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@Ailaros: The situation with MoK dudes doubletapping DW termies to allow me the charge literally just happened to me three days ago. They shot, and killed two and I took fire from somewhere else and lost another one. The difference here, is that on my turn, I thinned down his squad to about 5 or 6 guys remaining before I charged. Charging in against a full squad with 3 attacks standing is not smart. So, unless they are the last two units on the table, the scenarios you presented aren't exactly realistic.
On the other hand, that is also anecdotal evidence so take it with the grain of salt it's worth.

DarkHound wrote:
Besides, the point of Berserkers isn't how well they kill rabble. They really shine when assaulting other dedicated assault units, smashing them on a point-for-point basis. Your CSM require both shooting and close combat to get numbers even close. Who is going to charge 11 CSM with half a horde of boyz? In that case your CSM are missing a whole bunch of kills.

exactly
Zerkers dont do too well against Incubi, but they do a hell of a lot better than CSM, even with MoK. More so depending on the charge. There are a lot of things out there with WS4 and a few with WS5. Sure if your fighting guardsmen then WS4 is where to be and Str 4 is enough for anything but how many dedicated assualt units have WS3 T3?

At the point you are thinking of rapid firing with their bolters you might as well just not take MoK or Zerkers at all.

One thing not covered fully is that regardless of total killing power, close combat killing power comes with a corresponding negative morale or break check bonus. Versus ws4 t4 orks.

So 8 berzerkers, 28 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds, 10 unsaved wounds. The fist deals another 2.

10 Khorne Chaos space marines get 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 7.5 unsaved. Fist we will say still gets 2.

Now, if we allow only the khorne csm to shoot, and give them 20 bolter attacks. With orks in cover, that is 3 more orks. Those 3 orks would swing a combat, if choppa boyz, by .5 wounds. Considering that Berzerkers win by an additional 2.5 wounds, we drop this number by .5 to account for 20 bolter style shots that we only give the csm.

This means the berserkers still win by 2 more, which results in 1.7 more kills from fearless saves, or an additional -2 to the break check. With fearless saves, the Bersekers still end up killing more orks than khorne csm that are allowed 20 bolter shots beforehand. With a break check, it should go without saying that the additional -2 can be the difference between the unit staying or fleeing, greatly boosting the kill difference in the Berserkers favor.

Finally, yes it is true that Khorne CSM can also get 2 meltaguns. This is pretty good, dont get me wrong. However, plague marines get 2 melta guns as well, for a lower initial cost, and their toughness still makes them deadly in combat versus non-deathstars. So the more value we place on having meltaguns, the more that other options become valid. Like choosen for that matter--if melta on your csm is great, then 4 melta on your choosen will be even better, right? Or havocs, or terminators, or combimelta rhinos.

Hope that makes sense.

MoK marines beat MoN as far as close combat killing power is concerned. Reducing the number of enemy attacks by killing them gets you more durability in the end than +1T, it turns out.

Exergy wrote:At the point you are thinking of rapid firing with their bolters you might as well just not take MoK or Zerkers at all.

The point is that you have space marines that lose ATSKNF in order to be 3x better in close combat. That's still a good thing.

Plus, why does having a shooty element in an army negate the choppy element of it.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, why does having a shooty element in an army negate the choppy element of it.

It's all about target opportunity. Giving the CSM squad MoK only makes it better against things it could already engage. It will still get wrecked by dedicated combat units like Slugga Boys, Gaunts, Nobs, Terminators, and Wolf-cavalry. CSM don't need to be any better at killing Tactical Marines and Guardsman, so why would you pay 35 points for it?

Actually I think IoK + the option of Rapid Firing gives you a respectable matchup against Ork Boyz and against Gaunts. Top-shelf assaulters like assault terminators or thunderwolves will still kick you around, of course.

Right, so the real question is what does +1 WS and a couple other bonuses on a charge you may or may not get turn "regular chaos marines" into something that can handle "top-shelf assaulters"?

Put another way, what can berzerkers handle that MoK CSM can not?

+1WS, especially on the fist, adds significantly to effect. Furious Assault really is good, especially in an army which can use Lash to set up more and better assaults.

The fact that both squads max out at 10 models in a transport means that the berserkers hit harder with the models you're likely to have in the fight. 11 CSMs is a better match for points to 10 berserkers, but you will rarely have 11 CSMs in a fight.

