Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Agreed with darkhound!

DarkHound wrote:That's a tremendous understatement, and I'm getting bored of pointing that out. CSM would do half as much damage and flee from combat, giving him a free D6 move. You'll begin to notice a trend when comparing the CSM to Deathstars. Berserkers are just dumb enough to stick around and hit them with their Powerfist again.

If you want something really useful in close combat, take Berserkers or Possessed. IoK increases the CSM's price by 15%, but doesn't make them better against anything useful.

I don't fully agree with this statement. While their point cost isn't as good as grey hunters, they put out just as many attacks as grey hunters when they get charged. On the charge they put out more attacks than grey hunters. I don't think everyone's consensus is that grey hunters suck in hth against anything useful.

They aren't a dedicated close combat unit. They're a moderately good close combat unit with the normal shooting capactiy of most 10 man marine squads. Even blood angel assault marines have fewer attacks...but we don't decry them for sucking against grey knights.

I think it's a mistake to grade them specifically in a hth vacuum. Yes, they are only good in hth against specific units...but that's true of pretty much every single troop choice in 40k except for genestealers and daemonettes (and arguably grey knights).

You know ahead of time what units are going to sweeping advance MoK marines. They're still good shooty marines. They're definitely strong assaulty marines. They're more than a match for any unit straight up that doesn't have a higher initiative than they do. I'm sorry, but 36 marine attacks on the charge don't suck, especially if you can shoot 3 special weapons before charging.

Edit: someone said that Blood angel assault marines beat them in hth. That's not true. With a chaplain yes. Straight up, 1 on 1, no. The blood angels do a little more on the charge because of furious charge, but that's more than made up by the +1 attack of khorne marines and the extra power fist attack from the sergeant. If you lose combat, you'll probably at worse lose only by 1 or 2, at best you'll win the combat. Depends on how you both roll your fist attacks. After that first round and charge bonuses are gone, the khorne marines are statistically superior, even of down by 1 or 2 bodies.

Edit 2: I forgot another point: Everyone tends to compare them face up. However, 36 attacks usually means you get at least a wound or two on the enemy's sergeant. In some cases, that doesn't matter. In some cases, like against tactical marines, being able to knock out that fist before it gets to go is devestating.

Against WS4 T4 3+s, the Icon of Khorne scores an extra kill on the charge (a bonus of .7 from attacks and .4 from the Powerfist). Even if the Powerfist rounds up, getting you an additional two kills, it doesn't recoup the cost of the Icon. The additional kills also don't reduce the damage your opponent will return. They're already a moderately good close combat unit. Icon of Khorne doesn't make them better at that.

Against Blood Angels, who will get the charge due to their jump packs, CSM get wrecked. The Initiative Bonus from Furious Charge means 3 Marines bite the dust before attacking. The Icon of Khorne lets the remaining CSM deal .5 extra wounds.

And to your other point: 36 attacks only put 9 wounds on the target, so he doesn't have to allocate to the Sarge.

Scudd are you checking any of these numbers or are you just guessing?

Grey Hunters are also immune to being swept, and can regroup when beaten. Big difference between CSM's lack of regroup-ability and vulerability to sweeping advance.

With the way you want to use your CSM's, I can't help but think that plague marines would do the job so much better.

FNP, fearless, T5, defensive grenades, faster access to special weapons for +5 pts.

They are much more survivable to enemy shooting, and they are much better at taking the charge. The CSM have better damage output in cc, but probably not by much if the combat goes on for longer as you factor in the survivability of the plague marines.

DarkHound wrote:That's a tremendous understatement, and I'm getting bored of pointing that out.

You keep saying it, but you're not explaining it. You're just repeating the same statements over and over again, as if sheer weight of words will make your position more clear.

Illumini wrote:With the way you want to use your CSM's, I can't help but think that plague marines would do the job so much better.

FNP, fearless, T5, defensive grenades, faster access to special weapons for +5 pts.

PMs are good in general, I agree, but out of MSU-spam, I'm not completely sold. PM's are three times more durable against lasguns, but they're just as durable against plasma guns and power fists or any of a host of good weapons, except they're more expensive.

Illumini wrote:They are much more survivable to enemy shooting, and they are much better at taking the charge. The CSM have better damage output in cc, but probably not by much if the combat goes on for longer as you factor in the survivability of the plague marines.

...which is kind of getting at something I've been pointing to. Nurgle forces have a very different play style. They have very low damage output for their points, but they're tough to kill, making them an attrition army, like guard blobs. Khorne forces, on the other hand, play in a very differnet style. It doesn't matter that they're a third as durable, because they're three times killier. They may not do well in a long, drawn-out slugfest, but they're never going to get into that kind of a fight - they just kill stuff too fast for that to happen. For example, nurgle fights slugga boyz by taking the charge and then simply outlasting them after 5 player turns of hand to hand fighting. Khorne can't last for 5 turns of fighting, but that's okay, because they ork player is going to run out of boyz after just 2.

