doing a lot, as everything weaker is already hit on 3's. It also ups their survival a bit against other WS5 models, but there aren't a lot of these out there.

+1 I on the charge: Like weapon skill, this is a dubious advantage in killing power. Really, it seems to me to be more a way to increase their survivability for the round of close combat directly after the charge than anything else.

+1 S on the charge. Once again, this ups their killing power a little, but it's not upping it by a whole lot. Really, it just seems to make it so that they don't need to rely on krak grenades against vehicles.

Fearless: Yeah, but compared to Ld10, that's only so much of a benefit, given that these guys are basically always going to win any given round of combat before they're wiped.

So, what the berzerkers are getting is a little more killing power, and a tiny increase in durability. You know what else increases durability and killing power? The extra marine. But that's not all.

The MoK marines have the same number of attacks in close combat, but they also come with bolters. If they chose to double tap and then eat a charge, they are going to get 5 attacks per model to the berzerker's 4 (shooting pistols being of rather dubious use in my opinion), half of which are at Ap5. Then you get to add to this the meltas, and, if you want to shell out more points, a combi-melta or lascannon or something.

I mean, run it through three quick scenarios. Assume that the CSM fire once to 24" and then again at double-tap 12", and then eat the charge, while the berzerkers shoot their pistols and then charge. Against KFF ork boyz, the MoK kill 13 before the boyz get to swing, while the berzerkers get 15. Against Tac marines, the MoK kill 7 before the powerfist gets activated to the berzerker's 7. Against THSS termies, the MoK kill 3 before the first hammer blow to the berzerker's 3. I mean, in either case, we're seeing them do about the same amount of damage, and this is in absolutely ideal circumstances for the berzerkers.

In the real world, the berzerkers aren't always getting the charge (especially against ork boyz), and without the charge, they lose nearly all of their extra killing power. Plus, the berzerkers are BEHOLDEN to charge, having no other capabilities, while the CSM can always double tap those banshees or wyches, or shoot melta at that dreadnought. Surely this increase in flexibility makes up for the fact that they're only Ld10 instead of fearless. The only other real benefit I can see is that they're not susceptible to mind war picking off an icon (or if those fake 6th ed rules wind up being real, easily losing their icon to a variety of sources of direct hits), or PBSs, but this can sort of be worked around.

Obviously as points go down to 210, the berzerkers get better as the cost of upgrades favors units that get their bonuses built into the models themselves, and as points go up towards 310, the advantage goes to the MoK squad as their icon stretches farther, and the lower cost per model means you get another extra couple of dudes.

So what do you guys think? I'm kind of tempted to build my next couple of troops choices as MoK squads rather than even more berzerkers, as, per point, they seem to be about the same in close combat, except with the option for shooting.

If you take 11 CSM, you are also footslogging by default. So there's that to consider under durability.

They are comparable, but not really better per say.

I think they perform a strong role in khorne lists, being a troop choice that still punches on but can actually do something useful in the shooting phase. Keeps with the theme well, and adds flexibility. If you have a dreadnought on the field, then you're going to be happier sending the CSM at it instead of the 'zerkers. The CSM are much more likely to blow a landraider than a S9 fist. Given plasma guns, those CSM can take wounds off an MC before it gets bumrushed by S5 bezerkers. Definitely my favorite of the icon'd CSM, I think of all the icons for the gods you get the most out of Khorne on CSM.

Dok wrote:If you take 11 CSM, you are also footslogging by default. So there's that to consider under durability.

okay, ignore that specific metric. That was just there to make per-points calculations easy.

Of course, if you want to compare berzerkers in a rhino to footsloggers, you can do that as well (where the MoK marines get +3 models to the berzerker's flimsy box), but comparing foot to mech isn't the main thrust here.

Although since CSM only have the Landraider as an assault vehicle, setting up assaults with mech'd 'zerkers can take a bit of practice... Meched khorne CSM don't have this problem, and are much happier in rhinos than bezerkers are.

I think one thing you are missing is that..while yes each of there upgrades by themselfs only up there killing power by a little bit but once you add them ALL together it comes out to be a lot better.

Wounding an MEQ on 3's...while also hitting on 3's and attacking first is a lot better then just +1 attack.

The marines with MOK are much more well rounded for sure..but hands down the zerkers are better in the role they are ment for.