That doesn't really answer the question, though. What can berzerkers handle that MoK CSM can't?

I'm not saying that berzerkers aren't better in close combat, I'm wondering if there is enough of that better, or that they're better in a more expansive way, or whatever, that they can do things that the MoK just can't.

I mean, I already know some of the answer to the opposite of this question - MoK CSM are better against boyz because they can shoot first while still attacking first, and they're better against dreadnoughts or other low toughness, poor armor save, high-killy CC units, against which they don't have to charge in to be useful, etc.

What is the bigger argument for berzerkers other than "they do the same things in close combat only slightly moreso for a small price hike"?

Well, I think they do it more than slightly moreso. Without Furious Assault, +1WS is a slight improvement. With it, they really do hit a lot harder.

Fearless is also nice. If you give the CSMs IoK you don't have the morale re-roll from IoCG. And CSM will always be subject to the occasional blown pinning check.

I do think I'd rather have the CSMs in most situations, which is probably why my tournament-winning lists usually run two squads of CSMs, and no more than one squad of berserkers.

I'm not really sure you're going to find a clear answer here.

MoK CSM are better in assault, but, as Darkhound and Mannahnin have said, it doesn't help them much against real CC threats.

Berzerkers are obviously better at killing those CC units your CSM can't, and are a bit inefficient at killing lesser stuff like Guardsmen.

I think you just need to mitigate the weakness of each unit: Berzerkers need Melta and trash sweepers, while MoK CSM like something tough in CC to deal with scary Hammernators and the like.

I feel it really depends on personal preference and the particular list, mostly.

Mannahnin wrote: they really do hit harder.

I know they hit harder, that's not the question. The question is if the amount extra harder they hit actually makes a difference.

Mannahnin wrote:I do think I'd rather have the CSMs in most situations

Why?

odorofdeath wrote:Berzerkers are obviously better at killing those CC units your CSM can't

Which units?

What are units that MoK CSM can't kill that, with the addition of FC and +1WS, berzerkers can.

I'm trying to peel off those units that berzerkers do slightly better, but MoK CSM can already to pretty well (like killing guardsmen), and those units that berzerkers do slightly better, but both berzerkers and MoK CSM still lose in the end (like fighting big LC termie squads). What I'm looking for is a real difference, not just "they have a better stat line, so they're better".

You know, something that actually makes up for the fact that they don't have bolters or meltaguns.

Zerkers are great in cover heavy tables. CSM are better on more open tables. I will also deploy havocs with MLs and autocannons as backup for zerkers because it makes it a lot easier for them steamroll CC and horde targets. They do not fair well in rounds after their initial hit, but they make wonderful shock troopers. I primarily play against orks, SM, and crons, so your DE input is being committed to memory, as I hope to start playing some new people soonish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros, Zerkers are better than CSM at murdering units that are not very good in CC in my experience, but MoN and a power fist seems to do better against units with higher toughness in protracted combat. I had not taken Bile into account, and I might give that a proxied whirl for giggles.

What are units that MoK CSM can't kill that, with the addition of FC and +1WS, berzerkers can.

Anything better than a Tactical squad, since anything better than that in CC will break the MoK CSM, and.... poof. Genstealers, AG/TS Hormagaunts, BA Assault Marines, Purifiers/Strike Squad... etc.

I showed in my post above that CSM with 20 bolter shots and 10 models are worse than 8 berzerkers versus orks. Even if the Khorne CSM deal a similiar total amount of wounds to the Berzerkers, the Berserkers deal their wounds in CC, which means they deal extra fearless wounds and they deal extra morale penalties. This is a big deal.

In addition, there are things that make even LD10 armies cry. Like weaken resolve and fear the darkness. Now, if the Khorne CSM squad is your dedicated CC unit, then guess what unit is going to be targeted by such powers? Fearless troops never let you down, on the other hand.

Add to this that some units ignore s4 attacks, but not s5 attacks, and some units deal lots of wounds at init 4, so berzerkers at init5 take less if any casualties.

Oh definitely. Zerkers will hurt a tac squad. An assault squad is a different matter, though. I didn't say zerkers were bad, I said they were situational. They are really good at hitting a target hard and fast, but they are really bad in sustained combat. A tac squad is.... SM filler, pretty much. A CSM squad is better than a tac squad as long as they bring ANY mark. They don't even need fancy guns, just a mark.