This actually sort of counts for offensive power in general as well. PM's may take a third the damage in the shooting phase, but the khorne forces will do three times the damage when they arrive, so it evens out. Considering nurgle and khorne units to be roughly equal, then, it's more of a matter of play style, in which I, personally, prefer khorne, as I already have an attrition army in imperial guard, and so have less desire for another.

Anyways, so I think I'm starting to get a feel for what the moral of the story is here. Berzerkers are slightly better against units that MoK CSM are already good against, and slightly less worse against units that MoK CSM are already losing to, assuming, of course, that you get the charge (outside of which MoK CSM are just plain better). In the end, though, there's nothing that a squad of berzerkers can do that a equivalent squad of MoK CSM can't, so there really isn't much of an advantage to taking berzerkers, while they suffer from not being able to shoot.

That being the rule, there are of course a few exceptions. The first is if you're running Mech MSU spam, wherein the limits of transport capability, and small sizes of squads in general gives some favor to units whose upgrades are built into the cost of the model. Of course, MoK CSM can also be made to work in this case but, even though the berzerkers may cost more, you can still only have 10 in a rhino, meaning you can put more points into a smaller footprint. Obviously this counts even more for land raiders with assault ramps which help the berzerkers realise the one circumstance in which they're actually better (that first round of combat with the charge).

The second main exception is the other time when you're pretty well guaranteed the charge - in a countercharge role. Of course, this is a little iffy as your opponent will be able to see this coming a mile away and take some amount of countermeasures (like killing the berzerkers at range), but that doesn't change the fact that they're a better "two" in a "one-two punch".

The final exception is when there really is no substitute for fearless. Fearless adds its own problems (taking no retreat saves against things that kick even berzerker's asses in close combat, like many of the CC deathstar units out there), but if you know you're going up against a guard player who really likes psyker battle squads, well... you play chaos, so have no psychic defense.

Outside of these exceptions, though, you're comparing a unit that is basically as good in close combat (also, it should be noted, actually pretty good in close combat) with the addition of the ability to do anything in the shooting phase. In order for the berzerkers to be worth it, you really need to guarantee the charge against slightly choice units. As your opponent has roughly as much control over if you get the charge or not as you do, this means that you've really got to support them and use them as a means of exploiting opportunities, rather than as a generic front-line unit that your opponent can do things to make sure you don't get a charge in on them with.

In a way, I'm actually starting to think of berzerkers as an FA option stuck in the troops section. They're just regular old space marines, unless you sneak them into somewhere where you get to fight exactly on your terms, in which case they just wreck face. If you can't be tricksy with them, though, they're just a more expensive form of your regular troops.

Are you planning on using the MoK CSM as poor man's Berzerkers, or just as Tacticals, that are slightly better in combat?

I hear you Ailaros however the Hound had made and backed some very valid points.

If you want all rounders that is one thing, however the force multiplier of the MoK appears to be a less effective use of points than buying the Zerkers from the arguments I have read in this thread.

Besides that who does NOT want to bring Zerkers. Even if your playing an opponent who is 100% rational only, and they are generally no fun to play, Zerkers will play with their head/strategy.

Finally, the best bit of any game is when you get to laugh like a maniac because you have unleashed something really nasty at the right moment. Your just not going to get the same crestfallen look from your opponent if its CSM, regardless of if they carry a flag.

odorofdeath wrote:Are you planning on using the MoK CSM as poor man's Berzerkers, or just as Tacticals, that are slightly better in combat?

Well, firstly I'd note that they're MUCH better than tac squads in close combat, and that they're really not much less expensive (and, depending on the circumstances, not much worse) than berzerkers.

What I'm thinking more is that when you want something that you reach for berzerkers for, that perhaps it's actually better to reach for some CSM with an icon instead. This whole thread has been me trying to parse out the details of this general idea (and to test how correct it is, of course).

Loricatus Aurora wrote:I hear you Ailaros however the Hound had made and backed some very valid points.

If you want all rounders that is one thing, however the force multiplier of the MoK appears to be a less effective use of points than buying the Zerkers from the arguments I have read in this thread.

Could you explain this more?

More often than not assault marines don't get the charge against my marines...because they have to pop the rhino first. Also, you once again compared them straight up in hth. Last I checked, bolters have 24" range and they can have a heavy and a special. If i go straight melta, it's 3 meltagun shots.

So that assault marine squad would be shot up before they got to charge.

They are neither a tactical squad nor an assaulty beat down like berserkers..