Plus they can threaten higher T models as well as charge armor for a much better effect.

I have always used them and loved their versatility. They don't need another element of your army to act as tank buster since they can carry their own melta, this has always freed up the rest of my army to do more in a game. I prefer MoK CSM to Zerks and MoN CSM to Plauges, but that is another story. So, to answer the OP question I would say that Berzerkers are easier in that they excel at one thing where CSM are hard in that you need to use them well to get the most out of them.

Jihallah wrote:Although since CSM only have the Landraider as an assault vehicle, setting up assaults with mech'd 'zerkers can take a bit of practice... Meched khorne CSM don't have this problem, and are much happier in rhinos than bezerkers are.

Sure, if I were running a land raider army, I'd certainly pack the raiders with berzerkers, as the two seems practically made for each other, especially given the klunkiness of rhinos as you note.

A Matter of Pride wrote:I think one thing you are missing is that..while yes each of there upgrades by themselfs only up there killing power by a little bit but once you add them ALL together it comes out to be a lot better.

Wounding an MEQ on 3's...while also hitting on 3's and attacking first is a lot better then just +1 attack.

...

... I did.

If you look at the math, the hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's is weighed against shooting bolters and meltaguns before close combat. Even then, the berzerkers don't really win out. Once you take berzerkers into less ideal situations (can't use pistols for fear of killing out of assault range), the killing power dips below the CSM, and in much less ideal circumstances (they don't get the charge), berzerkers just become MoK marines anyways, except with +1WS, but a third more expensive and without shooting options (which means their killing power is definitely worse).

A Matter of Pride wrote:Plus they can threaten higher T models as well as charge armor for a much better effect.

Well, if by that you mean that they can threaten wraithlord on the charge, then yes, they can wound higher tougness models. Otherwise, it's just the same bonus carried as usual. Plus, the +S only works on the charge. In either case, most of the high-toughness killing would be handled by the champ with the hidden fist.

I won't lie, S9 powerfist attacks on the charge are hella sexy, but in the end it's not really THAT much of an improvement, is it?

Jihallah wrote:Definitely my favorite of the icon'd CSM, I think of all the icons for the gods you get the most out of Khorne on CSM.

It's funny because nurgle and tzeentch gain a LOT by upgrading to god warriors. Gaining an astounding 4+ invul save with Ap3 bolters and Feel no frikkin pain are HUGE upgrades compared to their icon'd alternatives (though I could still see the uses of marked CSM in single-god lists of those types). Meanwhile furious charge is nice, but it's not great, and slaanesh's ability of taking storm-bolteresque weapons is pathetic. I mean, if berzerkers got 3 points more expensive per model but gained fleet, we'd be talking about a real difference here (in which case, the upgrade from MoK to 'zerks would mimic the difference between MoN and PM's), but as it is...

BladeWalker wrote:So, to answer the OP question I would say that Berzerkers are easier in that they excel at one thing where CSM are hard in that you need to use them well to get the most out of them.

Are they though? Both MoK and berzerkers are at their best when they charge into close combat. Berzerkers may be a little better at it, but MoK have the option of abstaining at the last minute if things look dicey.

A Matter of Pride wrote:I think one thing you are missing is that..while yes each of there upgrades by themselfs only up there killing power by a little bit but once you add them ALL together it comes out to be a lot better.

Wounding an MEQ on 3's...while also hitting on 3's and attacking first is a lot better then just +1 attack.

The marines with MOK are much more well rounded for sure..but hands down the zerkers are better in the role they are ment for.

well...

Ailaros wrote:
I mean, run it through three quick scenarios. Assume that the CSM fire once to 24" and then again at double-tap 12", and then eat the charge, while the berzerkers shoot their pistols and then charge. Against KFF ork boyz, the MoK kill 13 before the boyz get to swing, while the berzerkers get 15. Against Tac marines, the MoK kill 7 before the powerfist gets activated to the berzerker's 7. Against THSS termies, the MoK kill 3 before the first hammer blow to the berzerker's 3. I mean, in either case, we're seeing them do about the same amount of damage, and this is in absolutely ideal circumstances for the berzerkers.