Munga wrote:MoN and a power fist seems to do better against units with higher toughness in protracted combat.

I actaully wasn't terribly impressed when I ran nurgle's numbers and there were some situations in which plague marines (which get the benefit of FNP), were shockingly worse against (like orks).

Really, it turns out that you limit your damage taken by killing your opponent's stuff quickly than by trying to outlast them with toughness, especially when they can bring high S stuff like hidden power fists that kill all non-tzeentch CSM units equally.

Munga wrote:They are really good at hitting a target hard and fast, but they are really bad in sustained combat.

You're actually missing the point, here. Khorne kills stuff so quickly that there IS no sustained combat. Nurgle units get into attrition battles because they're high toughness and low damage. Khorne units don't because, one way or another, that close combat is getting resolved in three player turns or, much more commonly, less.

odorofdeath wrote:Anything better than a Tactical squad, since anything better than that in CC will break the MoK CSM, and.... poof. Genstealers, AG/TS Hormagaunts, BA Assault Marines, Purifiers/Strike Squad... etc.

What? It's actually really hard to win any given round of combat against either CSM or berzerkers. Plus, just winning doesn't mean that they'll break. Guardsmen need stubborn because they tend to lose every round of combat by high single digits (until, of course, they win by default), not quite such is the deal with khorne units.

DevianID wrote:I showed in my post above that CSM with 20 bolter shots and 10 models are worse than 8 berzerkers versus orks.

Yeah, that was seen and ignored. The math shows that we're only talking about a couple more fearless saves than the MoK, so it's not a big deal (as in, it doesn't even catch up with the bolters). More importantly, the berzerkers are only better if they get the charge in, and given that boyz get fleet, that doesn't seem likely. In a matchup with MoK boltering and not getting the charge in and berzerkers also not getting the charge in (which is the most likely circumstance), MoK WAY beat out the berzerkers - by MUCH more of a margin than the berzerkers beat the MoK CSM if they do.

DevianID wrote:there are things that make even LD10 armies cry. Like weaken resolve and fear the darkness. Fearless troops never let you down, on the other hand.

Right, so I've been considering this, and wondering if it really is so big of a deal. You've just described two extremely specific circumstances where fearless is better. I can't really think of many more, and the two stated are already not that common.

DevianID wrote:Add to this that some units ignore s4 attacks, but not s5 attacks

Which falls into the category of something both of them are bad at.

DevianID wrote:and some units deal lots of wounds at init 4, so berzerkers at init5 take less if any casualties.

And so, honestly, does this. I can't think of a situation where your "if any" assertion is true on the one hand, and on the other, the MoK marines would have the ability to actually bypass entering into close combat with such a dangerous unit, while the berzerkers don't have such a choice.

With proper fieldcraft, anything in a transport will always get the charge on footsloggers. The footsloggers should be running a KFF, so your Bolters and Meltaguns will get 4 kills. The Berserkers will score 9 kills from combat resolution, and 15 besides. The CSM don't even come close.

Berserkers give Deathstars pause. Furious Charge gives Berserkers the initiative to deal all of their damage against most Deathstars. Though a Berserker squad probably won't kill a 400 point Nob squad, they'll eat through the wound allocation. That Thunderwolf Cavalry is going to wait until it is certain it won't receive a counter-charge before engaging, because otherwise the Berserkers will, again, make them very vulnerable. If a squad of CSM were to engage either of those, the opponent would get a free consolidation move.

EDIT: It's actually easier to list the things it isn't a good idea to charge with Berserkers: anything Grey Knight, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and Landraiders. I think I got them all.

DarkHound wrote:With proper fieldcraft, anything in a transport will always get the charge on footsloggers.

I'm actually starting to get the impression that berzerkers really need to be mechanized, or they're just not worth taking.

It can be tricky to get a charge in in general, but against anything with fleet, or some other form of special maneuverability it's practically impossible.

I would note here still, though, that rhinos are really easy to destroy, and a rhino filled with berzerkers is going to be a pretty high-priority target. I'm almost thinking that it's never worth fielding more than one squad of them unless you're running a land raider list.

DarkHound wrote:Berserkers give Deathstars pause.

Which deathstars can berzerkers relatively easily handle that MoK would seriously struggle with?