THey are one of the better rhino rush troop scoring units in the game. They aren't grey hunters good, but they're good.

Furious charge only happens on the charge and they have less attacks. Don't make it something it isn't.

If we use the average method (which is wrong, but whatever, should find standard deviation)
25 (/2) hits (* 2/3) wounds /3 fail saves = 2.77. Meltaguns don't get their cc weapon.

6 chaos marines 18 (/2 hits) (/2 wounds) (/3) armor saves = 1.5 dead.

Fists: 2.77 + (3 (/2 hits) * (5/6) wounds = 4.02

vs

1.5 + (3 /2 hits) * (5/6 wounds) = 2.75

How are assault marines decisvely better again?

So I lose by one, maybe 2 at the worse, just like I said, and I test on 9 or 8.

2nd round:

assuming you pull the meltaguns, 6 + sgt left. so 12 attacks plus 2 fist attacks
For chaos, there is 5 + sgt left. 15 attacks left, plus 3 fist attacks.
And I didn't factor in shooting, and the assault marines got the charge, so this was best case for the assault marines.

Yeah, I don't think the khorne marines lose this battle at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like plague marines, but they're so expensive and they die to plasma like any normal chaos marine. They're also mediocre in hth. They are tough as nails though.

Khorne marines are versatile, decently shooty, and surprise people because I rhino rush them as a shooty marine army. I get out, rapid fire, or sit on objectives and shoot the hell out of things, (like any marine army) then I dare people to charge them. Unlike tacticals, they win more often than not.

I only charge forward like a manic if it's something like guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

odorofdeath wrote:Grey Hunters are also immune to being swept, and can regroup when beaten. Big difference between CSM's lack of regroup-ability and vulerability to sweeping advance.

This isn't accurate either. Grey hunters are leadership 8, and they fail pinning more often (which happens more often than sweeping advance) (a lot more, they fail 30% of the time or so)
Straight leadership isn't bad if you're a hth unit, because if you pass your leadership test you aren't taking extra wounds.

It's not as easy to sweeping advance khorne marines as people think...and usually when they get swept, they would lose that combat badly anyways. (Like against a trygon).
Usually in that case I pull the sergeant and try to gurantee I get swept so I can shoot again...but I guess only tau use that tactic right?

I think of the difference between Berzerkers and Khorne CSM as being somewhat similar to the difference between Slugga and Shoota Boyz.

Sluggas are somewhat better than Shootas in assault, like Berzerkers are better than Khorne CSM. For the Boyz, that's because they get one fewer attack per model; for the Berzerkers, that's because they have FC and WS5. The Berzerker bonus is more powerful but only lasts one turn, so I'd say this is a reasonable (though not perfect) comparison. The Shootas are more flexible in non-assault situations while still being pretty decent in assault, like Khorne CSM are. This is the iffier end of the comparison; Shoota Boyz actually have better basic weapons, while Khorne CSM can take melta or plasma.

There is, however, one important difference; Shootas and Sluggas are both specialized units. Specifically, they are specialized anti-infantry assault units. Shootas do some of their damage by softening up the target before the assault, while Sluggas have to do very nearly all of their damage in assault itself, but they are both fulfilling exactly the same role. The only real difference is the specific method by which they kill their target; in all other ways they're identical. That's why Shoota Boyz are so much more common; both units have the same survivability and very nearly the same actual damage output, so the unit which can start doing damage faster has an advantage.

When comparing Berzerkers to Khorne CSM, however, you are comparing a specialized anti-infantry assault unit to a generalist 'core' unit. The only reason, really, to take Khorne CSM over Berzerkers is to use their flexibility by giving them special weapons, which means that you plan to use them in an anti-mech or anti-TEQ role with their melta or plasma, and the assault power is basically a bonus. Taking Berzerkers, on the other hand, means that you want assault power and nothing but; this is a unit that you will use to charge enemy light or medium infantry and kill it, that's all. But Berzerkers actually have an edge in both survivability in CC and total damage output.

This advantage is magnified by the fact that practically all dedicated assault units have a charge range which exceeds rapid-fire range; Any Ork unit on the Waaagh, anything out of a Land Raider, any DE or Eldar assault unit, most Daemon assault units. . . practically anything that WANTS to charge you will charge you from outside of double-tap range practically all of the time. The CSM cannot leverage the advantage of their bolters to score more kills before the fight starts, and the Berzerkers will kill their enemy faster because they will usually hit more often due to WS5. Berzerkers are the superior unit when being charged, because their power is concentrated in such a way that it can be brought to bear.