In the real world, the berzerkers aren't always getting the charge (especially against ork boyz), and without the charge, they lose nearly all of their extra killing power. Plus, the berzerkers are BEHOLDEN to charge, having no other capabilities, while the CSM can always double tap those banshees or wyches, or shoot melta at that dreadnought.

Want to post the math working on that Ailaros? Also, as a small note- this is ideal circumstances for 'zerkers (not shot running in, get to shoot pistols with full squad in range and then charge, assuming everyones in CC range etc...).
So yes, A Matter of Pride, the 'zerkers will do more damage in CC. But if you factor in the CSM's shooting ability that happens before CC, it looks pretty good for those CSM.

Ailaros wrote:
I won't lie, S9 powerfist attacks on the charge are hella sexy, but in the end it's not really THAT much of an improvement, is it?

It is in Apoc and against dreads, thats about it...

Ailaros wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:So, to answer the OP question I would say that Berzerkers are easier in that they excel at one thing where CSM are hard in that you need to use them well to get the most out of them.

Are they though? Both MoK and berzerkers are at their best when they charge into close combat. Berzerkers may be a little better at it, but MoK have the option of abstaining at the last minute if things look dicey.

Maybe it says something on how I play/write lists, but I'd say the CSM are easier. Flexibility vs "Im going to charge you with this unit and thats all I can do with it!", I find the former more useful in a TAC sense than just CC machines.

The CSM have melta guns to open metal boxes. If a transport is moving 7+ the pfist is also not going to work as a can opener, and plasma pistols just don't cut it as a can opener.

Enhanced marines with MoK cost just as much as zerkers, are also fearless, can carry 2 melta guns, and are at least natural S5 which means their power fist champ is S10.

I'd say the MoK CSM really come into their own when you bring Fabius Bile into the equation; at that point, the differences between the 2 are pretty minor.

Without Bile, though, I'd say you can't really compare them, as, honestly, 1 is a pretty dedicated assault unit with little shooting potential, and the other is basically the opposite.

My 2 cents on the matter.

But then you are bringing fabius bile into the equation... and wasting a hq slot in order to buff some marines to the almost equivalent of a unit you can take without him. I think both units are fairly good. I was doing some math on this the other day and CSM with MoK are almost as good as grey hunters. The cost is slightly higher with a fully kitted out squad, but killing potential is pretty similar.

schadenfreude wrote:The CSM have melta guns to open metal boxes. If a transport is moving 7+ the pfist is also not going to work as a can opener, and plasma pistols just don't cut it as a can opener.

Meh, I'm not terribly concerned either way with bawkses. CSM have lots of krak grenades and 4 S8 attacks on the charge, while KB's have the same krak or a LOT of S5 attakcs with 4 S9 on the charge. Either of them could handle rhinos and chimeras without melta.

The melta is more for talking about land raiders and, more importantly dreadnoughts and the like.

Dok wrote:But then you are bringing fabius bile into the equation... and wasting a hq slot in order to buff some marines to the almost equivalent of a unit you can take without him.

Yeah, I'm really not impressed by bile. Armywide, he's 160 points more expensive, all for allowing you to field khorne berzkerkers that get a S10 fist, and have slightly better killing power after the charge, but also have a 1/3ds chance to have a bunch of your own guys killed. Berzerkers come few enough without talking about a bunch of them taking armor saves or leaking a member a turn (that 8-man squad could be down to just 1 model by the end of the game without ever having an attack directed at them).

Yes, you can give them bile AND a MoK for 5 attacks on the charge, rather than 4, but I bet they're still, at best, a wash against regular marines, without the risk of losing your own stuff so badly.

Jihallah wrote:Want to post the math working on that Ailaros?

Sure. I was being a little sloppy before (I mean, my conclusion was "roughly the same"). The exact math...

30 sluggas, nob with klaw.

CSM single tap 9 shots for 1.99.
CSM double-tap 18 shots for 3.99. 2x melta for .75
CSM attack before the ork. 27 attacks yields 5.7 (12.5 dead boyz)
18 sluggas put down 4 marines, the klaw takes down 1.7.
CSM powerfist takes down .8

16-17 boyz left after the first round, 7 CSM left.