For instance, that 400 point Nob Squad will break the CSM squad after sustaining 1 casualty. The Khorne Berserkers will stick around for another go, getting twice as many wounds.

but they still lose horribly, right?

This would be something that neither CMS nor berzerkers do well at, even if the berzerkers do a little better.

If the berserkers sufficiently weaken it that you can finish it off later, that's valuable.

So, what's good is that they do slightly more damage?

It's basically a question of force concentration; in this case not only across number of models, but also through time.

Berzerkers do as much damage in the Assault phase as MoK CSM do in the Shooting and Assault phases together, while having slightly fewer models. They're a bit handier, and a bit easier to use because of that; also, they have a somewhat larger list of targets. The difference isn't huge, but it does exist.

There is also the psychological effect; people THINK of Berzerkers as a much scarier assault unit than MoK CSM, and so will tend to react more strongly to them. That can be manipulated, although it can't be accounted for through mathhammer.

For slightly more points.

CSM all the way. Meta be dammed.

*cough* use BOTH *cough*

That's just my view - CSM is strong because of strong troops, so I never take less than 3 troops choices (1 bezerker squad, 1 cc MOK CSM squad, 1 long-range CSM squad)

Jura, it may be slightly more points per model, but the smaller unit and no icon means the csm is costlier than berserkers.

And to those that think rhinos are easy to destroy, let me tell you that is horribly wrong.

Consider that it takes 3 las cannons to wreck, 4.5 to pen, and about 7 to hit. So 7 las cannons for a 35 point vee. Hence why av11 vehicles are spammed so much.

Hmm, I don't think the close combat comparisons are the fair/correct way to compare them. Obviously berserkers are superior in hth, so what is the difference?

Shooting. Mok chaos marines can have either 2 specials plus a combi of choice or a heavy weapon + special. THat means mok chaos marines can pop a land raider where berserkers can only look at them funny. It means if MoK marines are on an objective with a heavy ] they can do something.

I feel the two units serve different roles. MoK marines play like...grey hunters with more options. Berserkers do one thing, and they don't even do that one thing better than other units in 40k.

That's why I think Mok troops are better...you have options against units you can't beat in hth. Berserkers...have nothing.

Small unit?

I said well ago on the first page that you take berzerkers in small units, and CSM in large.

Instead of using analogies based on equal numbers of not equal units, make the comparision with equal points costs.

Furthermore you're just math hammering, which is fine in theory, but on the table I can wreck all your transports in 1 turn with good rolls.

I walk. Then I run. I don't give up kill points using transports, I don't use small units of csm, I use large ones. I win games, even against other csm players spamming berzerkers in transports.

I use CSM because they are versatile, unlike berzerkers. I use csm because they can take special weapons, berzerkers can take plasma pistols, worthless. CSM can rapid fire bolters, or take long range shots. berzerkers are still stuck with pistols. Furthermore my CSM can take 2 melta guns, meaning the unit can and will kill anything it comes across.

Berzerkers are ultimately stupid units. Point and shoot/get into melee. Melee specialists. Good if you need strong melee units in the army, but the entire CSM book is strong melee forces.

Furthermore berzerkers will die faster on the way to their target, anyone think of this? If I shoot you with a bunch of bolter shots against a unit of berzerkers and CSM, you will lose more points and ultimately more effectiveness with losing berzerkers.

No one in their right mind would run small units of CSM with marks, when they could run cult marines. But infantry is what CSM does best, and the more on the field, the better your odds.

And don't get me started on rhinos, useless point sinks and easy kill points. You have to spend 50 points on a rhino, base to make it useful. That 50 points is easily 3 CSM and an upgrade, or 2 berzerkers. What's better, losing that much in points to a single anti-tank shot, or taking a cover save against that shot on a single one of those models?

Most rhino spam armies could fit an entire extra troops choice on the field or more if they took out the rhinos.

Ailaros wrote:So, what's good is that they do slightly more damage?

That's a tremendous understatement, and I'm getting bored of pointing that out. CSM would do half as much damage and flee from combat, giving him a free D6 move. You'll begin to notice a trend when comparing the CSM to Deathstars. Berserkers are just dumb enough to stick around and hit them with their Powerfist again.

If you want something really useful in close combat, take Berserkers or Possessed. IoK increases the CSM's price by 15%, but doesn't make them better against anything useful.