If you flip the comparison around and assume that you are GETTING the charge, Berzerkers come off even better. Charge a squad of, for instance, Grey Hunters with 10 Berzerkers and, on average, you'll expect 5-6 kills before they get to swing, meaning they'll only kill 1 Berzerker and then lose combat by a significant margin with everything that entails. Charge that same unit with 11 Khorne CSM and you'll score 3-4 kills simultaneous with the enemy's attacks, while losing 2-3 models yourself; even if you win combat, if won't be by much. Berzerkers, by hitting more often, end the combat faster and take fewer casualties; a single squad of Berzerkers can, with luck, run through 2-3 units consecutively before they are too damaged to survive another assault. Khorne CSM will be crippled after only one or two, but to compensate, they don't need to get into combat in the first place to be useful.

My viewpoint, basically, is that if you're planning on running an assault-centric army then the small cumulative advantages which Berzerkers have make them worthwhile; +1 WS and FC are not individually all that important, but when taken together they increase the power of the unit in assault by ~50%, which can be quite important indeed. If you're not going to be playing a game which really revolves around assault, on the other hand, your CSM (already more competent than many basic troops in CC) don't really need the MoK anyway, and you can probably use those points on something that's more valuable to your style of play.

The cost of the mark decreases according to the number of troops you are going to put in the squad. A berzerker - is going to look worse the larger your squad size as opposed to a MoK (truthfully any Mark) where the size of the unit is going to be more appealing the larger the squad size.

Go with minimum squads and the opposite is going to be true - the dedicated trooper is going to be more efficient than the icon bearing CSM.

Now the meched up environment that is 5th Ed, means squad size beyond 10 is foolishness other than maybe apocalypse games as you want to keep it transportable.

The only tradeoff at 10 man squads is 2 specials or 1 special and 1 heavy versus 2 plasma pistols AND having the higher WS and +1 S and +1 I of berzerkers versus the firepower of bolters with 24" range.

If you want a dedicated CC troop you would be foolish to select MoK over berzerkers but if you want the flexible approach with say the ability to down a landraider perhaps the MoK CSM with 2 meltas may fit your needs better.

Well, like in boxing, style makes fights,
and I think people's impression of khorne is hth based.

I pretty much agree with the last two posts..I just don't think in today's mech environment that you can win with an army purely dedicated to hth.

And I like berserkers, but they only really win against other basic MEQ.

I remember one particular game where a player charged some genestealers with berserkers and got wiped out.
I pointed out that he could have sat in cover and shot his pistols instead, and make the genestealers come to him. Since stealers don't have grenades, he'd be able to use all of his attacks first. He looked at me like I was crazy. <shrug> styles, man.

I don't know...I think people pigeon hole their minds a certain way when they think of khorne. Maybe if they weren't specifically a khorne unit people would look at them differently.

I think in the khorne style of play, berserkers are it. But when I think of marines, I think of them as generalist, do a little bit of everything kind of unit. Specialist units (like eldar) win by doing their specialization. Generalist units win by doing the opposite.

Assault the shooty units, shoot the assaulty units. Or just assault. More skulls for the skull throne...

Berserker pros:
-Vastly better when assaulting Marines.
-Fearless
-No icon

Assaulting Marines may or may not matter to how or where you play.

Bersekers will never be run down. Assault tends to have a very binary outcome. No matter how good something seems in assault, there is something better that is your thing's magic bullet. When it runs into that bullet, it loses, and when you lose assault, you lose the entire unit. Except when you're Fearless.

And lastly, the Icon. Berserkers never lose their extra attack. CSM's will. There's no real way to protect one guy except by taking a zillion dudes in the one squad, 10 is pretty insufficient at it. I'm not saying he's as good as dead when you deploy. I'm saying he'll die before his unit several times, at random, and you can't really do anything about it. You know as well as anyone what controlling random effects has on the outcome of the game.

Having played 10 man CSM squads with marks for dozens of games against effectively the entirety of all codexes, I can say that a 10 man squad doesn't take more than 5-7 wounds on average against enemy units that assault at full strength, something they won't have since you can shoot them with the rest of your army.

You don't lose your mark as fast as you would think, furthermore you would be more likely to fail the armor save on your powerfist for your berzerkers before you would fail the save on your mark or powerfist on your CSM unit.

Now you guys are saying that someones taking 10 berzerkers, with pf and rhino. That's 300 points. For those points, I can run 14 CSM with champ, 2 melta guns and a MOK. Not only does this unit not suffer from losing out when a rhino would be destroyed, but they are carrying anti-tank weapons and will get the charge against rhino users on average.

Furthermore, something no one even bothers with these days, is synergy. If your army has terminators, obliterators or lesser demons in deep strike, they can home in on that icon. That's a huge advantage.