KB's run forward
30 sluggas shoot with pistols, killing 1.6
9 KB's shoot pistols for 1.99 boyz dead
8 KB's charge (you can tell by this and the previous lines how dubious this is) for 12 boyz dead.
16 boyz attack back for 2.6 KB's dead.
Klaw kills 1.2, fist kills 2.2

14 boyz left after the first round, 4-5 KB's left

As you can see, the KB's do a little more damage while taking a little more damage (klaws hurt smaller squads more). It's roughly a wash, and this is assuming that the KB's are getting in the charge against slugga boyz (and that they get to shoot pistols without killing themselves out of assault range to boot).


10-man tac squad (with fist , in cover)

CSM run forward
SM single tap for 1.1 CSM killed
CSM run forward
SM move forward, double tap for 2.2 CSM killed
6 CSM shoot pistols, killing .66, meltas kill .56, CSM charge
7 CSM attack, killing 2.3
8 SM attack killing .74
CSM fist kills 1.7
SM fist kills .84

CSM have 7 left after the first round of combat to the SM's 5 left

KB run forward
SM single tap for 1.1 KB killed
KB run forward
SM move forward, double tap for 2.2 KB killed
7 KB fire pistols, killing .77. KB charge
6 KB attack, killing 3.5
5 SM attack, killing .41
CSM fist kills 2.2
SM fist kills .84

KB have 6 left after the first round to the SM's 4 left.

Pretty much a wash.


5-man TH/SS termie squad

CSM touble-tap for 1.3, meltas add .37. Termies charge.
10 CSM attack for 1.25
2 termies throw down the hammer for 2.5 dead CSM
Fist downs .55

The CSM have 8-9 left to the termies 1-2.

10 KB's fire pistols for .55 dead. KB charge.
9 KB attack for 2.6 termies dead.
2 termies kill 1.6
fist downs .55

The KB have 8-9 left to the termies 1.

Once again, it's about the same.

Ailaros wrote:
Sure. I was being a little sloppy before (I mean, my conclusion was "roughly the same"). The exact math...

30 sluggas, nob with klaw.

CSM single tap 9 shots for 1.99.
CSM double-tap 18 shots for 3.99. 2x melta for .75
CSM attack before the ork. 27 attacks yields 5.7 (12.5 dead boyz)
18 sluggas put down 4 marines, the klaw takes down 1.7.
CSM powerfist takes down .8

16-17 boyz left after the first round, 7 CSM left.

KB's run forward
30 sluggas shoot with pistols, killing 1.6
9 KB's shoot pistols for 1.99 boyz dead
8 KB's charge (you can tell by this and the previous lines how dubious this is) for 12 boyz dead.
16 boyz attack back for 2.6 KB's dead.
Klaw kills 1.2, fist kills 2.2

14 boyz left after the first round, 4-5 KB's left

As you can see, the KB's do a little more damage while taking a little more damage (klaws hurt smaller squads more). It's roughly a wash, and this is assuming that the KB's are getting in the charge against slugga boyz (and that they get to shoot pistols without killing themselves out of assault range to boot).

Why are the sluggas getting to shoot against the Berzerkers, but not the CSM? If they're within pistol range on their turn, they should be charging; if they're not, they won't get to shoot. Right?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Why are the sluggas getting to shoot against the Berzerkers, but not the CSM? If they're within pistol range on their turn, they should be charging; if they're not, they won't get to shoot. Right?

I had to come up with some bizzare scenario in which the berzerkers would be able to get a charge in on the boyz.

In the case of the regular CSM, the ork boyz move and then run, and on their second turn they move, fleet, and charge (thus no pistols). In the case of the berzerkers, I assumed that, for some very bizzare reason, it was a face-off and the ork was within 12" and couldn't charge. They would then fire their pistols off instead. Take the pistol kill out, if you want, the conclusion is still the same.

Ailaros wrote:Sure. I was being a little sloppy before (I mean, my conclusion was "roughly the same"). The exact math...

Your models are really weird. If you just use Rhinos like a sane person, you'd get the charge without having to take pistol shots.

Besides, the point of Berserkers isn't how well they kill rabble. They really shine when assaulting other dedicated assault units, smashing them on a point-for-point basis. Your CSM require both shooting and close combat to get numbers even close. Who is going to charge 11 CSM with half a horde of boyz? In that case your CSM are missing a whole bunch of kills.

In terms of MSU, berzerkers are better.

When using large squads, and playing chaos on foot, CSM with MOK are better. They can also take special weapons, which gives them a versatile edge.