In small numbers, in small points costs, berzerkers are defiantly better overall. But once you start getting up into higher points values, such as 1500+, CSM out shine them in the end.

scuddman wrote:I just don't think in today's mech environment that you can win with an army purely dedicated to hth.

I actually disagree with this statement. The reason I'm comparing the two units in question is because it seems to me that I should expect MoK to have more or at least more consistent killing power when they trade in a little CC for some shooting. I mean this in general, not just in a mech-meta.

DarknessEternal wrote:Bersekers will never be run down. Assault tends to have a very binary outcome. No matter how good something seems in assault, there is something better that is your thing's magic bullet. When it runs into that bullet, it loses, and when you lose assault, you lose the entire unit. Except when you're Fearless.

Berzerkers may never be run down, but CSM will never take fearless saves.

Plus, this sort of misses the point. If a khorne squad is LOSING a combat in any given round, that means that they're not going to win the combat over all (regardless of leadership). It doesn't matter if they run, or if they take no retreat saves, because if they're able to out-chop either of these squads, the unit is going to die by getting killed off. If anything, this is in CSM's favor, because in this kind of horror-case, they actually have the chance to run, avoid a sweep, and regroup, while the berzerkers have no choice but to sit in the meat grinder and get massacred.

DarknessEternal wrote:And lastly, the Icon. Berserkers never lose their extra attack. CSM's will.

Like juraigamer said, I'm not terribly worried about this in most cases. The icon bearer comes with a 3+, so even in high-damage situations, he's still more likely than not to survive. Plus, putting down 10 wounds on space marines is actually kind of tricky, given their statline, and putting down 20 wounds (to cause two on the icon-bearer), well that squad is probably losing close combat anyways, so it's a moot point.

What about no armor saves? Well, if' I'm hit by so many power attacks that I have to put one on the icon bearer, that means that the rest of the squad also has power wounds on it, so the squad is dead regardless. Really, I'm more concerned about rarer things like mind war or vindicare assassins.

Of course, losing the icon is bad, but even if they do, they still just revert to regular CSM, who are still pretty decent in close combat by themselves.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I think of the difference between Berzerkers and Khorne CSM as being somewhat similar to the difference between Slugga and Shoota Boyz.

Oh, this is a good analogy, actually.

BeRzErKeR wrote:When comparing Berzerkers to Khorne CSM, however, you are comparing a specialized anti-infantry assault unit to a generalist 'core' unit.

What? This seems like a really arbitrary distinction. Both units are very similar to each other, I don't see why such a drastic distinction is required.

I mean, like boyz, both of them are assault-oriented troops choice that win by putting down a LOT of attacks.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The only reason, really, to take Khorne CSM over Berzerkers is to use their flexibility by giving them special weapons, which means that you plan to use them in an anti-mech or anti-TEQ role with their melta or plasma, and the assault power is basically a bonus.

Well, instead, think of it more as an insurance policy than a primary reason for taking them. Oblits and havocs (among other things) are out there to handle the heavy armor, so it's not really what the troops are "supposed" to be doing. Both of them are anti-infantry assault squads.

The difference, however, is that there are times when just going straight into the charge isn't necessarily the wisest choice, whether it be because of the specific unit (whether it be something specifically scary like a dreadnought, or something more general like one of the many CC deathstars out there), or because of specific circumstances (like you have less than desired force concentration and you want to cause casualties without getting close enough to get piled on the next turn), or whatever. Bolters and meltaguns are the insurance policy on a unit that, like berzerkers, has a primary goal of getting into CC with weak units.

Of course, their methodology might well be different, but the end result is the same.

BeRzErKeR wrote:This advantage is magnified by the fact that practically all dedicated assault units have a charge range which exceeds rapid-fire range; Any Ork unit on the Waaagh, anything out of a Land Raider, any DE or Eldar assault unit, most Daemon assault units. . . practically anything that WANTS to charge you will charge you from outside of double-tap range practically all of the time. The CSM cannot leverage the advantage of their bolters to score more kills before the fight starts, and the Berzerkers will kill their enemy faster because they will usually hit more often due to WS5.

Sure, but look at this same thing in the other light. Practically all dedicated assault units have the charge range which exceeds that of khorne berzerkers, meaning that against any serious threat, they're not getting the charge in.

Without the charge, all they have is WS5. WS5 only helps against just one target type - against WS4 - everything else you're already hitting on 3's or 4's. It makes them 25% killier against that one target type, for a 40% price hike (which means less durability due to fewer models, or fewer options elsewhere). Outside of this, they're not any better whatsoever when they don't get the charge.

If anything, what we're saying here is that because you're not going to get the charge off against the scary stuff, the berzerkers are really only better against worse CC units than berzerkers (sort of what I was getting at earlier). I'd note, though, that if they're worse than berzerkers, it's highly likely that they're also worse than MoK CSM, so we're talking about a minor upgrade once again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My viewpoint, basically, is that if you're planning on running an assault-centric army then the small cumulative advantages which Berzerkers have make them worthwhile

So, I can certainly understand taking berzerkers when you have some reasonable guarantee of a charge (so, either in the role of counter or follow-up charging, or in a land raider list), but outside of the charge, it's just a single small advantage (well, two if you want to count fearless), which doesn't seem to make them anything special. As such, even in an assault list, it seems that it would still be preferable to have the MoK CSM, because they only lose one (or two) small advantages in order to be able to open up your army from being really one-dimensional. I mean, I did a lot of assaulting with my power blob guard army, but that's not to say I never fired a lasgun, or pumped melta into stuff at point blank range.

It seems to me that to be an "assaulty" army, what you need is to be predominantly assault, and that ONLY assault isn't required, especially if taking a slightly shootier option gives you more options in general, and perhaps more killing power over all.

If CSM break from combat, more often than not they'll get swept. If they aren't, they'll probably have too few members to regroup. Against any serious CC unit, CSM will cause little damage and die instantly. Berserkers will stick around and get more PF swings in.

If you only ever fight Fire Warriors, Tac Squads, Mech Guardsman, and other such rabble, you won't need Berserkers. If CSM with IoK are your sole CC units, you will have no answer for a serious CC army. Space Wolves can easily outshoot us while fielding Cavalry. Orks are faster than us. Dark Eldar can outshoot us and are faster.

It's not that Berserkers will beat everything. It's that nothing else comes as close (except Possessed).

The difference comes in when presented with a tough nut to crack - say a landraider with 5 TH/SS termies inside.
A berzerkers one response is a skull champion with a melta bomb or pounding it with a powerfist. The CSM has the two melta shots, hopefully pens and kills the landraider and then charges the TH/SS termies and hopes to get lucky with his powerfist. The berzerkers are going to settle for killing the landraider on an assault.

It is purely a matter of preference. Do you want the best killiness out of CSM? Take the berzerkers. Do you want a second best unit that is also decent in the firephase? Take the MoK CSM.

It's not that simple. You obviously need both, but this thread is suggesting taking CSM w/ MoK instead of Berserkers. CSM w/ MoK are good against things we've already got covered. They can barely deal damage to things that are difficult for us. Berserkers can actually ruin hard assault units and make them vulnerable, which our shooting can't do.

If we are talking troop killing figure out what it costs to field 10 MoK boys with 2 plasma rifles. You should be able to unload 4 plasma shots (as well as 16 bolter shots) into an enemy. Then figure he charges you and what your response is... Now take the equivalent cost of berzerkers in a rhino and figure you charge him. It is a lot tougher to get the berzerkers into range as you can't move, disembark and charge but it is still doable. That is the real choice you are facing. My bet is that for cost, you are going to come out about even for casualties caused. So now you get down to which is more survivable and that - to me- comes down to circumstance. A berzerker delivering a charge should be superior but that is predicated on my rhino being intact and my opponent obligingly moving a nice assault target withing 8" of my rhino.

Unfortunately darkhound, it is that simple.

You just said there are units that berzerkers will lose against. Let us take TH/SS termies for this example, with 10 berzerkers with pf and then with 14 csm, MOK 2 melta guns and pf.

I'm not gonna bother math hammering it, because it's just theory. What's not theory is you may not always get the charge with berzerkers, and you will lose against this unit. You will then take fearless saves and not be able to shoot this unit next turn.

Were as CSM may still get hit, and may still lose, but can still run. Dedicated CC units tend to be terminators, who can't sweeping advance. CSM run away, might regroup, fire melta and pistols, and then charge next turn. Versatility is key, tactics makes the battle a victory or a loss.

juraigamer wrote:I'm not gonna bother math hammering it, because it's just theory.

So you don't have any evidence. Instead of getting evidence, you're comfortable stating whatever you want as fact?

10 Berserkers getting charged by the Terminators will kill 1.5, then the Terminators will swing for 4 Berserkers and the PF will get another .5 wounds. The Berserkers will win after 3 rounds of combat, suffering 6 casualties.

The CSM will inflict 1 wound, take 5, and the Powerfist will inflict .4 wounds. The CSM take a test on Ld7 or 8 and probably pass. If they pass, they'll die. If not the squad will flee for a turn or possibly two depending on his consolidation roll.

Actually, if the CSM shoot the Terminators (they'll score 1 kill), combat resolution is more even. The CSM are less likely to flee, so are actually doomed.

What was your point again? CSM are better because they'll run from combat after getting mauled? Thanks, but I'll stick with the guys who win.