But if you add fabius, it gets crazy. In larger battles, huge squads of str 5 or str 6 fearless units will cause fear in anything on the field, including vehciles, and add two melta guns, and a power fist, CSM fear nothing.

Yet if you want to run the meta rhino spam crap, go ahead, use berzerkers. Real servants of chaos use style, fabulous style when using mass troops.

Also, the CSM plan requires the enemy to assault the squad instead of just shooting them from afar. The Berzerkers do not leave them that option.

DarkHound wrote:If you just use Rhinos like a sane person, you'd get the charge without having to take pistol shots.

Lootas. Plus other stuff. Ork models may be BS2, but that doesn't mean they can't kill rhinos.

I mean, if we look at the far more common scenario of sluggas waaughing the berzerkers, it drops from "16-17 boyz left after the first round, 7 CSM left. 14 boyz left after the first round, 4-5 KB's left" down to "16-17 boyz left after the first round, 7 CSM left. 21 boyz left after the first round, 1 KB left."

In this more realistic scenario, the khorne berzerkers do MUCH worse than the boyz, as being able to throw down boltgun shots on a unit that doesn't need the charge to be special is way better than a unit with fewer dudes, who don't get to shoot with bolters, who aren't special when they don't have the charge.

DarkHound wrote:They really shine when assaulting other dedicated assault units, smashing them on a point-for-point basis.

Sure. How are MoK CSM doing this much worse?

DarkHound wrote:Your CSM require both shooting and close combat to get numbers even close.

They really only need a double-tap most of the time. Double-tapping and then eating a charge against a unit that wants to get into close combat isn't very difficult to set up. Plus, if you don't use the bolters, you've still got the same number of attacks per model on the pistols+charge. You don't get +1WS or +1S, but you do get +1 dude and the ability to shoot meltaguns first.

MoK marines aren't THAT much worse than berzerkers when you're just looking at charging only with no weapons fire whatsoever. Meanwhile, the MoK have the shooting option.

DarkHound wrote:Who is going to charge 11 CSM with half a horde of boyz? In that case your CSM are missing a whole bunch of kills.

What do you mean by this?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Also, the CSM plan requires the enemy to assault the squad instead of just shooting them from afar. The Berzerkers do not leave them that option.

What?

If I'm facing up against a squad that wants to shoot, rather than mix it up, then with EITHER squad I'd just rush in as fast as I could. Just because CSM have bolters doesn't mean they HAVE to use them, rather than running forward to assault.

Ailaros wrote:They really only need a double-tap most of the time. Double-tapping and then eating a charge against a unit that wants to get into close combat isn't very difficult to set up.

My last sentence was supposed to preemptively address this kink, but I rushed out the door before making it coherent. The problem with the CSM double tapping is that your opponent gets a chance to adjust the situation before your CSM can finish doing their damage.

For instance, in your model the CSM double tap the Terminators, then an entire turn passes. During that turn, your opponent gets to change the equation. If he reduces the squad to 6 models, 3 Terminators will be able to engage it and break it.

When Khorne Berserkers get into close combat the equation is set. They do all their damage before the opponent can react.

Now there are obviously things your opponent can do to keep Khorne Berserkers from setting up, but that's moot: the same can be said for CSM. The CSM are unique in the fact that they are vulnerable before completing their damage.

I don't like opening boxes in cc, the result is often bad.

Chimera with demo vets 10" from zerkers. Sure the zerkers can wreck the box in cc, but at a 10" range they won't block the access hatch and will likely eat 3 melta/plasma shots + a demo charge while clustered and out of cover.

10 assault marines in a rhino 10" from the zerkers. A priest in another vehicle is within 22" of the rhino. If the box is opened in cc the zerkers will get charged and the ba will have fc+fnp from a mechanized priest not in cc

Zerkers have their uses, but imo csm lists with >50% of their troops being zerkers don't have enough anti mech.

Oh, definitely. 2 CSM for every Berserker is my ratio. Well, it would be if I used either.

DarkHound wrote:The problem with the CSM double tapping is that your opponent gets a chance to adjust the situation before your CSM can finish doing their damage.

For instance, in your model the CSM double tap the Terminators, then an entire turn passes. During that turn, your opponent gets to change the equation.

Oh, I get you now.