I don't math hammer, because without showing your work (which takes a lot of time) means everything you wrote could be wrong.

I can already tell your math is wrong, 10 berzerkers with pf in rhino with EA vs 14 CSM with MOK, 2 melta and powerfist, (equal points cost) all that vs 5 TH/SS termies. You need to give the variables for if they do or don't charge, shooting that could occur before melee, ect ect.

But

This DOESN'T mean jack. Watch me drop two plasma cannons on the terminators with some support on the field on the terminators. Watch the rest of my army support the berzerkers or CSM.

In strictly 1v1 terms, berzerkers are melee only, and will do slightly better than CSM if the berzerkers charge, if we count both units shooting before hand. Slightly better, for a less versatile unit, isn't slightly better, it's worse.

Besides, 10 berzerkers in a rhino that blows up will lose 1-2 berzerkers on average. A unit of 14 CSM will get shot at as they walk, but they should have cover or armor against all shots.

Furthermore, berzerkers will lose against dedicated CC units. If both CSM and berzerkers will lose against such units, why not take CSM so they can shoot their bolters and meltas ahead of time?

If you want evidence, table top experience using these units is the best you can get. That's what I'm basing my posts and claims on, not math hammer. Dice lie.

juraigamer wrote:I don't math hammer, because without showing your work (which takes a lot of time) means everything you wrote could be wrong.

So I actually can't write anything that would be considered proof in your eyes?

If you want evidence, table top experience using these units is the best you can get. That's what I'm basing my posts and claims on, not math hammer. Dice lie.

If you want evidence, trust the dice you see on the tabletop. After all, they lie less often than the math!

Equal point cost is less important than representing the units as they would actually be fielded. You don't have 14 CSM walk around the board. You have 10 of them in a Rhino. Shooting that could occur before hand is moot, except as it relates to the unit in question. I could have 2 Obliterators shoot at the Terminators before hand in both circumstances. It changes the results evenly, so the Berserkers will still always come out ahead.

Besides, 10 berzerkers in a rhino that blows up will lose 1-2 berzerkers on average. A unit of 14 CSM will get shot at as they walk, but they should have cover or armor against all shots.

That is dumb. You imply that 14 CSM walking is more durable, but to prove that you'd need to show that CSM are less likely to take 2 casualties than the Berserkers are. Given how miniscule the chance of a Rhino exploding is, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. A squad of CSM is also tremendously slower, given that they only move 3.5" a turn in cover, compared to the 12" a Rhino can move (and still get cover due to smoke).

You take Berserkers because, even though they'll lose, they make an impact. They will strip a deathstar of it's wound allocation shenanigans more effectively than any shooting or close combat we have. A CSM squad shooting for 1 turn before being swept doesn't come close to the damage Berserkers can do over 2 rounds.

Amen

EDIT - which all is besides the point that they are foul heretics and need to be gunned down for the scum they are.

Good points all around. I don't know about berserkers stopping any deathstars. I say meq, but they struggle against any high intiative power weapon unit.

Banshees, incubi, even to a lesser extent units like harlequins and genestealers. And they lose terribly to any grey knight hth build because the grey knights are initiative 6 with power weapons.

That doesn't mean that they're bad, but they're not thunderhammer/stormshield terminators with a chaplain or grey knight paladins or something.

Like blood angel assault marines, it comes down to the charge. If they aren't charging, the only real difference is WS 5, fearless, and a hefty price tag.

I actually feel like it's an apples to oranges comparison. A closer comparison would be blood angel assault marines.

DarkHound wrote:If CSM break from combat, more often than not they'll get swept. If they aren't, they'll probably have too few members to regroup. Against any serious CC unit, CSM will cause little damage and die instantly. Berserkers will stick around and get more PF swings in.

Can you provide an example of something that will both break CSM AND will still leave berzerkers alive long enough to get more than one round of power fisting in?

DarkHound wrote: Space Wolves can easily outshoot us while fielding Cavalry. Orks are faster than us. Dark Eldar can outshoot us and are faster.

Right, and against these armies, berzerkers are getting outshot, and denied the charge. They're not better here, just more expensive.

DarkHound wrote: It's not that Berserkers will beat everything. It's that nothing else comes as close (except Possessed).

DarkHound wrote: They can barely deal damage to things that are difficult for us. Berserkers can actually ruin hard assault units and make them vulnerable, which our shooting can't do.

Once again, show me something that berzerkers handle that MoK CSM "dont' even come close" to handling.

I'm hearing a lot of talk about how much better berszerkers are, but I'm still waiting for some substantiation.

DarkHound wrote:10 Berserkers getting charged by the Terminators will kill 1.5, then the Terminators will swing for 4 Berserkers and the PF will get another .5 wounds. The Berserkers will win after 3 rounds of combat, suffering 6 casualties.

... finally, an actual example.

The one thing I'd note, though, is that these berzerkers are within a rounding error of disaster. If that 1.5 turns up a 1 rather than a 2 on any particular charge, then the first round ends up 3 v 5. The most likely end result is that the termies win in the end. What I'm saying is that the berzerkers can survive a termie charge here, but it's far from a slam-dunk. With even slightly bad luck, they're in the same place as the MoK CSM.

DarkHound wrote:The CSM will inflict 1 wound, take 5, and the Powerfist will inflict .4 wounds. The CSM take a test on Ld7 or 8 and probably pass. If they pass, they'll die. If not the squad will flee for a turn or possibly two depending on his consolidation roll.

And the same is true for the CSM squad. If that 1.4 rounds up (like it did for the berzerkers), the first round ends 3 v 6. The next round, they're a 1.7 that if it rounds up to 2 sees the end of the next round as 1 v 3.5, etc. The CSM can still win with their champ left.

DarkHound wrote: if the CSM shoot the Terminators (they'll score 1 kill), combat resolution is more even.

Actually, the CSM rules face in this case. Shooting with bolters and meltas means that the CSM are looking at the end of the first round being 2 v. 7, with the end result of leaving combat in turn 3 with 6 models left to the berzerkers' 4.

I suppose the real question is if it's more difficult for those terminators to deny CSM's 18" bolter and melta threat range, or to deny the berzerker's 12" charge range.

It's nice to see an example, but this one is somewhat mixed, to say the least. In perfect circumstances (get to shoot and charge), both the MoK CSM and the berzerkers handle the the termies handily. In less perfect circumstances (shooting but no charge), the CSM come out slightly ahead, and only in the worst case scenario (no shooting OR charging), do the berzerkers pull off a victory with a few models remaining, rather than a defeat with a couple of the enemy's left (if the berzerkers have dice on their side, and the CSM don't).

The question, then, is if it's worth it to take berzerkers for just this worse case scenario, or is there a bunch of stuff that berzerkers are able to clearly come out ahead where the CSM fail?

It's funny because nurgle and tzeentch gain a LOT by upgrading to god warriors. Gaining an astounding 4+ invul save with Ap3 bolters and Feel no frikkin pain are HUGE upgrades compared to their icon'd alternatives (though I could still see the uses of marked CSM in single-god lists of those types).

I just wanted to respond to this. Tzeentch marines serve a completely different purpose than Thousand Sons. The 'astounding' 4+ invulnerable is only 1 better than the 5+ on marked Marines. You're 'upgrading' to AP3 bolters while losing melta and a powerfist for a force weapon and a psychic power that isn't nearly as good as two meltaguns. You're losing an attack in close combat and losing frag and krak grenades. You 'gain' slow and purposeful. Thousand Sons are 4 more points per model than a squad of 10 Marines with an icon.

I run a Tzeentch-only army and Thousand Sons and Tzeentch-marked Marines are basically entirely different units serving very different battlefield roles.

Ailaros wrote:Can you provide an example of something that will both break CSM AND will still leave berzerkers alive long enough to get more than one round of power fisting in?

Off the top of my head: Thunderwolf Cavalry, but you're missing the point. Berserkers don't need more than 1 round to strip 5 or 6 wounds off a Deathstar. That's why you take them. CSM don't have the power to do that, and instead are swept. I could have answered that by quoting myself.

Ailaros wrote:Once again, show me something that berzerkers handle that MoK CSM "dont' even come close" to handling.

Darkhound, 2 pages ago wrote:Berserkers do exceptionally well against Sluggas: they trade 3 Berserkers for 27 Sluggas (3 from pistols, 15 from attacks, 9 from combat resolution), then finish them off on the following turn. Under the same conditions, 10 CSM kill a grand total of 17 (4 from shooting, 9 from attacks, 4 from resolution) at the cost of 4. The following round they kill 5 but lose 3, and are finished off in the next round of combat.

EDIT:

Ailaros wrote:In perfect circumstances (get to shoot and charge), both the MoK CSM and the berzerkers handle the the termies handily. In less perfect circumstances (shooting but no charge), the CSM come out slightly ahead, and only in the worst case scenario (no shooting OR charging), do the berzerkers pull off a victory with a few models remaining, rather than a defeat with a couple of the enemy's left (if the berzerkers have dice on their side, and the CSM don't).

The bolded bit was one of the first things we talked about. You don't get to shoot then receive a charge from a weakened unit. Either the Berserkers win more handily than the CSM, or they win at all. The middle ground consists of the CSM spending a turn in the open getting shot at, then hammered.