I suppose if it were a mirror match, I would get into close range and then think "I could double tap him and let him charge, unless he knows I'm going to double tap and then he double taps and lets me charge, unless I know he knows I'm going to double tap..." Which quickly devolves into:




followed eventually by




I guess at some point, you just need to assess the situation and pick between options. Decisiveness is the grease in the machinery of versatility.

Plus, to be fair, your opponent can react to berzerkers as well. On the one hand, they KNOW that the berzerkers are going to charge, and can react to the one conceivable reality, while on the other hand, they have to keep a bolter feint in the back of their mind with the CSM, spoiling their plans. Plus, while it is easier to react to short-range shooting, it's not like it's impossible to react to close combat. I've sent in units to bail out other units already stuck in close combat many a time.

schadenfreude wrote:I don't like opening boxes in cc, the result is often bad.

Yeah, but it's not much better with the CSM. Yes, they get to melta, but the odds that they're both close enough to melta AND close enough to pass a difficult terrain test and make it into close combat with the squad inside is pretty rare in my experience. Plus, in the case of a parking lot assault lets you multicharge, while you're only cracking one box at a time with melta.

In either case, I'd assume that this is out of scope of either unit in question. In both of these, you'd actually have oblits or havocs or something that's breaking open the boxes so that you don't have to. Even in a list whose only troops choice was berzerkers.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, to be fair, your opponent can react to berzerkers as well. On the one hand, they KNOW that the berzerkers are going to charge, and can react to the one conceivable reality, while on the other hand, they have to keep a bolter feint in the back of their mind with the CSM, spoiling their plans. Plus, while it is easier to react to short-range shooting, it's not like it's impossible to react to close combat. I've sent in units to bail out other units already stuck in close combat many a time.

My point is that Berserkers will deal the damage you showed in your math, while the CSM will deal the damage shown in the shooting or in close combat, but never both.

Yes, but I can always opt to use the CSM as if they were berzerkers. In that case, I lose the double-tap and gain a round of pistols and an extra attack. Berzerkers aren't THAT much better than MoK CSM in most circumstances, even when they're both just charging.

That's kind of my over all point. Berzerkers are only slightly better for their points in close combat, while the MoK marines sacrifice a little bit of a still considerable chopping power for the ability to present options in the shooting phase.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but I can always opt to use the CSM as if they were berzerkers. In that case, I lose the double-tap and gain a round of pistols and an extra attack. Berzerkers aren't THAT much better than MoK CSM in most circumstances, even when they're both just charging.

Against Assault Terminators, the CSM win after 4 rounds of combat and suffer 4 or 5 casualties. The Berserkers win on the second round with less than half as many casualties. Adding pistols doesn't change the result much.

That's a pretty big difference.

Agreed. Given the more common situations/opponents faced on the table, and with the usual need for transports taken into account, Berserkers get better by comparison.

That being said, I agree that MoK CSMs are pretty darn good, though you do want to be taking the full 10 models.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:The problem with the CSM double tapping is that your opponent gets a chance to adjust the situation before your CSM can finish doing their damage.

For instance, in your model the CSM double tap the Terminators, then an entire turn passes. During that turn, your opponent gets to change the equation.

Oh, I get you now.

I suppose if it were a mirror match, I would get into close range and then think "I could double tap him and let him charge, unless he knows I'm going to double tap and then he double taps and lets me charge, unless I know he knows I'm going to double tap..." Which quickly devolves into...

Not really, it's a valid point. Pistoling/melting and charging might be a better option for the CSM.

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:I don't like opening boxes in cc, the result is often bad.

Yeah, but it's not much better with the CSM. Yes, they get to melta, but the odds that they're both close enough to melta AND close enough to pass a difficult terrain test and make it into close combat with the squad inside is pretty rare in my experience. Plus, in the case of a parking lot assault lets you multicharge, while you're only cracking one box at a time with melta.

In either case, I'd assume that this is out of scope of either unit in question. In both of these, you'd actually have oblits or havocs or something that's breaking open the boxes so that you don't have to. Even in a list whose only troops choice was berzerkers.

I think this is and important role for the MoK CSM. Whilst you might have havocs/oblits etc for hitting vehicles at range, the CSM are good for dealing with threats that were/are out of LoS, reserve units like derp pod dreads, and in general are more reliable at killing vehicles that do make it in the midfield, due the ye olde rhino slingshot or even just as a melta bunker- using mobility to get around a vehicles cover/get into close range for meltaguns. Last time I did a khorne list I used CSM's as melta bunkers to crack transports that survived for the 'zerkers to charge/ward off walkers.

DarkHound wrote:Against Assault Terminators, the CSM win after 4 rounds of combat and suffer 4 or 5 casualties. The Berserkers win on the second round with less than half as many casualties.

?

CSM shoot 9 pistols for .5 and 2x melta for another .4. Then they charge in with 30 attacks that put down 1.25 and the fist follows up with .55. Most times, that's 3 dead termies on the charge, which in return put down 1.6-2.5. The next turn (assuming two CSM killed), the CSM put down 1, with the fist putting down .4, to only 1 more CSM killed. With berzerkers, you're pistoling .5 and then killing 2.6 with chainswords and .55 with the fist. Half the time, you're winning close combat in the same number of turns, and leaving with the same number of models, and that's with using the CSM exactly the same as KB's.

The question is if that half chance of ending on the wrong turn (which is plenty fixable with support from the rest of your army) is worth it to lose the ability to shoot?

DarkHound wrote:That's a pretty big difference.

Not nearly as big of a difference as what happens to KB's most of the time they fight sluggas without the ability to thin them with bolters first, or when fighting against banshees which the berzerkers basically need to get into a power weapon tango with while the CSM can blow them off the board with bolters. Or wyches, or a bunch of stuff that's also really good in close combat. I mean, the difference between a CSM squad meltagunning a blood talon dread and a berzerker squad rushing in to punch it out with a S9 powerfist is pretty pronounced.

Jihallah wrote:CSM are good for dealing with threats that were/are out of LoS, reserve units like derp pod dreads, and in general are more reliable at killing vehicles that do make it in the midfield

Right, I don't expect the CSM to use meltas all that often, but when they do, like against land raiders or suddenly dreadnoughts, or whatever, I feel like I'd be glad I had them.

Plus, push comes to shove, you can still shoot melta and then S8 powerfist stuff.

Ailaros wrote:CSM shoot 9 pistols for .5 and 2x melta for another .4...

Ah, I see, an extra CSM fudges the rounding on a couple results. 10 CSM gets .8 from shooting, 1.5 from attacks, which puts them up at 2. The 3 Terminators return with 2.5, and the Powerfist might kill another one. The Berserker pistol .56, kill 2.6 with attacks, and .7 with the Powerfist. Unlike the CSM, it's almost certain they'll kill 4 on the charge, and they'll retain the numbers to finish the last one off. If you fall on the wrong side of that 50% Powerfist, the CSM get bogged down pretty quickly. Even if they don't, you still lose an extra 2 Marines over the Berserkers.

Ailaros wrote:Not nearly as big of a difference as what happens to KB's most of the time they fight sluggas without the ability to thin them with bolters first, or when fighting against banshees which the berzerkers basically need to get into a power weapon tango with while the CSM can blow them off the board with bolters. Or wyches, or a bunch of stuff that's also really good in close combat. I mean, the difference between a CSM squad meltagunning a blood talon dread and a berzerker squad rushing in to punch it out with a S9 powerfist is pretty pronounced.

The ability to thin out squads with your bolters is irrelevant towards this total damage calculation because your opponent gets to change the state. You can't guarantee anything.

Berserkers do exceptionally well against Sluggas: they trade 3 Berserkers for 27 Sluggas (3 from pistols, 15 from attacks, 9 from combat resolution), then finish them off on the following turn. Under the same conditions, 10 CSM kill a grand total of 17 (4 from shooting, 9 from attacks, 4 from resolution) at the cost of 4. The following round they kill 5 but lose 3, and are finished off in the next round of combat.

Let's see, 10 Banshees with an Executioner and Doom. Zerkers kill 2 from pistols, Banshees kill 5 Zerkers, but lose 6.6 models in return. At Ld7, they've got a 40% chance to break. If they don't, they'll claim another Berserker before being slain. The Berserkers kill 50% more than they lose in points. That's not so bad.

I don't want to build a model for combat drugs. Now the difference between a CSM Meltagunning a Dreadnought and a Berzerker squad punching it is the difference between a saw and a hammer.